Any tips on dealing with aggressive youngster?

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Jackobean

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Hi all
I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice on dealing with my yearling. I acquired him about 4 months ago, from a sale & when I purchased him, he was in an awful state. Skin & bone, full of worms but had also been badly man-handled, was full of lumps, bumps & injuries and was a nervous wreck. He would not tolerate men anywhere near him at all. It has taken a lot of work to get him to trust me & to get him to behave like a 'normal' horse. He still absolutely hates men and will not tolerate a strange man near him. This caused great difficulties when he was cut, by a male vet and my farrier has not been able to get anywhere near him yet. He is very aggressive towards men and strikes out, he almost looks like he's trying to box!:eek:

Luckily he doesn't do this to me, I trust him, he will let me do most things with him and is very trusting of me. However I am having the odd problem with him. He would not let me worm him tonight, dunno why as I have wormed him before. He got himself really wound up & started striking out. This wasn't aimed at me, but it's still not acceptable. I do have a problem reprimanding him, I have to be so careful with telling him off due to his previous abuse, I don't want to undo all the good work we have done.

I can't even show him a rug, he totally freaks and starts striking out & rearing, I haven't even attempted to put one on him, that's just holding it next to him! I think he is genuinely terrified, u can see it in his eyes - they are on stalks. I do think that this behaviour could partially be to get out of a situation also, mostly fear but a little bit of naughtiness too. I saw his breeder handle him & it was clear he was petrified of my horse too & I wonder whether he developed this strategy to intimidate the breeder if he had been man-handling him.

Anyway, I need to overcome this so was wondering if anyone has any experience of similar behaviour, suggestions of how to improve it?

I do everything with my horses myself, it's only ever me (I think this could be a problem in itself but unavoidable) so I need to be able to work with him myself, I have good facilities & I am an experienced horse owned & brought on many youngsters, I've never come across a 'quirk' like this though. :confused:
 
Wow, you could have been describing my Monty when I first had him! He was 5 years old though so harder to undo the damage (psychological). My best advice is don't do what I did!! I over compensated for his fear, and avoided telling him off because it upset him, and as a result he became more un-ruly as he worked out how to get his own way as he got stronger and got over the physical scars. You have to persevere, and try to make situations as simple as possible for him without you backing down. For example, with the rug thing, have you tried just putting a saddle cloth over his back? Then progress to a folded up exercise sheet, then unfold it, then a summer sheet etc? As for his fear of men, he may never get over it completely but what about asking a male friend on the yard to give him his feed each day? Or a carrot? Then progress to him brushing him (when you're there too so the horse feels safe). It's all about taking things really slowly, and making each step achievable, but have some ground rules, and tell him off if he breaks them. A firm NO will usually suffice, and it is reasonable for him to learn not to fear you for that.

Sorry if this is a load of waffle - it's difficult to put experience into words sometimes. I bought Monty over 10yrs ago now, and after some battles he's now a lovely horse, it's worth persevering. Horses aren't aggresive by nature, it's what we humans do to them that makes them so!
 
That makes total sense. A firm NO is about all I do with Jack and he understands that, I did shout a bit at him earlier & that was fine. He knows me now so I think he knows I won't hurt him & he does accept a telling off to be fair to him.

I keep my horses at home so it's only me about. Other half isn't into horses & is afraid of Jack as he's seen him at his worst so apart from giving him the odd treat over the gate, he won't go near him &that's probs for the best as I don't want Jack picking up on his fear & using it to his advantage.

I have been using a towel with Jack - he's ok with that, it's the rug, I don't know if it's the noise, size, etc. If there's a rug hung on the gate he will not go anywhere near it, not even for feed & he is a greedy bugger usually, nothng gets between him & food!

I've never had a horse that strikes out, just not really sure what to do with it, he lifts his legs so high, he actually hit the vet in the face when he was cut, it took 2 attempts, 4 sedations on the day, 3 people to hold him down & He was still kicking ! He intends on hurting when he goes for it! :eek: Thank God he likes me is all I can say!
 
