Any Vets in? Help needed urgently please

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Llwyncwn

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Hoping you can help and anyone who has had a similar experience.

A horse came onto the yard a couple of months ago and I immediately had concerns about his health. He is 14.2hh Arab x Welsh rising 20, GREY. Melanomas under his dock, increasing amounts in his sheath and two new ones on each side of his neck. He weighs 420 kilo's and resembles a hat rack.

Full blood profiles just came back tonight, all normal except that he is losing protein. The lab says that we should be concerned about the amount of protein loss. Vet thinks it could be Lymphosarcoma (sp), probably not in the gut as their is no diarhea. To confirm this he would need to be scoped which would need surgery. He is not insured and the owner cant afford this.

He has lost a considerable amount of weight in 4 weeks and is now looking like a real rescue case. He is starving hungry all the time but wont eat much haylage. I knew this horse 7 years ago and he always finished as many hay nets as he was given. His teeth have been done, wormed Equest and recently Pramox. When he arrived I put him on a high fibre, high oil diet and have upped his feed to 4 a day. His stable smells terrible and has done since he arrived. No excessive water intake and quite bright in himself.

His owner didnt ask for details of the results. When the vet came yesterday to take bloods he gave him a B Vit injection (the wonder drug!) and put him on antibio's for a few days. His temperature was normal. Vet asks that we give him a couple of days and ring him. Owner wants to pts now.

Your help and any observations would be so much appreciated.
 
typically in lympho you would expect a raised temp, increased thirst, general listlessness and an unwillingnes to eat ...all dependant of course on how far the disease is progressed. What is he being fed presently?

(Also replied in NL)
 
Is the stable stink his wee or poo? I have no inkling about the potential condition but to go on and pts on possibly a hunch does seem a little rash. However if the owner wont spend the money it would seem there is little choice but to pts if this is what that condition dictates.

Mind you saying this I have a similar situation with one of mine which, had I gone with the original gut instinct would be gone by now, as it is he still isntt right but things do look more positive at least in the short term.

The difference is that Im prepared to spend on the vets doing tests in the knowledge that they could actually be a complete waste of time.

Hopefully someone with knowledge of the condition can give you some sensible advice as opposed to my limited support!
 
I am sorry to hear about this poor pony. Our 20yr was pts in Nov with cancer. He however actually got bigger. His stomach was very distended with odeama. He was also very bright in himself.
I decided to pts when he became lame on his back legs(cancer of penis)
The thing is that 6wks down the line I feel it was the biggest mistake.
To way it up he had cancer,odeama, smelt terrible,was incontinent had night sweats BUT he was so happy to see us,all of the time.Loved his hacks right up until 6 days before pts.I couldn't tell if he was in pain but the vet said he was!!
He never lost his appetite either.
So why the hell did I do it?
The biggest problem is that they can't tell us when the time is right.
Only thing I feel is that at least he never seemed ill although he was. Also the weather changed after he died and I wonder how he would have coped now with -4!
not much help I'm sorry but I feel for the owner. Big hugs to them.
 
Thanks both.

Band End - His temp is normal, poo normal. Feed atm (owner cant afford anything else) Hi Fi, D&H Country Cubes, speedy beet, half pint veg oil and carrots. Have recommended all sorts
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Span - (hello) - The smell is definitely urine. The vet did ask if horse had recently had cough/pneumonia as his right lung was weezy. Owner is going on holiday next week for a fortnight so I have asked her to let me and Box_of_Frogs nurse him during that time. I will also ring my vets tomorrow and cost a scope. Owner has 5 kids and different priorities.
Hope your ned is OK.
 
Im so sorry to hear about your horse. Please dont beat yourself up hun, better a month too early than a day too late. Some horses have a greater pain threshold and dont show their illness and pain and who knows what happens at night when we are all tucked up in bed? You gave him a last kindness that all loving owners should do. x
 
I lost my old pony to a Lymphosarcoma and wish that I had reacted sooner.
He suffered gradual weight loss over a couple of months, and a small amount of odema on his stomach. Investigations by my vet revealed protein loss. He remained bright and alert, with a variable appetite. He appeared to improve when the spring grass came along but then suddenly went down hill very fast within 24hrs with an increasingly high temperature, at this point there was only one decision to be made and he was quickly pts. My biggest regret was that we allowed him to get to point of suffering, once we had an almost certain diagnosis given his age we should have made the kind decision sooner - But it's all very well to look back in hindsight.
Sorry to be doom and gloom but that's my experience.
 
