Any tips for tight muscles? (horse)

[tobiano1984]

My special supercob, formerly Emotionally Damaged Cob, who lots of you will have seen/read about on here, has come up against a slight hurdle. Very short background as I've typed it SO many times before!
Bought him from hideous dealer 2 years ago, sold as unrideable and due to go to auction. Didn't like people getting on, didn't like new people, didn't like turning right. Strong suggestions of abuse in his past. Lots of tightness, twisted pelvis, locking stifle etc. Sorted through lots of osteopathy and love and remedial work. Has since won up to Novice dressage and won first ODE, also loves jumping now having been unable to get off the ground last year.

So all going well, I had the osteo out to check him a few weeks ago and she said nothing structurally wrong, just very tight muscles - as she knows his workload (not exactly high pressured) and how we do things, she thinks it's more mentally triggered tension rather than exercise induced. It got worse a couple of weeks ago after I clipped him - he's very good and quiet but it obviously frightened him (he's not the sort to react, just shuts down so sometimes it's hard to tell), and then that has shown through in his ridden work - bit tense when getting on, fine in walk and trot but bit tense in canter (but totally sound) and then more tense in trot after cantering.

At the moment he's on light work - just hacking out several times a week and maybe one session in the school doing stretchy stretchy. We are hoping to BE him in the Spring if all goes well.

So - long and low and stretchy ridden work aside, I'm wondering if there's anything supplement/topical application-wise that I can give him to relax these muscles. If he was a person (and I spoke to my human physio about him!) he'd need something like aromatherapy massage and meditation - but how do you translate that to a horse...! I'm currently training as a vet phys so finding it interesting trying to sort this boy out. Unfortunately I'm only in my first year of the MSc so not much help myself.
It's particularly his brachiocephalicus muscle under his neck that seems very tight, but when you palpate all over he's just generally tight - and usually when you do so he gets tighter!

Hope someone has some ideas to try! It's not like he's unsound or injured or anything, he's just the sort to get in a vicious cycle of tension and I want to try and get him out of it.

Thanks!

 

[FfionWinnie]

Exercise rug, mag ox and natural vitamin e.

And I would look up PSSM and see if you think that could fit his symptoms. It's likely to be pretty common in cobs and most are bumbling along fairly happily undiagnosed but could be a lot better with the right diet and management.

 

[tobiano1984]

Exercise rug, mag ox and natural vitamin e.

And I would look up PSSM and see if you think that could fit his symptoms. It's likely to be pretty common in cobs and most are bumbling along fairly happily undiagnosed but could be a lot better with the right diet and management.

Exercise rug is a good point - although need one for the front end too..! I used Mag ox on a stressy horse a few years ago, it's cheap so worth a try.

No he doesn't really fit the PSSM profile, plus I think he's on the right diet for this anyway as mine are all barefoot and on low sugar/starch (Agrobs feed, all forage based)

 

[paddi22]

i suffer from an ISH with tight muscles and we are still trying to get to the base of it. He has improved since i changed feed - specialist said he was allergic to some ingredients in the feed, especially alfafa and peas and it was causing issues with how his muscles dealt with proteins. I do massge and strecthes with him and am waiting to see if he improves further with the feed change

 

[ameeyal]

i have 1 that has tight muscles, i bought him a back on track back warmer, you can either sew it to an exicting rug, but i use it as a numnah, i dont know if it works, but some great reviews on their products.

 

[ycbm]

No he doesn't really fit the PSSM profile, plus I think he's on the right diet for this anyway as mine are all barefoot and on low sugar/starch (Agrobs feed, all forage based)

Errrrrrr... he does fit the pssm/epsm profile. He has heavy horse genes, he's a stressy animal, he's got tight muscles.

They need oil, vitamin e high dose, rda selenium, not just low sugar high fibre. Either that or alcar, vit e and selenium.

I recently read that sixty per cent of horses with Shire, Clydesdale, Percheron and other heavy horse blood have some level of polysaccharide storage myopathy when they randomly biopsy. I don't know how true that is but it was an academic looking reference from the US.

 

[tobiano1984]

Errrrrrr... he does fit the pssm/epsm profile. He has heavy horse genes, he's a stressy animal, he's got tight muscles.