Having his bits chopped off was never going to be something he enjoyed, and even the calmest horse can be tetchy arund vets - i think it's the anti-septic smell! I wouldn't worry too much at all about how he behaved for that - it's quite an ordeal for any horse really! Back to the rug thing, that's a good step with the towel, are the other rugs large/noisy? What about cooler type ones that don't make any sound and you can fold right down to put on gently? In fairness you've not had him that long and he may just need to see rugs around on gates, stable doors etc for a few more months before he trusts them. It can take a long time to teach a young horse anything, especially if you have to 'un-teach' someone elses abuse first! There's a really good book about bomb-proofing your horse, I can't remember who wrote it but it might be worth a look - it breaks things down into easy steps like i was saying. Even if it's just when your farrier comes, he gives him fed or treats, at least your horse will start to like him! :)

He's very lucky to have found you to trust, sounds like he had a rough start in life
 
There's no easy way around this sort of behaviour, but I do think for your own safety that you do need some help. Introducing a nervous and/or aggresive horse to new things like rugs requires 2 people, one to hold and one to perform whats necessary.
As you are not experienced with this sort of behaviour I urge you to find someone to help you who has. It sounds like an accident waiting to happen to be honest :(
If you don't know anyone, perhaps there is a forum member nearby who may help you?
Whereabouts are you?
 
Yeah, a fleece rug was going to be my next move. He hates outdoor rugs, I've been hanging them up everywhere to try & get him accustomed to them & having him in when all the other youngsters are being rugged, etc.

I've bought many youngsters who have been never been handled and they have been so much easier than Jack, the ordeal he must have been through must have been pretty grim, and all for a sale. He was behaving so badly in the sale the bid was between me & the meat man, seriously, the seller would have been much better off running him in as an un-handled blank canvas, not roughing him up & having a dangerous horse at the sales. Makes me mad! :mad:

Anyway, back to the subject - Nikki I am in South Wales, none of my friends have experienced anything like Jack and I don't really want to subject them to his behaviour, he surely will attack them. My sister tries to help but she is frightened of him, everyone who meets him is, apart from me!

If I managed to find someone, what would you suggest - helper to hold him, me to hold, tie him up? Vet suggested a twitch but I really don't fancy that, to me, that will only make experiences negative? Am I being soft?
 
dont twitch, go back to basic, get a stick with a sponge on touch him all over, then move up too something bigger like a tea towel, then go bigger, a cardie. if he trusts you he will be fine. Dont rush anything.

time is on your side, get your oh to help if you can.
find a farrier that has done alot of work with with youngsters, he or she will understand.

put rugs on the floor, on the gates of your field, let him stand on them.

most of all remember food is your friend.

I have and had have youngster like this and it is scary, and you are going why !!!!

what breed is he, and how big is he

good luck
 
Noooo to a twitch!

Aggression only builds agression and fear is the main cause.

If you can, try and work with him a bit more on building his confidence. Don't be scared to give him a firm no if he over steps the mark tho.

The boxing is really just him trying to say NO and by the examples you have given he seems to do this when he panics.

There are no shortcuts when dealing with horses who have had a rough time. You just need to be kind yet firm and consistant.
 
BugBee - He is partbred Welsh - 3/4 Sec D with a little TB & traditional coloured thrown in for good measure, can't be far off 14hh at the mo.

Glad u agree on the twitch, I did wonder if I'm being soft, I've had mixed messages on this. 'Old school' acquaintances seem to think going in all guns blazing with get him to back down but I know him & I don't think that's a good approach. We are doing well going along at our own pace so I think I'll stick to my way (with some good advice of course) As I say, he's is trusting & accepting of most things, it's just the odd thins now & again throws him. he cut his leg earlier & I was underneath him poking & prodding with him just stood loose in the field, my friend asking 'should u be doing that' 'I can't believe u trust him to do that', he is great most of the time & has come along in leaps & bounds.

My farrier is great, fair play, he stayed an extra hour last time he came to shoe for me, just to handle Jack & to get to know him. He is very patient & will give him all the time he needs.

I have used various items to touch him with & he's fine with that too. As u say, it's just time, he will come I'm sure of it. When I first had him I couldn't even get a head collar anywhere near him, he was so head shy & would try & box me, now it's not an issue at all. I just hope he grows out of striking out as that his not a nice 'habit' for any horse to have.
 
The behaviour you describe isn't aggression, it's defensiveness. Remember that horses don't have the reasoning power that we have so if a situation is terrifying for a horse, he won't be just waving his feet about to put you off, he'll be desperately fighting for his life. With a traumatised youngster (or any age really) you need to only go as fast as the horse can cope with. Tiny, tiny steps and always be ready to go back a couple if the horse is anxious and tense. There are plenty of methods of making a horse do what you want, eg twitching etc, but even if you win the horse has never been given the opportunity to make a decision for himself. So the unwanted behaviour may re-surface at any time.