H - looked this up on a reputable veterinary website and if it is lymphosarcoma it's not good news. Bearing in mind I'm just a lay person, there appear to be links to skin tumours (which may even be the primary tumour) and the likely involvement includes the liver and spleen where secondaries form. Chemotherapy (if available) is prohibitively expensive and an unlikely option. Lymphosarcoma appears to be a relatively common cancer of the digestive system in middle aged/older horses.

My only concern would be to be absolutely certain that this is the correct diagnosis before any final decisions are made. It's very easy for a frantic owner to not hear right or not ask the right questions when dreadful news is given. The vet site said ultra sound scans can be done (non invasive and cheaper) to identify the typical lymphosarcoma "footprint".

Sad night.
 
I can only relay my experience and hope somehow it helps...


My mare was PTS last year with Lymphosarcoma.

Her symptoms were...a month previous, swellings appeared under her jaw and behind her jaw...painful at first but within a couple days not painful.. No other symptoms at that time.
A month later, on CHristmas Eve, I went to feed as always and she refused to eat (most underheard of). She'd been eating normally up till that point although in the previous couple of weeks (in hindsight) she'd slowed down. Her respiration was up and she had some oedema under her belly at the front. The vet came to see her and immediately thought heart failure. The vets were stumped though because she had no temperature, her bloods came back as only slightly raised and she was given painkillers and antibiotics. She looked so well but over the next days she gradually got worse. She didn't eat/drink over those days, her oedema spread, her lungs filled with fluid and she went blind on the last day which is when we called it a day.
She had a PM and was riddled..
 
Thank you so much for that Honeypots, it must have been painful to re-live the loss of your mare.

Who knows how long the lymphosarcoma works away quietly in the background undetected, but it seems that once it makes itself known that its effects are rapid.
 
Canasta, You really shouldn't feel bad about your decision to pts your pony when you did. It sounds as if he went before he had too much time to feel pain and discomfort. He went while life was still pretty good, and that's how it should be. His multiple illnesses would have caught up with him sooner or later and you saved him any potential misery and those dreadful panic phone calls to vets in the middle of the night.
You made the right decision at the right time for your chap, and it's the best we can all do when the time comes. ((((((hugs))))))
 
[ QUOTE ]
Thank you so much for that Honeypots, it must have been painful to re-live the loss of your mare.

Who knows how long the lymphosarcoma works away quietly in the background undetected, but it seems that once it makes itself known that its effects are rapid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely...the only other possible symptom I can recall was a year previous she had a bout of colic out of the blue but thats it. May have been related, may not and as she lived out 24/7/365 she could have had many more for all I know.
I think what baffled my vets so much was the fact that she was only 13yrs old and never been sick or sorry in the 8 yrs I had her. She seemed, apart from the symptoms I described, in perfect health
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This was her the day I called the vet..
24122007386.jpg


Anyway...I do hope you get to the bottom of what is wrong with your boy..I was lucky in a way in that it was so quick for Ellie and she didn't appear to suffer too much
frown.gif
 
Canasta...you absolutely did the right thing.
If I could have had my mare PTS before her symptoms became appartent I would have done. To see my beloved mare go blind overnight and start headpressing will always stay with me..if I could take those last two days back I would...
I only hope she didn't really know what was going on at that point
frown.gif
 
Her pic bought a tear to my eye HP, a big strapping girl looking the picture of health, Im so sorry. It makes it much harder when they are so young - you feel robbed.

I have just spoken to my own vets about Tango (not owners vet) who tell me that there is another simple test to see if this could be granulosis entoritis which is a glucose absobtion test where the glucose levels are taken over a 2 hour period. If it proves this is the case then it could be treated with low level steroids and he would start to improve almost immediately. If not, then we have an answer. A scope would mean starving him for say 36 hours and even after that time there is still food in the gut and difficult to get a good camera show. For a horse who is so thin anyway, I ask myself is this really fair? If this is 'protein losing entropathy' caused either by larva or alimentary lymphoma, it can be treated.

