Any one else's unshod/barefoot horses feeling their feet in this weather?

Broke_But_Happy said:
Cptrayes, thank you - he's a cob so not fussy at all! :rolleyes: I will look into those.

Hollyhocks - yes that is exactly what he does, but he also strides out better on the rounded stones/grass/tarmac - hence the reason I thought he was 'footy'.
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BBH - the reason I ask is because if a horse steps on a random stone - my thought was that they took an "off" step in order to not step on the stone with their full weight in order to minimise a bruise - similar to the way we would....
I took my TB mare out for her first 40 minute long-rein this morning without her hoof boots and she walked down narrow lanes with random stones on and didn't stumble at all. However there is one part of the road which has larger, sharper more isolated stones on, and she took a little more care on that area. But then when she was shod, and when my last gelding was shod, they did exactly the same at that same area....
 
Holly Hocks said:
CPT - can I just ask you a question please? :)

OP said in her post above that her horse is sound on tarmac and rounded stones, but still "footy" on sharp stones. Would it not be normal for any horse to take...what can I call it....an "off" step if they were to randomly step on an isolated stone, in order to self-prevent themselves getting a bruise? (I hope you can make sense of that question!)
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D'ya know HH this is something I laugh hollowly about on a frequent basis. A barefoot horse steps on a sharp stone, can feel it, and is sensible enough to remove its foot quickly so it does not get hurt, and a load of barefoot-antis take a sharp intake of breath and say "that horse is in pain!!!". Meanwhile, a shod horse whose foot is numb treads on a sharp stone that's bigger than the depth of its shoe and leaves its weight there long enough to cause a bruise that keeps it off work for a week. That's just "bad luck", think the barefoot-antis.

Nic Barker is routinely got at by people (usually farriers) who watch video of her horses hunting stony Exmoor tracks because they shorten their stride going downhill. In their opinion, this proves her horses are not really sound. In our opinion, of course, it proves her horses can feel their own feet and choose to shorten their stride on a steep hill to stay in balance, much as a human runner would on similar loose stone.


Go figure :) !!
 
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cptrayes said:
D'ya know HH this is something I laugh hollowly about on a frequent basis. A barefoot horse steps on a sharp stone, can feel it, and is sensible enough to remove its foot quickly so it does not get hurt, and a load of barefoot-antis take a sharp intake of breath and say "that horse is in pain!!!". Meanwhile, a shod horse whose foot is numb treads on a sharp stone that's bigger than the depth of its shoe and leaves its weight there long enough to cause a bruise that keeps it off work for a week. That's just "bad luck", think the barefoot-antis.

Go figure :) !!
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Thank you C - you've put my mind at rest. I'd read the earlier posts and was starting to get paranoid!! It would seem my horse is just sensible then.....oh and just wanted to let you know that her feet are going from strength to strength (I PM'd you a while ago about her navicular, spavin, PSLD and arthritis!).

BBH - it could be just that you have a sensible horse - not a footy one!

Cortez - I have a lot of respect for you, but my horse was written off by every vet who she came into contact with and I was advised PTS, or field companion. If it hadn't been for the help I received from CPT, Oberon and others on here, I may have followed the vet's advice. However I didn't, and I now have a horse I can finally ride again....
 
cptrayes said:
No one sane would Cortez.

But there are many of us who would not have a horse who had been fine for 18 months without shoes shod because it suddenly went footie for 10 days, as you have. Some of us would prefer to investigate what has changed that means our horse can no longer cope, because it is usually an issue that will affect the health of the whole horse, not just its feet.
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Well, the "investigation" found that the hoof was wearing down and chipping, resulting in my lovely, hardworking, display and stunt horse having very sore feet. So we put shoes on and she is no longer lame (this is what sore means, BTW). Before you all start doing amateur analyses of what she has for breakfast, NOTHING has changed in her diet of 11 years (she, as are all my working horses, is entirely fibre fed), and they are all off the grass as of May. I do shoe my horses occassionally, when they are sore, which is usually when they are working harder than normal, which logically would seem to mean that the hoof wears down faster than it can grow. Working, for a movie horse, is real, old fashioned, 12 hours a day hard graft, BTW.
 
Frank has at last learnt that standing there with your back leg in the air is not the ultimate solution for when you stand on a stone.. and you can put it back down again.

bbh.. mines a cob.. he's fussy :p ;) (awkward bugger!)
 
'If your horse was mine I would have him off the grass completely for three days and see how unhappy he was on the stones then. You've had him nearly six years and one spot of footiness and on go a set of shoes? Makes no sense to me but if you want to waste your money that way and possibly risk your horse going lami without you being able to see the warning signs that's entirely up to you. '
This is what we mean when we say shoving it down peoples throats. OP has stated measures she has taken. I have never yet seen a horse that is 'footy' (i.e lame..) have a laminitis attack after having shoes put on. In fact they've always walked away sound and comfortable-a key thing for an animal. Horse is uncomfortable-do something to improve it.
 