Go right back and do everything in teeny tiny steps. Worming - disguise in feed, a handful at a time. Or will he take flovoured wormers or those tablets you offer in your hand? If that doesn't work, leaving it for a few weeks while you work on the trust issues won't hurt. With the rug, start with a tea towel folded into a tiny square. Let him sniff it - if necessary, balance a piece of carrot on it for him to take. Then gently stroke him all over, both sides of his body, with the tea towel. Unfold it a teeny bit at a time, according to how he's acting. He'll let you know if you're going too fast and if you are, you can always go back a stage and fold the tea towel up a bit again. When he'll let you leave the tea towel draped over his back (take him for a walk with it on, but not on a windy day!) move up to a bath towel. Same as before, fold it tiny. When you think he's ready, borrow a thin cotton cooler off someone and do the same thing again, ie fold up tiny etc etc. Over and over and over again. If you fancy showing off to your friends, you can stroke him all over with plastic bags until in the end you'll be able to chuck a tent over him and prop an opened umbrella between his ears and he'll just carry on eating his tea! Quiet repetition is the key with fearful youngsters. Good luck x
 
You need to learn how to use 'advance and retreat' with this youngster. It's a method by which you can teach him, over a period of time, that he need fear nothing. It's true that you need to take time with him, but you also need to make progress.

If you don't understand what he's 'saying' to you, there is a danger that he is giving you signals which you'll either miss altogether, or will mis-interpret, and that will cause confusion for you both.

The thing about training youngsters to accept new things, such as rugs, is you must present the horse with the stimulus, ie the rug, and advance it to the point where he is curious about it, but not afraid. If he becomes afraid of it, you are asking too much of him. He must be presented with it and, before he reacts adversely to it, it must be taken away. Don't take it away after he has freaked, but rather take him to the point where he is accepting of it without being afraid, then take it away. That way, you are allowing him to choose how close he wants this new thing to be and, by taking it away before he becomes afraid, you are teaching him that there is nothing to be afraid of and that if he accepts a thing it is not a danger to him. If he does become extremely afraid, you must make immediate allowance, allow him to find his safe place, and then, when he settles, take the thing away.

Try to do this outside of a stable, on a halter and long rope, so that he doesn't feel trapped and can move away if he wants to. If he chooses to move away, let him. He will find his safe distance, and that will be your guide to where he is in terms of acceptance and what you can expect of him for your next move.

Taking an object of a horse's fear (the stimulus) away when the horse is showing an extreme reaction to it is counter-productive. In fact, it is teaching the horse that if he reacts fearfully he will free himself of the stimulus. You need to teach him that he will only be free of it when he accepts it. His acceptance will depend on him finding a distance at which he feels safe. Only when he finds that place and accepts the stimulus should you take it away.

Each time he is presented with it, he will exhibit increased acceptance. This is him becoming desensitised to the stimulus, so you are using advance and retreat to teach him acceptance.

On the subject of using a twitch, I would suggest you don't use one. This is not because I think the twitch is cruel, but because I think, if you work with him as suggested above, there will be no need for a twitch.

Use of the twitch is an a very emotive subject. It's proper use demands an understanding of how it works. It's no good applying a twitch to a horse which is already pumped up with adrenalin. If you do ever decide to use one, there are several things you should know, the most important being that the twitch should always be applied to a calm horse before it gets wound up. A twitch should only be used for a maximum of fifteen minutes at a time because any longer will cause a violent reaction from the horse as the calming endorphins induced by the twitch are counter-balanced by adrenalin in response to the situation.

It's misunderstanding of the correct use of a twitch which creates problems for horses, and is the cause of so much opposition to its use. If you don't understand it, don't use it.

As far as reprimanding your horse is concerned, I'd advise you to take that completely out of the equation. Taking a frightened horse on aggressively to any degree is unnecessary and could be extremely dangerous. The horse already feels afraid enough to defend himself by throwing his feet around. What good can it do to chastise him in those circumstances. He's not being naughty...he's defending himself from something he's afraid of. The handler must take this into account and adjust his/her approach to suit the ability of the horse to accept the situation.

Personally, I never use negative voice or actions to train horses. Better to give them every opportunity to be good. If they are not coping, look to yourself before seeing fault in them.