They need oil, vitamin e high dose, rda selenium, not just low sugar high fibre. Either that or alcar, vit e and selenium.

I recently read that sixty per cent of horses with Shire, Clydesdale, Percheron and other heavy horse blood have some level of polysaccharide storage myopathy when they randomly biopsy. I don't know how true that is but it was an academic looking reference from the US.

What I meant is that the only sign of PSSM he shows is muscle tightness - he doesn't sweat much (prob least sweaty horse on the yard), he isn't stressy as such he's just tense, he doesn't have shortened strides or gait abnormalities or reluctance to work. I've seen it in QHs and he isn't anything like that. He's also quite a fine cob - not a heavy hairy one - so not a huge amount of heavy blood. It's certainly a consideration to look into but I really don't feel he presents enough clinical signs to be certain he has PSSM. He gets quite a bit of linseed in his diet which I believe is pretty high in oil and vitamin E.

 

[ycbm]

You need at least a mug full of pure oil a day, not the little bit in linseed oil. I gave mine nearly half a litre a day. And at least 2000iu of vitamin e, much more than he would get in linseed.

I take your point about symptoms, but the disease is a spectrum from mild to severe. My type 2 horse only has muscle stiffness, yet he is responding so well to alcar that it's difficult not to come to the conclusion that he has low grade type 2.

The diet won't hurt a healthy horse, and you haven't yet had your horse on the right amount of oil/alcar or vitamin e. Have you checked his selenium levels, they are also very sensitive to low selenium?

 

[tobiano1984]

You need at least a mug full of pure oil a day, not the little bit in linseed oil. I gave mine nearly half a litre a day.

I take your point about symptoms, but the disease is a spectrum from mild to severe. My type 2 horse only has muscle stiffness, yet he is responding so well to alcar that it's difficult not to come to the conclusion that he has low grade type 2.

The diet won't hurt a healthy horse, and you haven't yet had your horse on the right amount of oil/alcar. Have you checked his selenium levels, they are very sensitive to low selenium.

He currently gets 1-2 mugs of micronised linseed per day which is 40% oil according the breakdown and apparently 0.08mg/kg of selenium, plus the Agrobs feed has linseed in it too but not a huge amount. What sort of oil are you talking about?

And no, how would I go about testing selenium levels?

 

[FfionWinnie]

He does fit the profile. My supercob has it and on the semi right diet you probably wouldn't really know, kind of like yours. On the best diet she is performing amazingly.

Vit e oil helps muscles so does magnox that's why I suggested it.

You said he was worse since clipped, that's another sign of PSSM as they need kept warm.

I have a Rambo night rider which covers her neck as well.

Also micronised linseed makes mine symptomatic.

 

[ycbm]

He currently gets 1-2 mugs of micronised linseed per day which is 40% oil according the breakdown and apparently 0.08mg/kg of selenium, plus the Agrobs feed has linseed in it too but not a huge amount. What sort of oil are you talking about?

And no, how would I go about testing selenium levels?

Any oil. I used rapeseed from Tesco. I wouldn't recommend oil though, I'm getting a far better result much more easily with 15g a day of alcar.

I blood tested for selenium but you can test the hay and grazing instead.

 

[tobiano1984]

He does fit the profile. My supercob has it and on the semi right diet you probably wouldn't really know, kind of like yours. On the best diet she is performing amazingly.

Vit e oil helps muscles so does magnox that's why I suggested it.

You said he was worse since clipped, that's another sign of PSSM as they need kept warm.

I have a Rambo night rider which covers her neck as well.

Also micronised linseed makes mine symptomatic.

Lovely pony! Looks quite similar to mine. OK, sounds like I need to investigate. What's the diagnosis method of PSSM? I don't really want to get a vet out a) for expense and b) because he hates them! I've just ordered some MagOx - I had good results with a different type of horse so know it's useful. How much are you giving? And where do you get the oil from/how much to give? I'm more than happy to try adding stuff to his diet and see if it helps - I presume it's fairly swift to show a difference? He's in a full neck rug all day and night but I've ordered a fleece neck for another horse so can try that on him and see if it helps.

Now I think about it, it's definitely got worse since the weather changed - in the summer there wasn't an issue at all.

