Any thoughts anyone please?

Tiffany

Tiffany

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Sorry this post will be long and rambling

I had a problem a few months ago which I personally think was caused by the farrier I used to have. She always went lame the day she was shod and then always felt slightly, 1/10th unlevel for days afterwards/ She'd never had lameness issues previoulsy apart from tweeking her suspensory over two years ago. Anyway, took her to vet who did lameness assessment including flexion tests, lunging on hardish ground on small circle and she was fine. I agreed she looked OK that day but she just didn't feel right. Arranged thermal image which showed heat in heel of leg she was unlevel on (front right) and right knee. Went back to vet had scan and e rays of both front feet. Right foot slightly different to left but nothing to cause alarnm Farrier worked with vet and they decided on straightbar shoes and she's been sound although I've still not thought she moved the way she used to.

I'll get to the point. She's fine in the morning despite being stood in stable all night, she's fine when ridden although really stiffens up afterwards. 20 minutes after being ridden today I went to bring her out of stable for farrier and she was really stiff. It does ease off if walked round for a few minutes. I would have thought exercise would loosen her up but it seems to be the opposite. Any thoughts anyone. Farrier has always thought problem could be in her knee.

Will ring vet again - I'm sure he thinks I'm a neurotic owner because he says very few horses are 100% sound.

I'm thinking of requesting an MRI scan?

Large glass of wine and doritos for all who got this far.

Thanks
 
Stiffening up after exercise sounds to me like a metabolic and muscle issue. If she is the horse in your avatar she looks pretty well covered and I would be suspicious that you have a horse with EPSM or EMS, both of which can cause muscle stiffness after exercise. I suspect this issue may be completely unrelated to your farrier who was laming your horse every time he shod her - he may either be cack-handed or she may have been stressing an iffy joint (the warm knee) too much when being shod. Is it only this farrier who makes her lame?

For the EMS/EPSM I would get her weight right down to a condition score 2 and see if that improves things. I would also get her on a very low sugar/high fibre diet which would include severely restricting her grass intake over the spring and summer.

I hope that helps.

EMS Equine Metabolic Syndrome
EPSM Equine Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy
 
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I agree with cp, it does sound more like a metobolic problem - azutoria, tying-up and EMSM are all related to a missing enzyme which means that the horse cannot effeiciantly break-down sugars (cereals and the carbohysdrates in spring/autumn grass, for example) effectively. In exercise the muscles can't expel the toxin in the bloodstream which is creatd by these sugars, leading to stiffness and cramps.
 
cptrayes said:
Stiffening up after exercise sounds to me like a metabolic and muscle issue. If she is the horse in your avatar she looks pretty well covered and I would be suspicious that you have a horse with EPSM or EMS, both of which can cause muscle stiffness after exercise. I suspect this issue may be completely unrelated to your farrier who was laming your horse every time he shod her - he may either be cack-handed or she may have been stressing an iffy joint (the warm knee) too much when being shod. Is it only this farrier who makes her lame?

For the EMS/EPSM I would get her weight right down to a condition score 2 and see if that improves things. I would also get her on a very low sugar/high fibre diet which would include severely restricting her grass intake over the spring and summer.

I hope that helps.

EMS Equine Metabolic Syndrome
EPSM Equine Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy
Click to expand...

Thanks CP - Yes she is the horse in my avatar and I agree she was overweight then. She's slimmer now although despite only being on a handful of happy hoof twice a day with carrots, 4 hours grazing in a small paddock and two haylage nets a day she doesn't seem to be losing anymore weight. We're moving to another yard next weekend where she could be out more and I was thinking it would help the stiffness. After what you have said maybe not?

He was the only farrier that made her lame, she's fine with my new farrier.

Would you still get vet back?
 
classicalfan said:
I agree with cp, it does sound more like a metobolic problem - azutoria, tying-up and EMSM are all related to a missing enzyme which means that the horse cannot effeiciantly break-down sugars (cereals and the carbohysdrates in spring/autumn grass, for example) effectively. In exercise the muscles can't expel the toxin in the bloodstream which is creatd by these sugars, leading to stiffness and cramps.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply. Don't know what to do now, I've arranged to move to a yard nearer home next week where she could get more turnout thinking that might help her?! I could put a muzzle on her so she's moving but having reduced grass intake. The other reason for moving was so she could be exercised more with hacking out rather than being in school all time. Presume more exercise wouldn't help and could make her more uncomfortable?
 
You should cut the carrots right out straight away. Many of these horses are hypersensitive to carrot sugars. In your new yard, is it possible to have her out at night only? The sugars in the grass are much worse from 11am to 8pm, when the sun gets on it. She needs as much exercise as you can give her without making her uncomfortable, which sounds like it may be a balancing act for a while, but the higher you get her metabolic rate the better she'll deal with her food.

If she was mine, I would put her on an EPMS diet and see what happened. It is fairly low risk, though you might want to check with a vet first. The key to the diet is low/no carbs (sugar/cereals) and high fat (500 yes 5 hundred ml, half a litre!!) of oil a day with 12,000 to 30,000 iu of vitamin E. The cheapest way I found to get vitamin E is to buy capsules off simplySupplements.com and cut them open. The oil is easiest fed in speedibeet, which is not molassed.

