any vets around? desperate for help with agressive horse :(

A

almorton

Well-Known Member
Joined
2 March 2008
Messages
1,071
Location
GreyGates Sport Horses Lancashire
www.greygatessporthorses.co.uk
ok here goes.........i bred my rising 5yo and so have full history.
she has always been an absolute handful, and quick with her backlegs and teeth. got a lot better since breaking and coming in, currently stabled but on ad lib haylage, no hard food.

the issue is this, she is getting VERY bad to handle when there is food around, this includes haynets, bucket feed (couple of carrots!) etc.

the final straw tonight, she has bitten my mum when she moved a haynet from outside her stable and shes had to go to A+E to have her hand stitched up.
dont get me wrong, this is NOT a handling problem, we are a big livery/comp yard used to handling stallions, fit sharp horses etc.
so......
probably clutching at straws here, would ulcers cause this problem? never had much experience of them to be honest.
she is girthy and reacts badly to your legs (as she does to a lot of things she takes a dislike to!)

i am convinced there is a physical reason but i cant find it.
if she gets worse, im worried im going to have to call it a day for her.
anyone any other ideas?
any suggestions welcome! please no turn her out 24 / 7 ideas, just not possible, or give her a pat when you feed her, doesnt work, and teeth etc done no obvious signs of discomfort!
 
Put her on bute for five days and see if her mood changes. The bute is not a cure but will reduce pain. If the behavior improves investigate physical causes further.
 
mike007, thanks
good idea, am def going to bute her this week, need to get her scoped wed i hope 1st. obv if scope shows anything, wont go ahead!
mystiandsunny, thanks
she doesnt seem to worsen when in season, i may have wrong end of the stick but im not sure how hormones in system would relate to food, but will have chat with vet wed! :D def worth try!

anything else?
 
Yes it can be ulcers, which can also lead to a craving to fill the stomach to stop the acid splashing about. Can you change her to hay, some haylage is very acid? You can try her with ranitidine from any supermarket, own brand, 12 tablets a day in two halves. They will damp down the acid and may change her behaviour. The scoping will show you whether she does have them, but ranitidine could help until you know and is pretty much harmless, sold off the shelf in Tesco and proven to work in horses (though to cure them you need more frequent dosing, and omeprazole which is what your vet will prescribe will do a better job more easily).

If she has ulcers, bute may not be a good idea!

And lack of turnout is one possible huge aggravating factor and may be why she is getting worse since you started keeping her in, which is not explained by any of the other theories. If you genuinely can't give her turnout don't have her put down before sending her away somewhere where they can, will you?
 
tillysmum, thanks, shes ok back from hosp just a bit sore!

will ask about endocrine hormones! worth a shot!

cptrayes yes will try her on hay from 2mo, our haylage is low protein high fibre, more or less wrapped hay lol! but worth a go thanks!
shes not leaving here alive im afraid tho, shes too dangerous. she is as bad when out for 12 hours on the grass in the summer anyway. ive tried my best but the grazing round here is abysmal.

ive just been reading up about ulcers, what are everyones thoughts about giving her more feeds more often, say a good scoop hi-fi 3x day? plus the ad lib fibre still.
 
could be ulcers. scoping would tell you. but from your op you bred her? i think you need to take 3 steps back then approach this horse as a new arrival! she needs manners, and needs to learn respect! (often hard when you have bred them and had them from tiny cute foals) if she is very rude and aggressive around food, chain her up til stable, water, hay and feed are in, then let her down. i would change the haylage to good hay adlib.
 
ofcourseyoucan - this mare has had some SERIOUS manners work. trust me, she isnt dealt with as a pet and she was never a cute foal!
you may shoot me down for this, but she has had more than several good hiding with a good length of pipe and has never been backed off, we are a professional yard and have our ways and means of dealing with rude adolescent horses, but there is something going on with this mare i just cant get to the bottom of.
hence i said i think there is something physical wrong.
im not into dealing with the consequences, i want to fix the problem!
she will savage people on the way past her stable if she has a net 10 foot away!
hence she is now barred in.
but yes, ill change to hay. but i need to know why this mare is like this!
 
has she got any of the mare or stallion temperament traits? did her mother put her in her place or has she always been dominent? potassium bromide might calm her a bit? or rig calm? (yes i know she is a mare) yo could try having a marble put in her if she is very hormonal.
 
Nice to know I'm not the only one with a loony mare - although 'mine' belongs to a client and she was 'interesting' when she came to me for 'counselling' (as my vet calls it!). Staff have lovingly nicknamed her "Psycho b*tch from hell!"