Cortez said:
Well, the "investigation" found that the hoof was wearing down and chipping, resulting in my lovely, hardworking, display and stunt horse having very sore feet. So we put shoes on and she is no longer lame (this is what sore means, BTW). Before you all start doing amateur analyses of what she has for breakfast, NOTHING has changed in her diet of 11 years (she, as are all my working horses, is entirely fibre fed), and they are all off the grass as of May. I do shoe my horses occassionally, when they are sore, which is usually when they are working harder than normal, which logically would seem to mean that the hoof wears down faster than it can grow. Working, for a movie horse, is real, old fashioned, 12 hours a day hard graft, BTW.
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So there we have the answer, don't we? You need shoes for exactly the same reason that shoes were invented - to enable people to use horses as machines.

I don't think you should have waited until your horse was "very sore" to do something to help her, by the way.

Personally, I work hard to make sure that my horses are routinely doing the amount of work that I want them to do at peak times. That means that their feet are growing fast enough to cope with the wear. For my hunter, I cannot suddenly spring a greater workload on his feet than last month, otherwise his growth will not match his wear.

If you don't want to do that, fine, shoe. But don't kid yourself. Your horses need shoes because of how you work them, not because that work would be too much for their feet if they were routinely conditioned to it.
 
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SusieT said:
'If your horse was mine I would have him off the grass completely for three days and see how unhappy he was on the stones then. You've had him nearly six years and one spot of footiness and on go a set of shoes? Makes no sense to me but if you want to waste your money that way and possibly risk your horse going lami without you being able to see the warning signs that's entirely up to you. '
This is what we mean when we say shoving it down peoples throats. OP has stated measures she has taken. I have never yet seen a horse that is 'footy' (i.e lame..) have a laminitis attack after having shoes put on. In fact they've always walked away sound and comfortable-a key thing for an animal. Horse is uncomfortable-do something to improve it.
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I don't see the OP getting upset about what I have posted Susie, why are you wading in on her behalf? Have you actually got anything postive to add to her discussion or did you just barge in here to have a go at me like normal?

Why do YOU think she posted? Just to tell us that she'd put him on the shoeing list for next week? No, of course not. She posted looking for support for that decision or more information to help her avoid it, which is all I have been giving. Unless you can add something constructive why do you waste your time?

By the way I'm still waiting for your apology for suggesting that I was having my wobbler shot to suit myself and not because it was the best thing for him.
 
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If a horse stands on a stone I would expect him to say "ouch" and save himself, that doesn't mean he is lame, but if he shortens and "potters", doesn't want to turn or cross his feet, this means he is sore and every step hurts - just watch kids going barefoot over stones.
 
SusieT said:
'If your horse was mine I would have him off the grass completely for three days and see how unhappy he was on the stones then. You've had him nearly six years and one spot of footiness and on go a set of shoes? Makes no sense to me but if you want to waste your money that way and possibly risk your horse going lami without you being able to see the warning signs that's entirely up to you. '
This is what we mean when we say shoving it down peoples throats. OP has stated measures she has taken. I have never yet seen a horse that is 'footy' (i.e lame..) have a laminitis attack after having shoes put on. In fact they've always walked away sound and comfortable-a key thing for an animal. Horse is uncomfortable-do something to improve it.
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Sorry, can you just clarify your post please?
 
Cptrayes, my horses are not machines, they are horses which have a job, they are not pets either but their wellbeing is paramount. I keep all my horses unshod whenever possible as I believe, as I gather do you, that this is the healthiest way for them. However, when they are lame they are not healthy, if they are lame because their feet cannot cope with the amount of work they do then they are shod. When their workload allows they will go back to being unshod. I believe that probably the vast majority of horses do not need shoes. Some do, and I also believe that continuing to allow horses which are plainly lame to hobble about in the name of a barefoot crusade is WRONG.
 
First bit as a quote, second was a reply-to clarify-if he's lame without shoes and you cannot find a cause-shoe him, I have yet to see a horse go down with laminitis after being shod when not coping without shoes.
 
SusieT said:
First bit as a quote, second was a reply-to clarify-if he's lame without shoes and you cannot find a cause-shoe him, I have yet to see a horse go down with laminitis after being shod when not coping without shoes.
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Maybe not full-blown laminitis, but shoes do a very good job of masking LGL.

And I have to say, hammering nails into a sore foot doesn't sit right with me.
 