Check the bag label of anything you put in her mouth. It is astonishing the amount of molasses/sugar in food marked prominently as "laminitis safe"!

This diet did well for a horse I took on who I suspected EPMS in, and as a side effect it also cured a serious sweet itch problem - very surprising and a huge bonus!

I know there are other EPMS horse owners who read this forum and I hope they can help too. I have a friend who may spot this and post - she has a serious EPMS case and is having great success with activated charcoal (google "Happy Tummy").
 
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Agree again with cp. We ahve a cople here with severe MSM (even gentle exercise brings on an attack). Your girl, lukcily, isn't in that category. If she's a good doer she should be fine on grass, even at this time of year, as long as it is very short - it will take her all day to eat a small quantity (treat almost as a laminitic). We avoid commercial feed and protein is provided by lucern pellets and we add fat (good quality oil) if they will eat it (some won't).
 
It might be worth removing the shoes from the equation too i.e. take her barefoot. I've been having a discussion on another forum recently about effects of trimming, and how with some horses, taking even a gnat's whisker off their hooves makes them less confident in their movement. I'm wondering more and more if it's not the feet that are affected, but joints further up the leg that are unbalanced by the trimming. This effect would obviously be intensified with a shoe/trim cycle as there is no wear in between trims, so they have to be more aggressive. I've been experimenting with minimal trimming, and the one of my three who is less good on his bare feet seems to be benefiting from it - he is growing the foot he needs rather than the one I think he should have.
 
Sole equestrian - she's only had front shoes on for years and I do think she needs heel support.

Classicalfan - adding fat to diet of good doer seems a contradiction in some ways to someone like me who tries so hard to keep her at a reasonable weight.

CPtrayes - she hates bring on her own and if she was out at night she would be. If it is EPMS what brings it on?

I really appreciate all the replies - thanks!
 
I should have written EPMS of course not EPSM. It is not "brought on", it is a genetic predisposition in heavy horses, a lot of Spanish horses and some other breeds. If your horse has it, it has it, and it cannot be "cured" as such because a piece of DNA is wrongly configured. But it can, in many case, be easily managed with the EPMS diet. This diet is fine for most horses, so testing it is of little risk. Is there no possibility of leaving another horse out at night with her? You could buy a shetland who would cost zilch to feed, be very cute, share her stable and keep her company for £50 at an auction??? I have one, he's a daily delight!!
 
cptrayes - she wasn't ridden today and still appeared stiff and struggled turning on a circle. Going to ring vet first and ask him to come out tomorrow.
She looks so well but is obviously in discomfort. I also noticed a pulse today in both front legs so thinking could be laminitis which I have read is brought on by EMS.

Thanks very much for taking the trouble to reply I'll post an update tomorrow when vet's been.

Reference companion pony, it's unlikely because it's not my yard and there are no stables free and YO won't have just grazing liveries.
 
Vet came yesterday and she was freer moving and didn't struggle on 15m circle. Said she looked well, fit and about right weight. He checked for pulses, did pincher tests and took temperature and all OK.

He didn't see her really stiff so from what he's seem he thinks problem is with her feet. I'm taking her to Somerford on Friday for feet x rays.

CPTrayes - another thing I've noticed, her feet aren't really growing at usual rate. She went 9 weeks this time for shoeing and even then nothing to trim on back (barefoot on back)
 
Took her to Somerford yesterday, she had full lameness assessment and was fine in school but 1/10th lame on hard ground and a little worse on small circle. Vet said it's biolateral lameness but worse on front right. Front right foot nerve blocked and she was much improved. Then x rays which showed no change from x rays taken last September.

Vet suggesting either:

- Injection into navicular bursa or
- MRI scan

I was told ther's a risk with injection so, going to ask vet if MRI with show everything and if so, that's what I'll go for.
 
Still think the lack of foot growth and stiffness which looked muscular to you points to metabolism, but you have a vet in full flow now, so you may as well go with him if you are insured. Check that your insurance covers MRI, it's hugely expensive and many will only pay for half, and some not at all.

If she is bilaterally lame and he blocked the worse foot, she should then have appeared markedly lame on the "better" one. What you describe, sounder with the worse foot nerve blocked, is not what I would call bilateral lameness. Either that, or the lameness was partially above the nerve block. But he's a vet, and from my own vets too, so who am I to disagree?
 
Because she improved when worse foot nerve blocked it sort of proved the vet's point that the problem is in her feet although, I did question the stiffness and the fact her feet aren't growing and they said stiffness is due to concussion when the pain has built up during exercise. There is no sign of navicular on x rays so I'm not sure why they want to nerve block navicular bursa?

Spoken to farrier and he thinks clean x rays with improvement to her movement when nerve blocked would suggest soft tissue damage in her feet.

It's not easy questioning a professional although she's more pottery, short striding than lame and it only really shows on a small circle and stiffness only evident after being ridden.

Will speak to my usual vet tomorrow when he's had chance to look at x rays and ask what he thinks.

I just want her to be pain free. She seems worse without her front shoes on so, hoping to get farrier back in next couple of days
 
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