She HAS improved a lot since she's been here - she's rideable now - and she hasn't kicked or bitten anyone in months! But she's totally unpredictable.

We went through the list of possible causes - had the chiropractor (she DID have back problems after another yard made a ba**s up of trying to back her.) Teeth were done, and her ovaries scanned for any evidence of a haemorrhagic follicle or GTCT. Nothing of any significance found.

She IS by a 'sharp' TB stallion - her dam is an RID mare with a good temperament but a bit livelier than many! Her 'feature' is she throws tantrums - during the bad weather, for example, she would get thoroughly pi**ed off at being out after about an hour - and you had two minutes to get her in before she got dangerous about it!

We've been lunging her in the Pessoa a bit lately, and she HATED it first time - spent 10 minutes trying to kick it into the middle of next week! Then settled down and worked well in it - MOST days! The odd day she goes back to throwing a total tantrum and kicking like crazy!

As to WHY? I too would wonder if your mare's mother was either very aggressive/top of pecking order - and foal learned from her - or if mother was a soft touch and never put foal in place. Either can produce a 'problem child'! Similarly, a mare and foal turned out without other mares and foals if mare doesn't discipline - and there is no-one else to do it!

And that might be the most likely - if she's been a problem since a very young age. How is she with other horses??

you may shoot me down for this, but she has had more than several good hiding with a good length of pipe and has never been backed off, we are a professional yard and have our ways and means of dealing with rude adolescent horses, but there is something going on with this mare i just cant get to the bottom of.
Click to expand...

I won't shoot you down - but it MIGHT be part of the problem. Psycho mare had been given some thorough hidings at the yard she was at last year, and she is SO distrustful of people she doesn't know!! But her attitude does NOT show as fear - more as 'I'll get them before they get me!' And sometimes it appears more like attention-seeking behaviour!
 
Last edited:
Do you feed her a lot of carrots? I only ask because my mare is the bitch from hell when being fed them she can handle a tiny bit now and again but anymore than that and she isn’t a nice person :( I know its probably something totally unrelated to them but thought this might be another trial and error area for you :)
 
Having read the rest of what you have posted, I would test for polycystic ovaries as well as ulcers.

I totally respect your decision not to let her leave your place. I have a mad KWPN who won't leave here alive if I cannot continue to care for him. I don't believe in passing problem horses on, it's not fair on the horse or the people whose hearts (and bank balances) they might break.

In the end, she may just be a completely rogue nutball and the fairest thing for everybody may be for her to be put down. You have clearly got a ton of experience and it's not you who is causing her behaviour.
 
No help really but I had a gelding like this who I eventually had PTS after every investigation we and vets could think of, also all and any alternative therapy we could think of including a horse communicator.

Good luck, she doesn't sound happy :(
 
How much of the agression is linked to the stable and its immediate vicinity? I had a complete killer who was also the sweetest horse you could meet.Out and about, he wouldnt hurt a fly , but within 10 feet of his box he turned from Dr Jekyl to Mr Hide. He was the only horse I have never been able to understand. The truth was because he didnt understand himself either. He had had some sort of major surgery and probably 6 months "box rest" when he was young. I suspect it turned his mind. I would have shot him rather than sell him,for his own good. Sadly he died suddenly and without any reason we could find.It truely broke my heart. Forget all that "accepted wisdom" that you must dominate an aggressive horse. For some it simply does not work. There are some that will just keep coming back at you and would rather die than surrender.There are some that you just have to work around the problem, and the more you do the more you start to understand .I truely do understand how you can find yourself desperate and lost. My best advice is to realise that this is also how the horse is feeling.
 
cptrayes said:
Having read the rest of what you have posted, I would test for polycystic ovaries as well as ulcers.
Click to expand...

Women get polycystic ovaries. Bovines suffer a condition that is referred to as a cystic follicle, but the same condition is not found in mares. The nearest thing is an annovulatory hemorrhagic follicle, but that usually presents with persistent anestrus.

I totally respect your decision not to let her leave your place....In the end, she may just be a completely rogue nutball and the fairest thing for everybody may be for her to be put down. You have clearly got a ton of experience and it's not you who is causing her behaviour.
Click to expand...

She MIGHT be. But I have to say that we have had 6 horses here in the last 3 years where we were the 'final solution' - if we failed, the horses were to be PTS. 4 have gone home to happy owners and are now well-behaved, useful horses, one has been sold to a suitable owner (a girl who works for me part-time and so I get regular updates - she is absolutely fine and a different mare). One is still here - and far improved - although not yet ready to be sold to anyone who would buy her.

