any vets around? desperate for help with agressive horse :(

JanetGeorge said:
Nice to know I'm not the only one with a loony mare - although 'mine' belongs to a client and she was 'interesting' when she came to me for 'counselling' (as my vet calls it!). Staff have lovingly nicknamed her "Psycho b*tch from hell!"

She HAS improved a lot since she's been here - she's rideable now - and she hasn't kicked or bitten anyone in months! But she's totally unpredictable.

We went through the list of possible causes - had the chiropractor (she DID have back problems after another yard made a ba**s up of trying to back her.) Teeth were done, and her ovaries scanned for any evidence of a haemorrhagic follicle or GTCT. Nothing of any significance found.

She IS by a 'sharp' TB stallion - her dam is an RID mare with a good temperament but a bit livelier than many! Her 'feature' is she throws tantrums - during the bad weather, for example, she would get thoroughly pi**ed off at being out after about an hour - and you had two minutes to get her in before she got dangerous about it!

We've been lunging her in the Pessoa a bit lately, and she HATED it first time - spent 10 minutes trying to kick it into the middle of next week! Then settled down and worked well in it - MOST days! The odd day she goes back to throwing a total tantrum and kicking like crazy!

As to WHY? I too would wonder if your mare's mother was either very aggressive/top of pecking order - and foal learned from her - or if mother was a soft touch and never put foal in place. Either can produce a 'problem child'! Similarly, a mare and foal turned out without other mares and foals if mare doesn't discipline - and there is no-one else to do it!

And that might be the most likely - if she's been a problem since a very young age. How is she with other horses??



I won't shoot you down - but it MIGHT be part of the problem. Psycho mare had been given some thorough hidings at the yard she was at last year, and she is SO distrustful of people she doesn't know!! But her attitude does NOT show as fear - more as 'I'll get them before they get me!' And sometimes it appears more like attention-seeking behaviour!
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You are describing my mare to the T - just having her investigated for ovarian tumour.... I bred her, also have siblings who all have the sweetest temperaments, so its not just how she is. Vet has found one very large ovary and one very small one - am awaiting blod test results.

I always put her behaviour down to being 'spoilt' within the herd as a foal - no one knocked her down her pecking order, and she will be VERY aggressive towards some horses for no rhyme nor reason and will frog march others round the field like a stallion.
 
Blimey Amy, I had no idea!

My only suggestion would be to feed ad-lib chop and forage and see if her being full had any effect. Feed her more food than she can look at. That and the obvious scoping and checking for ovarian issues. I can't say it screams brain tumour because she's fairly consistently badly behaved and I always thought it was uncharacteristic and randomly unpredictable behaviour indicated those.

Sounds like a food and stable (personal space) thing going on. What size box is she in and is she in a row with horses either side or isolated, is it a standard construction or very light and airy? She sounds mightily pissed off at something and I'm certain it's nothing you have done badly or wrong or uncaringly, more like overlooked it because it's just too obvious - but it's winding her up to the ceiling! The pissedoffness is carrying over into her work is my bet, and possibly made worse by discomfort.

Apart from being a real worry, this is a very interesting problem!

Of course you could always breed from her...;)

PS Give my love to your mum x
 
I think you need to listen to Mike on this thread.

Although you are clearly very experienced, can you take a step back?

Always question the methods you use.
Use what you choose with understanding, knowledge, feel and compassion.
 
hi everyone!
for those of you that may not have seen the update, i thought id post again!

thanks loads for everyones input and suggestions.

i took her to the vets wed am for a scope, and lo and behold, she has got stomach ulcers.
more than several, grade 1+2, around the exit from the stomach.

i dont think the vets have seen anyone as ecstatic that their horse has ulcers! :D
so on gastrogard for 28days min, hoping its significant and these are the root cause of her behaviour!

so fingers crossed.
i rode tonight, has had 2 x doses of gastroguard now, and no standing up or napping. hoping thats a sign of things to come!

anyway once again, thanks for all input.
amy
 
I have read this thread with great interest, and am very pleased to hear that you have found the reason for your mares aggressive behaviour.

To be frank I am not really suprised that it is ulcers, but I am always a bit wary of long range diagnosis as not having seen the animal, it's never a good idea.

However, now that you know what it is, the reasons for it's appearance will be, I assume your next quest.

As someone who suffered with ulcers myself for fifteen years, your horse has my sympathy as I know only too well the pain and foul temper, that this condition can create. I was taking antacid and acid suppressant pills on a daily basis, and it was only after undergoing whats called an erradication, which involves a massive dose of anti bacterial drugs that the condition was cured about twelve years ago and luckily, has never returned.

The interesting thing about it though, is that until fairly recently, no one believed that ulcers were caused by bacteria in the stomach because it was generally accepted that no bacteria could live in the highly acidic conditions. However, an Australian scientist called Marshall found that the cause was in fact Helicobacter pylori, which caused massive amounts of acid to be released into the stomach in the body's effort to rid itself of the bacteria. The rise in acidity levels resulted in ulcers in the anterior of the stomach and duodenum.

