Any success with...

[letrec_fan]

..spray collars?

We own a 3 year old ColliexLab female and she is starting to get better when let off the lead however she still seems to have an innate want to chase. You name it she'll chase it. Birds/animals etc I can cope with but angry cyclists/children/ducks etc I cannot! I have a 'Pet Corrector' but this only works for short range (I attempted getting on the bike myself and spraying her with said corrector but she figured it was me so this didn't really click with her - she just got fairly confused - and as of yet I have no willing volunteers to do it for me) We did try a spray collar once but every time she ran it slipped round her neck (the all one piece with no seperate spray box) and simply sprayed to the side of her head. If I try another I would get a Masterplus or similar. Ducks she will chase for hours from one end of the pond to the other (we keep her on if we know there is a lake or if there is likely to be ducklings etc) and with kids she just loves to join in and play but that is often when she is at the opposing end of the field and she will run like a bullet - she doesn't do anything but it worries me that a) they get scared and b) she hasn't but may well knock them over if she gets excited. Calling/shouting etc does nothing. I just need something to interrupt the running before she gets to the object. Joggers she is fine with now. It only seems to be fast things/running etc that gets her going.

So, any success with spray collars or any ideas to stop her doing this? Nothing seems to work and it is extremely annoying (and embarrasing!) that we cannot just let her off at the park instead we have to drive to the common all the time or similar at silly o clock so we know no one will be there. She starts to get silly if she doesn't get a proper run off the lead at least occasionally.

Thanks.

 

[CAYLA]

I have trained alot of dogs with recall issues, and high prey drive (the hardest being my own pointer) I have found though that people are reluctant to keep the dog on a long line for the length of time they need to, in my pointer case he was kept on for 6 months, his exercise was maintained by OH on a bike for the rest of the time, he was not interested in treats or toys, so a firm check and calling him back to heal when he was 1 metre, 2 metres and praise actually worked a treat because he had to focus on us and not jsut his prey/scent, we no doubt got on his nerves but it worked and now he can be off lead anyhwere, we simply recall him frequently even if he is jsut walking along doing bot all.

The next tricky customer was a doberman, with her we long lined her for a period of again 6 months, we used high reward treats (chicken/sausage) a whistle, and a ball, we also made her exercise up on a bike as did her wonders (who where itching to let her off) but never did, because I said I would not work with her any further if they did)
We literally reinforced her recall using the whislte treats and the ball, we took all other opportuntiy away from her instead of allowing the behaviour to carry on to become more out of control, interestingly enough she now goes no further than a long line would and is rarely on a lead.
I do believe huge mistakes are made by being to inpatient with the ground work with the long line, I have had to work with alot of greyhounds/lurchers in order to rehome them aswell as dog aggressive fixators and chasers,all different methods, either firmness/positive treats for recall association, but it works.

I have however also seen the collar used with good result(not used it me sellf) im to stingy to buy one and to lazy to replace canisters and would forget to take it out you obs have to use it correctly at the exact times.

My own akita also runs free with the pack (she spent the first few years with me on a lead) I was that determined to get the ground work in) and to let an akita off is an achievment in it's self I do keep my beady eye on her always though

 

[blackcob]

I just need something to interrupt the running before she gets to the object.

50ft training line

Attach to dog, let dog run around. The second right before the 'gaze' sets in, well before she bolts, shout "LEAVE" in your most authoritative don't-you-dare voice and tug sharply on the line. Hopefully at this point she'll snap out of it and look back at you, wondering what on earth you are shouting about, at which point you give your happiest "COME!OHGOODGIRRRRRRLL!", high-value treats and fuss.

Have just seen that's Cayla's replied with basically the same thing, lol - I can vouch for the fact that it's a long process, I've had mine on a line for over six months now and in all honesty can see her being on a line for another 12, repeating the above process endlessly. You have a distinct advantage with that mix of breeds though.

Various people have suggested spray or electric collars to me (including one trainer who I called to get a price list for sessions - hadn't even seen the dog but as soon as I described her he was raving about e-collars being the only solution) and I'm still really not convinced that they won't ruin an otherwise non-aggressive and sensitive dog.

 

[galaxy]

I have an anti bark spray collar for Harley which has worked a treat. He had started running up to people barking if they appeared around corners and at the children in the street. Had it 3 weeks now and he hasn't barked on a walk for well over a week. Very rarely on the street and when he does it's one bark, it sprays and he stops.