This is the chap in question -

 

[ycbm]

He does fit the profile. My supercob has it and on the semi right diet you probably wouldn't really know, kind of like yours. On the best diet she is performing amazingly.

Vit e oil helps muscles so does magnox that's why I suggested it.

You said he was worse since clipped, that's another sign of PSSM as they need kept warm.

I have a Rambo night rider which covers her neck as well.

Also micronised linseed makes mine symptomatic.

I didn't know about the clipping, and that's very interesting about the linseed. (I don't do Facebook, can't get on with it, blame my age)

 

[tobiano1984]

Any oil. I used rapeseed from Tesco. I wouldn't recommend oil though, I'm getting a far better result much more easily with 15g a day of alcar.

I blood tested for selenium but you can test the hay and grazing instead.

Do you use the human alcar or is there a horse specific one?

 

[ycbm]

Tobiano, lovely pone

My vet is happy to diagnose by reaction to the diet, because no further treatment is needed of they respond to the diet. I have a negative hair test on a QH cross, which my vet and I think is a false negative because the horse had so many symptoms, including false colic. My type 2 horse would need a biopsy, but again he is responding so well to the alcar that there's no point spending the money on it.

I buy alcar, acetyl l carnetine (a breakdown product of the amino acid they can't make for themselves) from ebay at 30 quid a kilo. I'll just fetch you the pointer if you wait a sec

 

[ycbm]

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=181787005366&alt=web

 

[tobiano1984]

Thanks ycbm - how quickly did you notice an improvement with the Alcar? Just wondering if I can get a smaller amount to try and then if it works I can buy in bulk!!

FfionWinnie - interesting what you say about micronised linseed making yours symptomatic - is this just anecdotal or is it something that is common? Just because when I look it up everywhere seems to say than it is safe for PSSM/Azoturia horses!

So - at worst to rule PSSM out and at best to make him better, is this the right sort of plan:

Stay on his Agrobs feed (all grass based) and linseed (or cut out the extra micronised linseed and replace with oil?)
Add a mug or two of oil to his feed - any oil, rapeseed etc or just use 15g of alcar
Add magOx - any recommendation on how much?
VitE - how best to give this?

Do you think it's best to give all of this at once or add bit by bit to see what has an effect?!

 

[ycbm]

Mag ox as calcined magnesite (15 pounds for 25 kilos) 25g a day.

Alcar or oil, not both

I use vitamin e powder from progressive earth on ebay.10ml scoop a day.


I saw improvement within a week in the elasticity in the muscles and complete resolution of any symptoms except immaturity caused by late development within six weeks. Currently nearly two weeks in with my type 2 boy and I can now punch part of his bottom and see the rest ripple, but it's not as loose as my other horse yet.

I have not had to restrict grazing or exercise every day as I have seen other people report. My horses are barefoot and normally rock crunching.

 

[tobiano1984]

Mag ox as calcined magnesite (15 pounds for 25 kilos) 25g a day.

Alcar or oil, not both

I use vitamin e powder from progressive earth on ebay.10ml scoop a day.


I saw improvement within a week in the elasticity in the muscles and complete resolution of any symptoms except immaturity caused by late development within six weeks. Currently nearly two weeks in with my type 2 boy and I can now punch part of his bottom and see the rest ripple, but it's not as loose as my other horse yet.

I have not had to restrict grazing or exercise every day as I have seen other people report. My horses are barefoot and normally rock crunching.

OK great. I've ordered mag ox from progressive earth so will look at their vit e powder too.

I've never noticed a correlation between grazing and Tex's symptoms - he's out on grass (quite a lot in Spring, not so much in Summer) 24/7 in spring/summer and during the day in winter, in at night with hay. He's barefoot with great feet. He gets exercised 3 or so times a week, he doesn't seem to change according to the level/amount - much the same hacking out for 1.5 hours as he is doing 20 mins of schooling in the arena..

 

[ycbm]

OK great. I've ordered mag ox from progressive earth so will look at their vit e powder too.

I've never noticed a correlation between grazing and Tex's symptoms - he's out on grass (quite a lot in Spring, not so much in Summer) 24/7 in spring/summer and during the day in winter, in at night with hay. He's barefoot with great feet. He gets exercised 3 or so times a week, he doesn't seem to change according to the level/amount - much the same hacking out for 1.5 hours as he is doing 20 mins of schooling in the arena..

