Any types of horse not prone to Laminitis????

Tnavas said:
As Laminitis is in most cases a disease of POOR Management to me this would be a ridiculous reason for not breeding from a particular mare. There are far more important factors to consider, such as quality of conformation, action, temperament. Personally I would prefer a good doer over a poor doer any day. Not just for economic reasons but it is far easier to feed the right type of feed for the discipline if you are not having to worry about keeping weight on a horse.

ANY horse can come down with Laminitis if the right conditions exist.

Some horses are more predisposed to Laminitis and not in any particular breed.

I've had native ponies that have lived out year round and never had laminitis, I've seen TB yearlings with low grade Laminitis because of the quantity of feed being pushed into them to 'Grow them Big' for the Yearling Sales.

My Clydesdale mare is a fatty and I watch her diet really carefully, she still lives out 24/7 but her paddock has very short grass in it. Yet I have friends with Clydesdales who have to hard feed to keep weight on them.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/More-Insights-Into-Laminitis-Arabian/dp/1446156931 - Research into dealing with Laminitis in Arabians

http://www.ker.com/library/Proceedings/08/5_Laminitis_p57.pdf - Research by Kentucky Equine Research
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The most recent research into laminitis has shown that at least 90% of cases are due to metabolic issues such as ems or cushings. Purely management issues account for the other 10%.
 
Wagtail said:
The most recent research into laminitis has shown that at least 90% of cases are due to metabolic issues such as ems or cushings. Purely management issues account for the other 10%.
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Eventually yes - depends on the age and numbers they used in a study

It is a metabolic problem regardless of EMS & Cushings, but EMS is usually a result of long term feeding abuse and Cushings is generally also age relate.

Line up 1000 6yr olds that have had Laminitis and the majority will no doubt have Laminitis from over feeding and under exercising.
 
There does seem to be a lot more cases of EMS and Cushings and whilst the laminitis might be caused by these conditions what is causing the rise in numbers with EMS?

I think a lot of the problems are caused by the over consumption of Rye grass which is an unnatural grass developed as a cheap way of getting the weight on cattle. Rye grass is also a major cause of hay fever so I would not be surprised that the rise in summer COPD is partly linked to the increase in popularity of this grass.
 
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Tnavas said:
As Laminitis is in most cases a disease of POOR Management to me this would be a ridiculous reason for not breeding from a particular mare. There are far more important factors to consider, such as quality of conformation, action, temperament. Personally I would prefer a good doer over a poor doer any day. Not just for economic reasons but it is far easier to feed the right type of feed for the discipline if you are not having to worry about keeping weight on a horse.

ANY horse can come down with Laminitis if the right conditions exist.

Some horses are more predisposed to Laminitis and not in any particular breed.

I've had native ponies that have lived out year round and never had laminitis, I've seen TB yearlings with low grade Laminitis because of the quantity of feed being pushed into them to 'Grow them Big' for the Yearling Sales.

My Clydesdale mare is a fatty and I watch her diet really carefully, she still lives out 24/7 but her paddock has very short grass in it. Yet I have friends with Clydesdales who have to hard feed to keep weight on them.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/More-Insights-Into-Laminitis-Arabian/dp/1446156931 - Research into dealing with Laminitis in Arabians

http://www.ker.com/library/Proceedings/08/5_Laminitis_p57.pdf - Research by Kentucky Equine Research
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Ridiculous it may be but that is my choice. I am not advising anyone.

I really cannot be bothered with ponies that need special management or watching. It is simple too much hassle to be continually moving electric fences. I've not experienced the problem of a poor doer Highland yet though I suppose anything is possible. My stallion and two colts have been grazing in a paddock with some quite long grass. They haven't gone mad, just regulated their eating. Though I've had others (since sold) that would not know when to stop. Obsessive eating is definitely a disorder to my mind and it is a well known fact that metabolism is faster in some than others.
 
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SO1 said:
There does seem to be a lot more cases of EMS and Cushings and whilst the laminitis might be caused by these conditions what is causing the rise in numbers with EMS?

I think a lot of the problems are caused by the over consumption of Rye grass which is an unnatural grass developed as a cheap way of getting the weight on cattle. Rye grass is also a major cause of hay fever so I would not be surprised that the rise in summer COPD is partly linked to the increase in popularity of this grass.
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No not Rye Grass - we've had Rye grass since for ever - its the increase in people needlessly feeding their horses commercially prepared feeds high in unsuitable food stuffs. The biggest culprit I believe is SOY protein - Soy is known to cause metabolic problems in humans - there is no reason not to suspect it is stuffing up our horses.

I only feed straights and have done for over 40 years - I've worked in many yards with large numbers of horses and ponies - all fed straights and never had a case of EMS. the odd Laminitic pony has been one that has come on to the property and never suffered again from Laminitis and I've seen a couple of Cushings ponies - all in their early 20's.

Soy also is known to suppress the immune system too so this could also explain the rise in summer allergies. We've also seen a massive rise in the number of Head Shakers - a recent study I read suggested that additional salt is given to head shakers to make them drink more which removes excess Potassium from the horses system.
 
Dry Rot said:
Genetics/breeding is a subject that few understand and, when you think you do, it will surely up it's ugly had and kick you firmly in the back side!

I had a very interesting chat with a professional geneticist years ago when I was told, "Everything is genetic". He then aded, "…of course, an endocrinologist will tell you everything is hormonal!" A broken leg is not genetic, but a tendency to brittle bones might be. So, yes, I'd say a tendency to Laminitis is genetic…as is a tendency to getting sweet itch…or breaking bones. It is the breeder's job to aim to breed from stock that is 100% perfect.