I'm not sure really how well it would work for recall issues. I'd follow the other advise with a long line. Have you got a good local dog trainer?

 

[letrec_fan]

Thank you very much for all replies. I already use a long line which is good for letting her have slightly more freedom than the short lead and to practice the recall, which is what we really need because as well as chasing it is just running off wherever she likes on exciting walks like on the common. I did find she improved in not chasing bikes so much when she was put on a lead for a long length of time and just made to sit on a walk every time one came past. (She is fine on a common - couldn't give two hoots but out in the park which she knows well enough to get bored she finds it fun to chase I guess) We got her when she was 11 months, she is now three - so that is about 2 years on off lead training..?! I find she goes through phases - sometimes she will not do it at all and others she is terrible. She is also highly unpredictable!

Having said all of this we just came back from a brilliant walk on Whitmore Common. We do not know area very well so we were careful to start with - she was just on a longline with her harness on. I think she had calmed down a little by the time we let her off. We passed a lake (they are all sludgy at the moment with no rain) and once we got onto the main bit of common away from road we subtly (well we thought so anyway!) let her off. She stayed with us pretty much all the way and we had no idea where we were going. She barely strayed into the hedges at all and came back almost every time we called. This was for a good 2 hours so very pleased with her. She met two kids on the way down and they stroked her and she liked that. The benefit of the harness is you can grab it (if she is within grabbing distance!) easier than the collar. We saw two screaming children so we just quietly put the lead on, walked her past and she was fine.

Thank you for all your helpful and positive replies - it makes me feel better that I am not the only one with an unruly dog (I look at all the dogs in the park and think, why can't I have a dog thats not a raving lunatic almost every time its let off the lead!)!!! I think we will probably just carry on with wearing her out on the long line for 15 mins or so and then letting her off if we think it is safe and hope for the best, on the common at least! In the park I think I may try and invest in a collar or perhaps use the longline in the park as well. The collars are so expensive though, like you say Cayla! The problem is on the longline she doesn't go to chase - it is only when she knows she is free! Cayla- the bike riding is a good idea for exercise though I sometimes worry she would pull me over on the bike or that I would not have very good control and the whole 'forced' exercise thing..? But you managed it with an Akita/Dobie etc!

Thank you for all your replies, as above, I am hoping she may suddenly be hit by the maturity bug (or so everyone keeps telling me - she's only three!) We can only hope!

 

[soloabe]

I think you need to be more consistent with the long line and have it on a collar so you can give her a pop if she doesn't come.

Mine are NEVER off the long line on a walk until they come back 99.9999% getting away with it once and not coming back is a huge victory for them.

 

[letrec_fan]

I think you need to be more consistent with the long line and have it on a collar so you can give her a pop if she doesn't come.

Mine are NEVER off the long line on a walk until they come back 99.9999% getting away with it once and not coming back is a huge victory for them.

Trust me, we have been consistent. We don't want it on a collar on the common because she pulls constantly - with the harness it doesn't affect her throat so much and we have far greater control. As I have previously mentioned, she doesn't chase on the long line. I'm sure your dogs are very well trained. I feel she needs a good blast of lead if at all possible otherwise she starts to go a little stir crazy. If we feel it is safe, we may well let her off.

 

[CAYLA]

I think you need to be more consistent with the long line and have it on a collar so you can give her a pop if she doesn't come.

Mine are NEVER off the long line on a walk until they come back 99.9999% getting away with it once and not coming back is a huge victory for them.

Absoloutely this ^^^^^
I would not be letting her off for a long time, as you are going to get hit and miss days and she knows be it 10 mins, 1 hour, 1 week, she is going to be off soon
She needs to actually think "when im I going to be allowed to rampage again" unbeknown to her the answer should be "not to a long time love"
For the bike you need to work on her heel work firstly so u have better control on the bike, and as KT suggests I would be swapping harness for a collar to check her for not coming when asked as a "snap out of it" u will come when asked, and snap her out of any fixating she shows, believe it or not u can also form a better bond and get a little more respect from them working with the long line, it's a 2 way thing, otherwise it's one way, "her way" bogging off and not giving u a second thought.

 

[CAYLA]

Trust me, we have been consistent. We don't want it on a collar on the common because she pulls constantly - with the harness it doesn't affect her throat so much and we have far greater control. As I have previously mentioned, she doesn't chase on the long line. I'm sure your dogs are very well trained. I feel she needs a good blast of lead if at all possible otherwise she starts to go a little stir crazy. If we feel it is safe, we may well let her off.