Cptrayes thank you for your post about stride shortening and stepping on odd sharp stones, that's given me the reassurance that I needed having taken my boy off road on a stony track today and been concerned about how he managed it, much shorter strides downhill and avoiding the sections with slightly larger boulders on them.

Whilst I have nothing against shoes some of us are unable to go back to them due to lameness issues, for example my cob was lame on and off for several months before going barefoot. Hasn't had a lame day since so I have no intention of shoeing him again.

Personally I'm much happier that my horse moves easily and is obviously more comfortable than he was in shoes. I know this because both my osteopath and my riding instructor have commented on the difference in him since he returned from Rockley.

I'm all for everyone doing what works for them and nobody causing their horses any pain but I do think barefoot is something you need to be totally committed to. It doesn't work if you aren't unfortunately. That doesn't mean I think there's anything wrong with a decision to shoe by anyone else, just that I would do everything in my power to make sure my horse is comfortable in his own feet.

As with the OP, I wouldn't have a sound riding horse without the likes of Cptrayes and Oberon so I'll be eternally grateful to them for taking the time to give me the information and advice they did. Thanks guys. :) xx
 
If a horse is too sore to shoe then it needs rest on a soft surface until the feet can take shoeing-most sensitive horses don't seem to notice shoes being 'banged' on. Hoof boots can also be used if you can't get them comfortable enough to get the shoes on for some reason. Low grade laminitis is widely diagnosed by amateurs-but really, if you look at the pathology LGL makes very little sense as a diagnosis-or more horses would be going full blown laminitic..
 
SusieT said:
. Low grade laminitis is widely diagnosed by amateurs-but really, if you look at the pathology LGL makes very little sense as a diagnosis-or more horses would be going full blown laminitic..
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In what way does it not make sense?
 
Quote de SusieT
. Low grade laminitis is widely diagnosed by amateurs-but really, if you look at the pathology LGL makes very little sense as a diagnosis-or more horses would be going full blown laminitic.

Susie T. Please do explain this further.....if you can???
 
Broke_But_Happy said:
Cptrayes, thank you - he's a cob so not fussy at all! :rolleyes: I will look into those.

Hollyhocks - yes that is exactly what he does, but he also strides out better on the rounded stones/grass/tarmac - hence the reason I thought he was 'footy'.
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Here too

My gelding has been barefoot all his life we are very stony here and went footy when the ground is stony.

He now has front shoes on and is a different horse.

He is not fat has not got LGL
no related syndromes to met.

Its the ground as he never hacked out much before. Hence why I left him, barefoot. He wont go barefoot again unless he is off work or retired.

Some horses feet and frogs do get softer when they are living out or standing in a damp environment.
 
There was a time in my barefoot journey, when I would not have seen a reason to shoe again, ever. However, the walking, eating machine, that is the horse, needs the appropriate diet and exercise, hacking probably the best form. If you cannot give the unshod horse all he needs, then he is not barefoot. He is in a limbo, of not one thing or the other.
If he is not truly barefoot, he is an unshod horse with sore feet.
If as an owner, you cannot give the barefoot horse what he needs, for whatever reason, shoe him.
The barefoot route needs a management system, at a far higher level and not everyone can do it, far better to shoe in these circumstances.
 
Pale Rider said:
There was a time in my barefoot journey, when I would not have seen a reason to shoe again, ever. However, the walking, eating machine, that is the horse, needs the appropriate diet and exercise, hacking probably the best form. If you cannot give the unshod horse all he needs, then he is not barefoot. He is in a limbo, of not one thing or the other.
If he is not truly barefoot, he is an unshod horse with sore feet.
If as an owner, you cannot give the barefoot horse what he needs, for whatever reason, shoe him.
The barefoot route needs a management system, at a far higher level and not everyone can do it, far better to shoe in these circumstances.
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So what would your management routine be? As I've already outlined what his routine is regarding feeding and turnout. He is walked over different surfaces as we do hack a lot.
 
There is the basic no sugar diet etc, I try to hack at least 5 miles per day road and track.
But things change with seasons, weather, and I react to that. Boots, sometimes, soaking hay for a while, my routine changes as I see fit.
The mistake is not being flexible.
 