(No Laminitis or sweet itch here yet, touch wood).
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As you know, I think this is a sensible precaution. Everything has a genetic component on some level, we just haven't worked out what it is yet.

And I consider myself better placed to comment on that than most...
 
JFTD said:
As you know, I think this is a sensible precaution. Everything has a genetic component on some level, we just haven't worked out what it is yet.

And I consider myself better placed to comment on that than most...
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I agree, I find it hard to believe that genetics has no part in the pre-disposition to lami and underlying causes.....whether It could be that the offspring just inherits the good doer gene (there must be one!?) and then develops ems/lami through being overweight, instead of an actual laminitis gene? I mean it happens in humans doesn't it?? If your parents have diabetes (similar to ems???) then the children are more likely to get it???
 
Kazza1 said:
I agree, I find it hard to believe that genetics has no part in the pre-disposition to lami and underlying causes.....whether It could be that the offspring just inherits the good doer gene (there must be one!?) and then develops ems/lami through being overweight, instead of an actual laminitis gene? I mean it happens in humans doesn't it?? If your parents have diabetes (similar to ems???) then the children are more likely to get it???
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type 2 diabetes is usually caused by diet and lifestyle and it is the same with ems, a horse or pony that is allowed to gain weight year on year is the most lekely one to get it
 
twiggy2 said:
type 2 diabetes is usually caused by diet and lifestyle and it is the same with ems, a horse or pony that is allowed to gain weight year on year is the most lekely one to get it
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As would the pony with an obsessive desire to eat and not stop?

Wasn't it Charles Darwin who suggested that there was a correlation between spinsters in an area and the predominance of clover in the pastures?

His reasoning was as follows. (And no doubt he had his tongue firmly in his cheek!).

Elderly single ladies often keep cats. Cats prey on mice. Mice make burrows that are favoured by bumble bees for making their nests. Bumble bees pollinate clover. So, if there are no mice to provide breeding places for bees, there will be no pollination and no clover.

For that tenuous reason I will not knowing breed for substandard stock, let alone breed from one that has no use except as a "companion or for breeding". Not guilty just means the prosecution's case has not been proved to the jury's satisfaction and there is still reasonable doubt.
 
twiggy2 said:
type 2 diabetes is usually caused by diet and lifestyle and it is the same with ems, a horse or pony that is allowed to gain weight year on year is the most lekely one to get it
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Risk of t2 diabetes increased dramatically with waist size (and waist-hip ratio) which is determined in part by lifestyle and in part by how one carries weight. And the latter is almost entirely determined by genetics.

And that's before you consider what in farming is referred to as an "RFI"... Or relative food index. We've been selectively breeding animals for centuries, selecting stock which are better at converting the same amount of food into more muscle (or less muscle, more milk / more eggs / etc). Meat stock should have a negative RFI - therefore is capable of putting on more weight per kilo of food supplied. This is genetic - it is bred into lines and breeds of livestock. The same basic genetics pre-determines the ease of putting on weight in companion animals, equines and humans - some animals and people have to work harder to remain "a good weight", or they would gain weight despite the same lifestyle as an equivalent animal. One of life's joyous little lotteries and all that.
 
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JFTD said:
Risk of t2 diabetes increased dramatically with waist size (and waist-hip ratio) which is determined in part by lifestyle and in part by how one carries weight. And the latter is almost entirely determined by genetics.

And that's before you consider what in farming is referred to as an "RFI"... Or relative food index. We've been selectively breeding animals for centuries, selecting stock which are better at converting the same amount of food into more muscle (or less muscle, more milk / more eggs / etc). Meat stock should have a negative RFI - therefore is capable of putting on more weight per kilo of food supplied. This is genetic - it is bred into lines and breeds of livestock. The same basic genetics pre-determines the ease of putting on weight in companion animals, equines and humans - some animals and people have to work harder to remain "a good weight", or they would gain weight despite the same lifestyle as an equivalent animal. One of life's joyous little lotteries and all that.
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this is all true but would support the idea that some need more management than others but that is down to long term care and prevention
 
twiggy2 said:
this is all true but would support the idea that some need more management than others but that is down to long term care and prevention
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I'll go along with that. I do believe that violent peaks and troughs in the supply of feed is a bad thing because when there is plenty, it is natural for an animal to attempt to stuff itself in anticipation of the next famine.

When I worked with hounds, we were never allowed to fuss over a poor doer. I remember one poor hound that stopped eating. The kennel huntsman refused to allow special feeding saying it would "cure itself". To my surprise, he was right. One day the poor emaciated animal staggered out and started eating -- and never looked back! Slow feeders I now tend to give a limited time to eat, then remove the food. It invariably works. But that's dogs, of course, not ponies, but it is surprising how often the psychology transfers. Children from large families are usually fast eaters!
 
twiggy2 said:
this is all true but would support the idea that some need more management than others but that is down to long term care and prevention
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Well obviously. But the question was "is there a genetic component?", to which the answer is almost certainly yes. That's not the same as saying some horses can't get it, merely that some are more likely to than others.
 
Very interesting debate and points drawn. I think every food being made with molasses can't help, as was discussed on here many times, trying to find a plain chaff is really difficult. I hadn't thought of soy but that makes sense to me, too, as a reason.
 
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