I would also maybe change to a halti or half check and work on her heel work (with a training lead) and when u hit the open spaces switch to longline, how old is she?
I am anti harness they give more strength to pull, if she is making choaking sounds via her neck, it's because she is pulling and should not be, the choaking is not effecting her, otherwsie she would stop, it's jsut not nice to hear, the longline is not really a chase deterrant more of a recall reinforcer, i.e be it by firmness or positive association or indeed negative association, she learn a repetitive recall routine, they no doubt, know they are indeed on the end of one, but all option of ignoring a recall have been diminished.

 

[letrec_fan]

I would also maybe change to a halti or half check and work on her heel work (with a training lead) and when u hit the open spaces switch to longline, how old is she?
I am anti harness they give more strength to pull, if she is making choaking sounds via her neck, it's because she is pulling and should not be, the choaking is not effecting her, otherwsie she would stop, it's jsut not nice to hear, the longline is not really a chase deterrant more of a recall reinforcer, i.e be it by firmness or positive association or indeed negative association, she learn a repetitive recall routine, they no doubt, know they are indeed on the end of one, but all option of ignoring a recall have been diminished.

She has a brilliant heel out on the park on lead. And she knows the heel command off lead too, as we do agility so can do short periods of off lead heel. It is just when she goes somewhere exciting - which I know we should work on.

I haven't heard brilliant things about haltis and I don't really want to start making her aggressive with a check collar. I don't want to damage her throat either. She is 3 years old. I find the harness really useful - infact, she pulls less but I guess all dogs are different. I'm not sure she really cares whether it affects her throat or not - she has a one track mind (like most dogs) and just wants to get where she is going. I agree the long line means she cannot ignore the recall but I often find she is brilliant on the lead, just off she is a bit of a nightmare. Maybe you are right with sticking with it and not letting her off at all for a good solid 6 months or so - I found this worked for a bit when all my trust had completely failed in her I chose to just keep her on a lead the whole time. However, it worked for a bit once I let her off, but then she started taking liberties again and ignoring recall..? But again I do like to let her have a blast - there is nothing like a good run around to really clap her out - I find if I just take her for walks on the lead she just wants more and more and more whereas one good shot of off lead and she is happy for atleast a few hours and then a short lead walk in the evening.

 

[blackcob]

Thirding on the consistency aspect - I was lulled into a false sense of security recently and was walking mine with the long line trailing loose on the floor more often than not, letting her go ahead as she was coming back every time. After a couple of weeks of impeccable behaviour she suddenly took off into a field of tall corn and I lost her for bloody ages, I was damn lucky we were well away from the road. By god was I sweating for those ten minutes!

By using the line every single time you're removing that option - and let's face it, hooning around and ignoring you is the most fun thing a dog can do, there's not a damn thing we can offer most dogs that's more interesting than that - best not to let them have the option at all, they stick within 50ft and come back when called (or are dragged back, if necessary... whatever happens, they end up at your feet when you call. ).

I must admit that I'm coming from the viewpoint of a totally un-driven, un-focusable dog, most have a certain something that's worth coming back for. Is she driven by anything in particular? I've not known a lab that can't be bribed with food and collies are often motivated by tennis balls, frisbees etc.

 

[soloabe]

She has a brilliant heel out on the park on lead. And she knows the heel command off lead too, as we do agility so can do short periods of off lead heel. It is just when she goes somewhere exciting - which I know we should work on.

I haven't heard brilliant things about haltis and I don't really want to start making her aggressive with a check collar. I don't want to damage her throat either. She is 3 years old. I find the harness really useful - infact, she pulls less but I guess all dogs are different. I'm not sure she really cares whether it affects her throat or not - she has a one track mind (like most dogs) and just wants to get where she is going. I agree the long line means she cannot ignore the recall but I often find she is brilliant on the lead, just off she is a bit of a nightmare. Maybe you are right with sticking with it and not letting her off at all for a good solid 6 months or so - I found this worked for a bit when all my trust had completely failed in her I chose to just keep her on a lead the whole time. However, it worked for a bit once I let her off, but then she started taking liberties again and ignoring recall..? But again I do like to let her have a blast - there is nothing like a good run around to really clap her out - I find if I just take her for walks on the lead she just wants more and more and more whereas one good shot of off lead and she is happy for atleast a few hours and then a short lead walk in the evening.