Sounds like my type 2 until I cottoned on to the fact that if didn't ride him for four or five days, his bum went really hard.

Sounds like you have a plan

 

[RosieJM]

You could try Sue Palmer - she is a very good ACPAT physio and author, as well as a behavioural specialist/trainer, she has a DVD and a course teaching horse massage for owners, and she is currently writing a book and running courses called 'brain, pain, or training?' - I think she specialises in these cases where it is behavioural/emotional/physical all tied in, she is also very approachable so would be worth an email or call.

 

[FfionWinnie]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/202978353056065/

Link to FB group.

I find cool stance copra is the best thing for her, along with alfalfa pellets and various supplements for PSSM. However generic off the shelf supplements often contain hidden sugars so you need to watch out for that. Natural vit e oil from Equimins is the cheapest source of natural vit e in the UK that we can find. It must be natural, I feed 6000iu per day which is 6 mls. Mag ox from pro earth. Plain table salt from tesco.

There's a hair test for PSSM1. PSSM2 and other myopathies are diagnosed by muscle biopsy. I would personally do the hair test as a starting point. It's only £30.

If the hair test is negative but you cure his symptoms with diet, personally, I wouldn't do the biopsy. If you don't cure the symptoms then there's a chance it's another similar myopathy which needs a different diet.

Consistency is key. I exercise my mare every single day come what may. I walk for 10 mins before anything else.

My mare doesn't eat grass. She has adlib grass hay, 2.5kgs copra and 1.25kgs Alfalfa pellets plus the sups.

Cutting out the linseed improved her within 24 hours. My jumping instructor asked what I had done to her as it was like she had been serviced and new springs fitted. Increasing the copra further improved her.

Don't get me wrong, she was ok before that, with plenty of places unaff SJ and XC and a BS win at 90cms but subtle improvements with the diet make a massive difference to how she can perform.

Most of what you will learn about PSSM is anecdotal its that sort of disease.

However an almost normal life, especially in cobs, IS possible.

 

[SusieT]

Assume he has had spinal xrays at some point?

 

[tobiano1984]

Assume he has had spinal xrays at some point?

Er no, it's not something I do for fun unless I suspected a problem?!

 

[paddy555]

I also get my vitamin e oil from equimins. It does happen to be the cheapest but more importantly to me it works very well. I use it not only on a suspected PSSM horse but on 4 others who are unlikely to be PSSM. I use 8 - 10000iu per day per horse and it is the best thing I have ever come across for improving muscles. I saw results within days, just small things to start with like how much happier and more comfortable the pssm was and how much he stopped spooking and being high. Vit E works best if you go in at a high dose. I started some on only 4000iu but it took a long time to see results. When I upped it to 8000iu then the results were quick.

I use light magox and feed 50ml per day.

 

[Illusion100]

So sorry OP but may I barge in with a question regarding a friends horse and possible similar symptoms?

 

[SusieT]

Eh -tight horse who repeatedly had tight muscles, came with a history of disliking being ridden - any chiropracter worth their salt should have been working with a horse like this after vet investigation to identify the underlying problem.
Random supplements and possible diagnoses is unlikely to help - there is a reason why he gets tight muscles.
Having told us his history hard to see how you say there's nothing wrong now..

 

[SusieT]

And as a trainee vet physio you should know that

 

[FfionWinnie]

Eh -tight horse who repeatedly had tight muscles, came with a history of disliking being ridden - any chiropracter worth their salt should have been working with a horse like this after vet investigation to identify the underlying problem.
Random supplements and possible diagnoses is unlikely to help - there is a reason why he gets tight muscles.
Having told us his history hard to see how you say there's nothing wrong now..

Far more sensible to start with the cheap and likely diagnosis than to crash on with X-rays for a muscle disorder, which is highly likely to be the cause of the problems and will not be diagnosed with X-rays anyway.

 

[SusieT]

Far more sensible to see a vet about it who may or may not advise x-rays. No pracitioner should touch a horse without vet approval for this very reason i.e cowboy diagnosis by untrained people (e.g via the internet)