It's not surprising that 4 of the 6 were mares! Mares can be very difficult to 'turn around' once they have gone 'bad' - and it's highly unlikely that the person who has owned and trained them while they were turning bad will cure them - they need a completely new start and a new approach - in a new place!! The problem - of course - is cost! There are no guarantees - there is always the possibility that a 'problem' horse IS incurable (sometimes due to an undiagnosed brain tumour).

Even when a problem horse can be 'cured' or at least improved a great deal, the cost may be more than the horse will ever be worth.
 
hi bit of an update!
thanks for everyones help, appreciate it.

not sure ive totally explained myself properly though still!
this mare is not a typical ''marey mare'', she has had some kind of personality change over the last 4-5 months, based around food, if that makes sense? she has always been very very sharp, but totally dealable with, if with a large dollop of patience!

janetgeorge, i think i do a similar job to you ;-)
a lot of horses have been to mine on a last chance and have blossomed, im not into beating them into submission or taking horses on (at 5'5 and 8 stone id be mad to! :D ) i work on patience and eliminating causes of behaviour, normally my methods work just fine. ive not had one yet thats not improved and been happy. but just sometimes, she has needed to know shes over stepped the mark, for example she cant go round chewing fingers off and spitting the bits out after! she was a madam with her dam, very cocky so i can see where your coming with that one! funnily enough, she is bottom of the pecking order with ALL other horses without fail! i cant work that one out.

the thing is with this mare, im convinced there is some physical reason for her sudden change, which is what i dont think ive made very clear!

anyhow, on some good advice off here, ive fed her a large fibre based (hi fi) feed before i rode her tonight, and also a couple of times through the day. result! although still snappy in stable, awful lot better to ride and tack up, so much so one of the liveries commented who didnt know what was going on.

so shes booked in for a scope on wed am. fingers crossed, sounds horrible but i hope they find something!

failing that, any other ideas?!
sorry, i know im getting a royal PITA! :D
amy x
 
janetgeorge, just re-read your last post!
im really hoping im wrong, but makes me wonder.
this mare had a very traumatic birth, took us 2 1/2 hours to foal her at 298 days (yes i know!) and i didnt think she would still be alive. anyway she was. then took us 12 hours to get her to suckle. had to bottle feed her at first as she was looking poor, on vets advice.
so just makes me wonder whether something is wrong brain wise, but surely this would have manifested itself sooner?
or would it not?
 
almorton said:
this mare is not a typical ''marey mare'', she has had some kind of personality change over the last 4-5 months, based around food, if that makes sense? she has always been very very sharp, but totally dealable with, if with a large dollop of patience!
Click to expand...

Ah - that changes things a bit. I think I'd be looking for a pain-related cause and ulcers would certainly fit the bill. Although if that fails, I'd be getting an u/s scan of the ovaries!

but just sometimes, she has needed to know shes over stepped the mark, for example she cant go round chewing fingers off and spitting the bits out after! she was a madam with her dam, very cocky so i can see where your coming with that one! funnily enough, she is bottom of the pecking order with ALL other horses without fail! i cant work that one out.
Click to expand...

No - that's unusual. I had one who was an 'only foal' - with a pushover of a mother - she grew up a total b*tch with other horses. I finally found a mare who was an even bigger b*tch - that sorted that!


anyhow, on some good advice off here, ive fed her a large fibre based (hi fi) feed before i rode her tonight, and also a couple of times through the day. result! although still snappy in stable, awful lot better to ride and tack up, so much so one of the liveries commented who didnt know what was going on.
Click to expand...

That certainly would be indicative of ulcers ... good luck finding some! (despite the horrendous cost of the Gastroguard!!):rolleyes:

Otherwise - scan the ovaries - looking for a haemorrhagic follicle or a GTCT!

sorry, i know im getting a royal PITA! :D
Click to expand...

Not at all! You CARE - and you're giving her a chance! That makes you a very decent, caring horse owner!!
 