But there are lots of other things that can be done to tire her out. How about biking her, running her? ect.

If you don't become consistent with it you will just go round and round in circles and never get anywhere. My dog was on the long line for year before he even got let off for a few minutes.

And as for making her agressive with a check chain i have no idea where you have heard such rubbish.

Spray collars are dangerous in my opinion and can very much work against you. She doesn't come back = you spray = she freaks and bolts.

 

[letrec_fan]

But there are lots of other things that can be done to tire her out. How about biking her, running her? ect.

If you don't become consistent with it you will just go round and round in circles and never get anywhere. My dog was on the long line for year before he even got let off for a few minutes.

And as for making her agressive with a check chain i have no idea where you have heard such rubbish.

Spray collars are dangerous in my opinion and can very much work against you. She doesn't come back = you spray = she freaks and bolts.

Yeah, I may have to try tireing her out another way. I guess I could run on the common with her or bike but I can't fit my bike in the car and I am also still not sure I would want to risk it on a bike. Tireing her out like this is fine when I am on holidays but during term time she gets one 40 min walk in the morning around the park and another of a similar time during the day. Also, if she saw a squirrel/small creature she would run, with a bike or not. I will try the consistent long line approach.

Check chains can spark aggressive behaviour. The dog pulls towards what it wants = pain. If that object is a child/another dog etc the dog begins to associate the object with the pain. I am sure this is certainly not true in all cases but it can happen.

True with the spray collars however I tried my friends and she didn't bolt. She just looked really confused - which is the effect I am aiming for. One moment of confusion and her attention returns to me, cue exciting voice and treat.

 

[letrec_fan]

Thirding on the consistency aspect - I was lulled into a false sense of security recently and was walking mine with the long line trailing loose on the floor more often than not, letting her go ahead as she was coming back every time. After a couple of weeks of impeccable behaviour she suddenly took off into a field of tall corn and I lost her for bloody ages, I was damn lucky we were well away from the road. By god was I sweating for those ten minutes!

By using the line every single time you're removing that option - and let's face it, hooning around and ignoring you is the most fun thing a dog can do, there's not a damn thing we can offer most dogs that's more interesting than that - best not to let them have the option at all, they stick within 50ft and come back when called (or are dragged back, if necessary... whatever happens, they end up at your feet when you call. ).

I must admit that I'm coming from the viewpoint of a totally un-driven, un-focusable dog, most have a certain something that's worth coming back for. Is she driven by anything in particular? I've not known a lab that can't be bribed with food and collies are often motivated by tennis balls, frisbees etc.

Hmm..tell me about it. However I know she will pretty much always come back - I think it deffo. more a case of us losing her rather than her losing us! The one time she got truly lost we found her waiting in the car park by our car.

The longline is fine when your dog doesn't pull but it is often quite a relief (when she doesn't work you up into a sweat by running off!) to let her off because your shoulder/arm is about to drop off! Also, with big family walks, 50ft of long line often gets tangled up with everyone else! I am not sure how long my lunge line is.

She has the foody part of the lab brain and the intelligent part of the collie. What a bad combo! I often say she is too intelligent for her own good - our other dog is the perfect mixture of dumb - well dumb enough to stay with you - she has never really explored the realms of running off into the sunset! She is defo. motivated by food (as I sure many cakes/pies/bread rolls can testify to!) and she is an absolute nutter with a tennis ball. She often won't come back with that though either but a sqeaky ball will work for a few tries - until she figures you just ain't gonna give it to her!

 

[blackcob]

until she figures you just ain't gonna give it to her!

Give it to her, then! You need to pre-empt the zoning out, keeping an eye out for her usual triggers and then distract her well before the bolting would usually happen with whatever she will focus on. Call her away from the trigger and immediately throw a tennis ball - if she won't bring it back, take a pocketful of them and just lob them about everywhere, run around with her, squeal like a mad thing, engage her in a chasing game for the ball, swap it for a bit of sausage or roast chicken (which should also be in your pocket at all times). Keep tennis balls for walks only so they're super-special, Kong do a range of squeaky ones, or something like:

So you can swing it around, chuck it, tug with it, drag it on the floor...

Oh, to have a dog that will chase a ball! Care to swap?

 

[soloabe]

Ok i'm done here.