I am having a bad time too.
Even my boy who has been BF for nine months is feeling the worse surfaces a bit more .
I am having big issues with one who has gone very sore due to too much wear on his frogs I was looking for thrush ( no sign of that ) but vet who I got in because I feared LGL said not LGL but too much wear trimmer came out and said its the frogs not the soles and he has worn too much frog his back feet are worse I am resting him over the weekend in the school , stable , a little turnout at night and now have back boots , I am going to try using these next week ,trimmer said he is seeing horses BF for years struggling at the moment and he feels if the weather changes things will improve .
I feel bad about missing this this horse had typical lots of shoeing hunter feet and his frogs have got less weedy I had noticed the very polished look as his frogs but did not realise this was going to cause this issue .
I will have to go to shoes if I can't sort this as he's not getting the work he needs it's a shame but it's coming round to the time of year where he has to be got ready for his proper job .
 
all my horses have always been kept on grass-and all of them have been kept barefoot, except my daughters cobx who has fronts when we got her she had been turned away for about 10 months and could hardly walk-my fields have never had fertlizer on them-where she came from the grazing is fertilized every year-any of you feel there may be a link here?
also for everyones info
the 11.3hh welsh pony had no hard feed, no supplements, work varied but always very restricted grazing
16.2hh welsh d cross tb, a fair bit of conditioning feed and grass for first 5months due to being in very poor condition
15.1hh welsh cros anglo arab, kept at grass no hard feed loads of hacking on roads
14.3hh welsh no hard feed kept at grass no fully backed yet

all the above no shoes the whole time i had/have currently had them

14.3hh irish sports horse cross cob, handful conditioning cubes handful endurance mix, plus supplements restricted grazing soaked hay, lots and lots of hacking
this is the only one that has had shoes
 
OP I really think there are too many barefoot tunneled vision members on here who say shoeing horses is not correct etc. Well the cavalry horses are shod so are the Queens.

Barefoot is NOT always the way to go, some of us are not in favour of going barefoot, for a number of reasons and situations some of us have witnessed. That does not mean they are wrong. Yes some horses benefit from barefoot - equally some benefit from shoes. This does NOT mean their diet is wrong neither does it mean their lifestyle is wrong.

Horses at the end of the day were designed to run across prairies open space etc. Not to be ridden on tarmac etc. I wonder how many race horses or eventer's would do if they were going on soft ground without the aid of shoes and studs etc or horses going on the roads like carriage horses would fair if they were barefoot.:rolleyes:

That is the trouble I see on here , some members are open minded realizing there are situations that arise when you need to go barefoot and when you need shoes. But a selected few who any time a member says they have trouble with their horses feet they say barefoot because they are so apposed to shoes.

Well from the select few barefooters I have seen over the years, what they have done here for liveries etc and my horses they have either made the feet worst or not corrected it properly or the horses feet did not improve going barefoot . (some are going to blame feed or management her) :rolleyes: So we had to go shoes to correct the horse's problem or the horse is happier with shoes than without. This had NOTHING to do with the diet. I personally now have NO Faith in barefooters.

I have two equines that are fully barefoot its because one doesn't work or go out of the yard the other is ok at the moment due to lack of work. The difference is I have 50/50 vision which is if they need shoes (and some do) they have them if not they go without. Some here accuse us of improper hoof care if we opt for shoes.

I normally find its the HORSE that tells me they they go better with fronts/ set than any WBP on here, and would never use a barefooter again.IMO so OP you know your horse better than anyone on here you do what is best for your horses situation. :)

I really don't know why barefooters preach and preach to us to go barefoot , where as farriers do not preach to us to have shoes. Actually one of my farriers said both two of mine would do better barefoot the other fronts only.
 
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but this horse has been barefoot for years.. so it isn't a question of 'going barefoot'

with regards to horses going on roads there are several barefoot police forces so it is possible.

I have never seen anyone on here say that there is never a reason to put shoes on, CP has always said that sometimes you cannot provide what the horse needs for it to be out of shoes (I remember having a 'discussion' with her on this back in our early days of being on the forum.. and accusing her of suggesting we were bad owners.. which she wasn't!)

Maybe you haven't seen the right barefooters? removing shoes has certainly not made my boy worse or not corrected the problem.. his feet look better and after 4 months lame in shoes he is 14 weeks sound without. There is a question mark as to if he had been bf before he might not have the problems he does now.

I don't find that barefooters preach and preach to go barefoot, they would just like to give you their opinions/what they would do/let you know it actually exists. Because without this forum I, among others who now have sound horses because of it, wouldn't have known much about it.
 
Broke_But_Happy said:
Precisely my thought which is why I linked his footiness to the weather :)
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...but all of my horse have great feet in the wet winter and don't need boots and they are 24/7 in mud??? however, come the spring and the grass things change rapidly :(

So how can it be the weather for them?
 
Nope! Kal is unshod behind - has been for a year now - and his hinds have never looked better and aren't remotely footy or sore. His hind hooves were shocking before we removed the shoes - crumbly, full of holes, couldn't hold a shoe for love nor money . . . they have completely grown out now and are so healthy. If we can't get him sound in front with the eggbars, I am really noodling through whether it's time to take his fronts off too.

P
 
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