My own thoughts on equine gastric ulcers, tend to favour the theory that, as Helicobacter pylori has not been identified in horses, and that race horses and performance horses are the most prone to ulcers, the fact that problems arise when you bring a horse into stable confinement and then feed large quantities of concentrate - whether it be grain or pelleted feed. Grain or pelleted feed increases the level of a hormone known as gastrin, which is released by the stomach and acts as a stimulant for acid secretion. Then after eating his grain, the horse might stand for some time without eating hay, and all the while he is producing acid.

Management has to be the answer to protecting horses from ulcers, and if 24/7 turnout is not an option then ad lib access to hay or haylage, whilst removing grain and pelleted feed from the diet will reduce the incidence of ulcers.

It has been said that by those actively studying equine ulcers that allowing a horse to live like a horse is his best protection.

It may seem ironic that the perceived improvement in equine feeds in the modern arena may well be responsible for inflicting on our horses a disease they would not otherwise have encountered.
 
Laura1812 said:
You are describing my mare to the T - just having her investigated for ovarian tumour.... I bred her, also have siblings who all have the sweetest temperaments, so its not just how she is. Vet has found one very large ovary and one very small one - am awaiting blod test results.

I always put her behaviour down to being 'spoilt' within the herd as a foal - no one knocked her down her pecking order, and she will be VERY aggressive towards some horses for no rhyme nor reason and will frog march others round the field like a stallion.
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The very large ovary (with the tumour) and very small ovary (a result of testosterone) - combined with the behaviour - would make a Granulosa Theca Cell tumour odds-on favourite. The tumour secretes testosterone which makes the mare behave like a stallion - some become very aggressive and will mount other mares (and fight geldings!)

Thge GOOD news is that once the ovary is removed she will be back to normal! And if you wanted to breed from her in the future there's no reason why you couldn't!
 
almorton said:
hi everyone!

i took her to the vets wed am for a scope, and lo and behold, she has got stomach ulcers.
more than several, grade 1+2, around the exit from the stomach.

i dont think the vets have seen anyone as ecstatic that their horse has ulcers! :D
so on gastrogard for 28days min, hoping its significant and these are the root cause of her behaviour!
Click to expand...

That IS good news! Now you know, you can deal with it - and hopefully no more injuries!
 
JanetGeorge said:
The very large ovary (with the tumour) and very small ovary (a result of testosterone) - combined with the behaviour - would make a Granulosa Theca Cell tumour odds-on favourite. The tumour secretes testosterone which makes the mare behave like a stallion - some become very aggressive and will mount other mares (and fight geldings!)

Thge GOOD news is that once the ovary is removed she will be back to normal! And if you wanted to breed from her in the future there's no reason why you couldn't!
Click to expand...

thanks Janet that is really reassuring to hearas she is rather a nice mare and a foal is the plan - doubt it will be this year now, but next year fingers crossed.
Do you have any suggestions as to the best eqquine vets to send her to for the op - preferably i want it done standing and am willing to take her wherever i need to in the country to get the best possible care i can for her
 
Laura1812 said:
thanks Janet that is really reassuring to hearas she is rather a nice mare and a foal is the plan - doubt it will be this year now, but next year fingers crossed.
Do you have any suggestions as to the best eqquine vets to send her to for the op - preferably i want it done standing and am willing to take her wherever i need to in the country to get the best possible care i can for her
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Yep - this year will PROBABLY be out - at least for an early foal! Takes a while for the little ovary to kick back into 'normality'.

Whereabouts in the country are you? Three Counties are great, J. Pycock is great, Frwyrny (Sp) are great, plenty of good repro vets around and it's not a particularly complicated procedure.
 
JanetGeorge said:
Yep - this year will PROBABLY be out - at least for an early foal! Takes a while for the little ovary to kick back into 'normality'.

Whereabouts in the country are you? Three Counties are great, J. Pycock is great, Frwyrny (Sp) are great, plenty of good repro vets around and it's not a particularly complicated procedure.
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South Devon

Good to know 3 counties do it - I saw Newmarket do but its an awful long way to go if there are people that can do it closer!
 
Hi this is good news. My aggressive horse who sounds very like your mare has just been scoped (if you are interested you will see my thread under 'advice please re Gastric ulcers'). He will bite visciously anyone passing his stable. He is now out 24/7 on Gastrogard, Sucralfate and on adlib hay and 3 non cereal fibre feeds (Simple systems now) a day. I think his aggression was worsened by his diet. I fed Copra (coconut feed high in protein 23%) and Alafa A oil thinking tat this diet would be good for a horse with suspected ulcer, but it seems absolutely not so - many horses have problems with high protein and Alfa A oil it seems is common in stressing out a normally calm horse!! I don't know what you feed? I couldn't see that in your thread, but beware that many 'high fibre' feeds contain straw fibre which is bad for ulcers!!!
My only exclamation to your note is you said you rode your mare? My vet and 3 other owners I know with horses with ulcers were told to absoultely cease any ridden or lunge work for the duration of the Gastrogard treatment. If the horse is in pain/uncomfortable in the gut surely you wouldn't work them until that pain is truly treated? Just a thought......
 
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