Owners vet just phoned me. He DOESNT think its lymphosarcoma, he said 'lymphoma' which is a less agressive form which can be treated long term with low level steroids. He said that he gave Tango a shot of steroids and owner has told vet that Tango is much better this morning! Steroid tablets are only 8p each, so lets see where this goes. I couldnt live with myself if he was pts without actually knowing, for sure, that he was on his way to Rainbow Bridge without checking out the facts first.

Watch this space.
 
Hmmmm. Long term steroids might cause Tango more probs H. If he was mine, I would defo NOT do the scope test - too much misery and too much uncertainty. But anything else which can give a definitive diagnosis surely has to be done? I have a feeling that the glucose absorption test also involves starvation - my OH is borderline late onset diabetes and has annual glucose absorption tests which always involve starvation followed by controlled intake of a sugary solution and hourly blood tests. Also, would the steroids actually address the illness or simply mask the symptoms, which is what they are good at, speaking as an experienced knee- and elbow-injected patient!

What's owner's next move H?
 
I'm sure I am telling you what you already know but please be careful with the steroids and watch out for laminitis. Poor chap, I hope you can help him.
 
Honeypots your mare looks so much like my boy! Thank you showing the picture. stomach similar shape too before the odeama spread from chest to groin. Thanks for your support. I suppose I am just greiving and wish that I hadn't had to make that decision for him.
My thoughts are with Tango for a good outcome.
 
Sorry to say this buy my old grey mare who was pts at 18 had several melanomas which started appearing from the age of 10. They never seemed to cause her any props until she got older and the pony's symptoms appear to be very similar to hers. We went down the testing / scoping / route at great expense. There was very little treatment that can be offered. I would have had her PTS earlier if I had known that all I was paying for was complex series of tests which were never going to cure her or make her better, for her own sake.
 
Thanks for asking canasta. Tango's owner was all set to pts next week however, last night he was bouncing about in the field showing off when it was time to come in, so his owner has agreed to give him the benefit of the doubt and try the steroid tablets (very low dose) and another 3 vit B doses.

I will move him into the main stable block where he will have lots of company and will be warmer.

As quite often happens when the dreaded 'decision' is made, some horses seem to make a marked improvement, known in the trade as 'coffin dodgers', but at least the owner will know one way or another in a few weeks/months time. With owners permission, I will hopefully get some pics for you all to see.
 
I lost my horse to internal tumours (I didnt have a PM so exact type was unknown) He developed severe diarrhoea and weight loss and swelling around his face. He had masses of melanomas and so many in his rectum the vet was unable to do a rectal exam. His blood showed severe protein loss. I opted for PTS rather than extensive investigations due to the fact he had other chronic problems and the probability that the outcome would be hopeless regardless.

Sorry not to be more positive but that is my experience.
 
Thanks for the update so fingers x'd for him for a reprieve.
I found that those last few weeks helped as I could spend plenty of time with him and come to terms with it before it happened. It was still the most horrible thing I have had to do but at least it was planned and so not a total shock.
I hope mum and little girl cope ok.
 
My friend's pony nearly died last year - developed a complete lack of appetite and honestly was like a skeleton. They put her on steroids as a last ditch attempt and the little madam has never been so well! She looks like she has all the signs of being an EMS sufferer - slab sides and massive crest with no weight anywhere else - but the steroids would either kill or cure her and she faced pts anyway. They are so glad they gave them a whirl.

So the steroids may just save him, if they are the only thing left to try.

Canasta - you did absolutely the right thing, and it sounds to me as though the timing was perfect. I know, I have just been there, too and you should have no regrets whatsoever (((hugs)))
 
All i am going to say is if the owner cant afford treatment or insurance what the hell is she doing with a horse in the first place.
Honestly you either insure or have back up reserves to pay for treatment insurance wont cover.

Its not the horse that wants shooting it the owner.
 
I couldnt agree more B. Every horse on the yard is insured, however I took this horse in as the loan home was going to tie him to a garden gate if the owner didnt take him back. Usual story 'Oh, loan home said they would continue insurance' blah, blah.

Tango started steroids today. Yesterday he was cantering around his paddock and showing off, that was before steroid tabs. He is so bright in himself and owner has given me permish to take pics. Will post asap as he is, then weekly as he (hopefully) improves.

I totally agree with your sentiments B. She has owned Tango for 10 years.
 
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