 

[CAYLA]

Yeah, I may have to try tireing her out another way. I guess I could run on the common with her or bike but I can't fit my bike in the car and I am also still not sure I would want to risk it on a bike. Tireing her out like this is fine when I am on holidays but during term time she gets one 40 min walk in the morning around the park and another of a similar time during the day. Also, if she saw a squirrel/small creature she would run, with a bike or not. I will try the consistent long line approach.

Check chains can spark aggressive behaviour. The dog pulls towards what it wants = pain. If that object is a child/another dog etc the dog begins to associate the object with the pain. I am sure this is certainly not true in all cases but it can happen.

True with the spray collars however I tried my friends and she didn't bolt. She just looked really confused - which is the effect I am aiming for. One moment of confusion and her attention returns to me, cue exciting voice and treat.

Im not sure who told you that about a choke/check chain? but it does not make dogs aggressive I have trained hundreds of dogs with this aid and they where initially aggressive (had origionally been on a harness) in most cases, it also causes no pain for a dog to pull against a chain (which should of course not happen) thats called bad handling

Anyway each to their own, go with what works for you.

 

[letrec_fan]

Ok i'm done here.

Thank you very much for your replies - they have been really helpful.

 

[letrec_fan]

Im not sure who told you that about a choke/check chain? but it does not make dogs aggressive I have trained hundreds of dogs with this aid and they where initially aggressive (had origionally been on a harness) in most cases, it also causes no pain for a dog to pull against a chain (which should of course not happen) thats called bad handling

Anyway each to their own, go with what works for you.

Maybe it is worth a go then.

 

[Brownmare]

This is easier to say than do I know but if she pulls then don't let her! Start on the short lead and when she pulls check and IMMEDIATELY release that way she can never pull and, believe me, if you are utterly consistent and clear with your timing she will pick it up in a couple of sessions. The trick I find is to make it more release than check i.e. never hang on the lead yourself!

With the toy thing if she likes a squeaky toy then take 2 out. That way you can let her have one as a reward after a few recalls and still entice her back with the other. This also improves the Leave / Drop command too!

I did use an electric collar once for a very persistent and intelligent sheep chasing lurcher but only after i had a perfect recall established on a long line then loose in a sheep free environment before moving on to a sheep field. Even then I only used it after he wore it for 2 weeks switched off so he didn't associate the correction with the collar or me. I only had to use it once and he never went near a sheep again but I'm not sure it would work for child / dog chasing as you don't want him to be scared of them, just uninterested.

 

[letrec_fan]

This is easier to say than do I know but if she pulls then don't let her! Start on the short lead and when she pulls check and IMMEDIATELY release that way she can never pull and, believe me, if you are utterly consistent and clear with your timing she will pick it up in a couple of sessions. The trick I find is to make it more release than check i.e. never hang on the lead yourself!

With the toy thing if she likes a squeaky toy then take 2 out. That way you can let her have one as a reward after a few recalls and still entice her back with the other. This also improves the Leave / Drop command too!

I did use an electric collar once for a very persistent and intelligent sheep chasing lurcher but only after i had a perfect recall established on a long line then loose in a sheep free environment before moving on to a sheep field. Even then I only used it after he wore it for 2 weeks switched off so he didn't associate the correction with the collar or me. I only had to use it once and he never went near a sheep again but I'm not sure it would work for child / dog chasing as you don't want him to be scared of them, just uninterested.

Thank you for your post brownmare. I always check, release etc when on the short lead so perhaps I should try this on the longline when out in open areas too. I figured if I never hung onto the lead she couldn't pull so I tried giving my hand forwards alot but I just end up running after her if I don't hang on because she still pulls! I have dug my clicker out again though and I did take her on the longline twice today in the park (where she doesn't pull) and practiced some recall with a squeaky ball. Call, click, throw ball, she comes back and drops ball. First time was quite annoying because she just hung by my side the whole time and the line got tangled everywhere. Second time she got the hang of it a little more and walked ahead and then I recalled her back etc. However, I used the ball a few times and then she just got bored - it is apparently only interesting if she is free and can run away from me when I want to go home! If I really chucked it she enjoyed running after it but I am a bit clumsy with the line and couldn't let it out fast enough for her to run! I will need to practice!

Yeah, not sure an electric would be best, I was thinking a spray as I don't want her to associate kids with pain. Wearing it switched off though is a good idea, so, like you say they don't associate it so much.

Thanks!