Good luck.
 
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I would actually suggest you get some professional help as per the above post so you can understand what he is 'saying' a little bit better. My youngster who has been well handled and I don't think has ever been mis treated in his short life, does not like rugs or anything like that. We however just every so often put one near him and have put them on him when he's being held by one of us. We didn't use a NZ or anything like that but started with a quiet cotteon sheet just paced over his back. we have graduated to a heavier duvet type under rug and fasten it up and walked him about.

last night he was loose in the field whilst we were ruging up the others and, although he objected to the rug anywhere near his back he never actually ran away. It was like he was intrigued by the rug but not brave enough to let it touch him.

Your poor one sounds like he's very defensive and worried so i think it's all about slowly slowly catchy monkey! You do though need someone to hold him really before trying things like rugs on and just take things very calmly. Don't try rush him he will get there himself eventually - 4 mths is not a long time after a traumatic past.

With the striking out - I think once you build up trust that will subside. I wasn't surprused whenyou mentioned the welsh in his breeding though, my welsh x pony has always struck out at other horses (never people) but he is a very suspicious type and this is how he asserts his authority or expresses his anger at another horse (usually accompanied by the most horrendous, deafening scream!). I guess yours is doing the same really - trying to make himself look bigger and scarier and defending himself and, if the 'threat' goes away then what he's doing is working.

I think ideally you could do with a professional, calm, confident man to help at some point. I think a nervy horse responds to confidence from the human.

I have a lady coming to help me tonighgt with my youngster, just for some advice really on leading without him biting but she would deal with horses like yours. I don't know where you are in the country though but someone like this lady (sarah ussher) or Richard maxwell type could give you some good advice at trying to improve your horse's confidence in you and people in general. He may never be great with men but he does need to learn to curb his reactions some what!
 
Jackobean said:
Yeah, a fleece rug was going to be my next move. He hates outdoor rugs, I've been hanging them up everywhere to try & get him accustomed to them & having him in when all the other youngsters are being rugged, etc.

I've bought many youngsters who have been never been handled and they have been so much easier than Jack, the ordeal he must have been through must have been pretty grim, and all for a sale. He was behaving so badly in the sale the bid was between me & the meat man, seriously, the seller would have been much better off running him in as an un-handled blank canvas, not roughing him up & having a dangerous horse at the sales. Makes me mad! :mad:

Anyway, back to the subject - Nikki I am in South Wales, none of my friends have experienced anything like Jack and I don't really want to subject them to his behaviour, he surely will attack them. My sister tries to help but she is frightened of him, everyone who meets him is, apart from me!

If I managed to find someone, what would you suggest - helper to hold him, me to hold, tie him up? Vet suggested a twitch but I really don't fancy that, to me, that will only make experiences negative? Am I being soft?
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I would not advise a twitch, no. As you are not solving the problem by doing that.
I totally understand your worry about other people being frightened and subsequently hurt by him. But an experienced person in these things would not be scared of him and be able to deal with it in a confident and precise manner. I urge you to try and find someone, rather than struggle alone. You could end up with more problems than you started with :(
Do you have any studs around you at all? The reason I ask is because they are usually more than experienced with naughty youngstock, and confident too.
If you weren't so far away I would offer to help, but Newmarket is quite a distance from you, lol ;)
As Ladyt25 suggests, perhaps employing a professional to help is the way to go. OK, so it will cost money, but that is a small price to pay for your safety and his as well as a well mannered horse in the long run.
You must also remember that even if you manage to get a rug on, the chances are that once on, he will flip out and possibly hurt himself and/ or you. Being alone in that situation is not a good scenario.

But all this aside, is there any reason why you must rug him this year? There is absolutely no hurry surely? Our TB yearlings live out their first winter unrugged, and are absolutely fine. Why not give him a little more time, work on his confidence and yours, start doing other things with him and deal with the rugging issue next year?
 
I had similar problems with my youngster and tbh you need help. When my horse when on backing and schoollng livery having three very experienced confident handlers and a stable meant that most issues were dealt with calmly quietly and firmly. You at least need someone to hold him whilst you put the rug on and an enclosed space so he cannot tank off. If your on your own then teeny tiny steps with everything as you cannot "insist" only ask!!!
 