Everone thinks they know the answers and one must be doing somthing wrong, right up to the point they come face to face with a horse like yours/mine. This is where you discover whether you are merely good with horses or the best. This horse is screaming somthing at you ,one way or the other ,Pain ,defiance, fear ,your job is to find out what she is saying. I truely wish I had been better at this and could have made my horses life easier.
 
mums ok thanks, just a bit sore but liking a few days grace from mucking out! :D

mike007, i understand every word you are saying! i hate feeling helpless, and i just dont quit once i get going with something, i normally rise to a challenge! i just cant accept i cant find the answers with this one, especially as shes mine, i know her inside out back to front and upside down. plus i really like the mare ( says a supposed hardened horse dealer lol! :D ) she has a home for life if shes safe enough to do her job.

yes she is one of those horses that you dread to think what would happen if you sold her on. she is exceptionally switched on and questions every move. normally, you can get her onside eventually. i guess they must be like people, some are mentally more stable, some less.

But, maybe there are no answers and ill have to accept her for what she is. in which case she will probably get some time out in the field until i can no longer provide for her.
until then, ill carry on throwing everything at her i can, ive got good vet backup and shes insured (** on my knees thanking god** :D ) and you never know, perhaps we can work out how to cheer her up a bit!

ever bit helps so keep contirbuting please!
 
I kind of think that you are as stubbourn as me . Trouble is ,thats where I went wrong!. I truely am"old school" equestrian, but in this situation it completely failed me. You have to throw out the rule book. There has been lots of seriously good advice about ovaries and ulcers, but I think maybe your problem is a lot deeper. (i hope it is a simple vets fix but I am guessing you would be there already)AsI said ,this horse is shouting out at you and you are not hearing her. A simple fact , any horse can kill a human without even raising a sweat . Bang ,its done. But they dont! They plead with us and warn us and tell us but we generaly miss the point. Yet they still give us room. The kindest animals on the planet. This mare is at the end of her tether ,you have to find common ground(without endangering yourself). Listen to her. I know I sound like some hippydippy bunny hugger ,but I learnt the hard way.
 
We had a horse at our yard who was extremely aggresive and would try to bite people and other horses. It turned out the yard was just too 'busy' for him and he moved to another yard with his owner and is a compeletely different horse, much more laid back. Sometimes horses can get stressed particularly if they are stabled on a busy throughfare part of the yard.
 
As horses arn't naturally aggressive animals it is usually pain related or the worse case a brain tumour causing nasty behaviour. Maybe she's just a bad egg :( Hope you manage to sort it.
 
almorton said:
janetgeorge, just re-read your last post!
im really hoping im wrong, but makes me wonder.
this mare had a very traumatic birth, took us 2 1/2 hours to foal her at 298 days (yes i know!) and i didnt think she would still be alive. anyway she was. then took us 12 hours to get her to suckle. had to bottle feed her at first as she was looking poor, on vets advice.
so just makes me wonder whether something is wrong brain wise, but surely this would have manifested itself sooner?
or would it not?
Click to expand...

I would be VERY surprised indeed if the prematurity of her birth has anything to do with it - normally a foal less than 300-310 days won't survive - but it's the immaturity of the lungs that is the problem. I've had red bags etc that were horribly hypoxic at birth, and a 'dummy' foal - but all grew up just fine.

The only likely effect of her prematurity MIGHT be that all the attention she got in those early days made her think she ran the world!:D My 'dummy' just grew up to be the quietest and most laidback horse in the world from all the attention - but he was male. Fillies are a bit smarter - they can draw ALL sorts of conclusions from different experiences.
 
almorton said:
hi bit of an update!
thanks for everyones help, appreciate it.
funnily enough, she is bottom of the pecking order with ALL other horses without fail! i cant work that one out.
Click to expand...

All the time I was reading about this horse I was thinking back to a mare I knew who acted EXACTLY the same. She was my friend's very talented show jumper. I was terrified of her after the day I leant over her door to check if she had haylage. I don't know what hit me but she nearly took my arm off! It was mid winter and I had five layers of clothes on including a thick padded jacket. Yet my arm was left black and blue from the shoulder down to the elbow. Yes, as it turned out she was ALWAYS hungry and yes, she was the bottom of the pecking order with the other horses. The only time she was safe to handle was under tack, and then she was a changed horse. My friend was bitten and kicked no end of times and finally sold her when the mare struck out at her with her front feet in the field and broke her sternum. I was horrified when she told me she had sold her to a 15 year old telling them she was 'a bit grumpy in her stable'! I am sorry that I can't help you. But it just seems strange that they both had the same characteristics. I have to say I understand you not wanting her to leave your yard unless she is cured. Only when you are on the receiving end of such aggression from a horse can you fully understand where you are coming from. I would NEVER sell on a horse with this kind of dangerous behaviour.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top