Nikkiportia - re: the rug issue, I could leave him unrugged I guess but I don't think he would withstand the weather. He's palomino/white with pink skin and has the finest coat I have ever seen. I've owned TB's with thicker coats than his. He's already started with a bit of rain scald on the tips of his ears so I don't think he'd stand a whole Welsh winter without anything on his back and I don't really want to keep him in as I'm a firm believer in keeping youngsters out, they seem much happier.

I've wormed him tonight, took it in his feed, no issue. I also then tried the empty syringe in his mouth just to see & he accepted it :rolleyes: Depends on his mood too I guess.

He's a funny little thing, all the suggestions mention tea towels, saddle cloths, etc. He's fine with all that, it's just outdoor rugs.

Striking out at men is an issue. However my neighbour (male) did manage to get Jack to follow him on the lead tonight & take a treat from his hand, even though he freaked out before & hid behind me like a little child, poor thing.

Ladyt25 - I would agree on the defensive theory, that's what I think. I don't think he's aggressive but he strikes out to avoid a situation in which he feels insecure / threatened. When he strikes out around me it will always be the opposite leg to the side I'm stood so I don't feel he's trying to hit me, just saying 'Oi, no'. Not sure about the Welsh theory, I have 8 horses all Welsh or Welsh P/B. Have owned many, many Welshies over the years & none have behaved like Jack. As a breed they are very switched on though & Jack certainly is.
 
Jackobeans. You are doing a very good job with a youngster that has had a very bad start in life, but go back to square 1 he's only a yearling and has been through so much even being gelded bless him, So start treating him like a foal, which I think he's not been able to be, back to basics like his mum would have done. It sounds like it's him against the world and for a pony of his age that is the lonelest place to be.rugging start with a small lightweight towel,when he's use to that,get one a little bigger and so on. If he's really stressed out about rugs there must be a reason why,surely at his age.
 
You seem tio have been given plenty of ideas to be getting on with. The only other suggestion I have is perhaps to contact one of the rescue horse and pony sanctuaries in your area. I'm sure they will have come across this sort of behaviour and may be able to give you some ideas from their experiences?
Good luck
 
I would suggest you bought Richard Maxwell's Birth to Backing book - very good ideas, even if you are experianced.

With the rug - one of mine is adverse to new rugs, fine with all others, but new ones make her spin and try to escape it. I have to be very positive and get it over her back, once it is over her, shes fine. Can you try a dirty old rug, well worn by one of the other horses?
 
WOOOOO HOOOOOOO we have success! He is finally wearing an outdoor rug! I am so proud of him!

I brought him in a fortnight ago and have worked with him everyday. Hung a rug in his stable which frightened the life out of him! Did the towel thing again & got him wearing the fleece regularly, which he didn't really mind anyway. We then moved onto the turnout rug.

This time, he didn't try to strike out & let me put it on him with the assistance of a lot of treats. He is such a greedy pony, he was more interested in what was in my pocket. I decided against asking anyone for help as he is so nervous of others, his behaviour becomes very erratic (especially being in the stable & an enclosed space) and being as we have developed quite a bond, I thought he would be most relaxed with just me with him. I managed to get the rug on him easily, he barely moved bless him.

He's like a different horse having taken him away from his playmates and keeping him in, such an amazing change in him. I am so proud of him & the way he has been behaving, I've had absolutely no nonsense from him whatsoever. Well done my little Jackobean. :o

Now we just have the man issue, vet issue, farrier, strangers, etc, etc, etc :D:D
 
I would suggest you look up some vids on youtube on confidence boosting groundwork etc and perhaps even get an intelligent horsemanship associate over to give you a lesson on groundwork, if you can be an effective leader that he trusts he will probably let you do more with him.
Plus groundwork will stimulate his mind and should become an enjoyable thing for you both to do.
We have a 18 month old gelding at my work and he was terrible for striking out, he is alot better since being cut but still strikes out to get out of things like picking his feet up etc.
Also when you introduce things to him such as a plastic bag, make it as small as possible and when you approach him with it do not stop until he stands and readliy accepts what you are doing, this may take a few attempts. if he tries to back off and you stop what you are doing you will be rewarding the negative behaviour.
If he lets you touch him with the bag, hold it there for literally 2 seconds to begin with then take it away and resume to something he enjoys, such as grooming?
then over time you can make the bag bigger etc, then use a rug much in the same way.
if he is stabled you could try leaving an old rug over the door or hanging up in the stable.

Good luck
 
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