Any Vitamin E experts?

[ycbm]

I can't find anything online that can answer this so I'm coming to the great and good of HHO to see if there's an answer here.

Back story, horse has been fit and healthy and looking great but needing more food than he should have to maintain his weight.

Bloods are clear, general vitamin and mineral balancer did nothing but a week of high levels of vitamin E has put weight on him in the coldest week in ten years. He has the genes, being a spotty, to need vitamin E.

Here comes the question. He has always, from 2 when I bought him onwards, stuck a leg out behind him like this. To watch, it just looks as though he forgets it when he comes to a halt. It isn't locked and it has never locked. (The standing over on the fronts is simply how he leant forward to grab some hay at that moment, it's not the way he stands). He's been looked at by a vet who says there is nothing wrong with him, and to forget about it unless he does it more with one leg than the other, which he doesn't.

Over the last year he has done this less and less. Until this week, when he is back to doing it so much that is easy to get a photo of it. The timing is bang on for the vitamin E, but I can't find any information that suggests it will be any more than a huge coincidence.

Over to you, experts, is there any reason you know of why high levels of vitamin E would make him go back to standing with a leg out behind him?

 

[paddy555]

It may be a coincidence however I don't think you can rule out the vit E. I only have experience of equimins oil but I suspect from my own horses and others who have used different products that, if it is dealing with a deficiency, equimins works very quickly and possibly more quickly than the powdered ones. If you have been giving it for a week I would expected changes to have started by now if they were going to (musclewise) . I started to see a slight change in 1.5 days and within a week we were getting muscle change.

If he had muscle soreness and stiffness (internally in the muscles) you could have a situation where it is causing the muscles to relax. Did he stop stretching out behind because it became more painful and now it is becoming easier again.
If he is putting on weight it could simply be that he is less uncomfortable, the muscles are relaxing and not only is his body relaxing he is "relaxing" in the digestion of his food. Maybe he was slightly stressed (mentally) with tightness in his muscles and now they are easier he is calmer/more relaxed about eating.



Horses in the same home who are not supplemented with E I believe gradually get worse and worse. (that is based on my own experiences) ie it is ongoing as they get more depleted. In youngsters it probably doesn't show very much as they are either not working or work is pretty minimal as they are broken ie simply walking etc,

It may be he had different food in the past, a bit more grass in summer, he was a growing lad so eating more grass for more growth, less work so more E storage. Perhaps his hard feed was slightly different with a tiny bit included in the manufacturing. Possibly a tiny bit more in his haylage depending on when it was cut. He coped, then the work got more and slowly he started to run out.

 

[SEL]

Mine spends so much time looking like she's standing on a ball that legs stretched out are a good sign. For her it's that gut pain, muscle pain circle and on the rare occasion she feels well she'll stretch a back leg.

So could be a good sign with yours - is he feeling better overall as well as the weight gain?

 

[ycbm]

I don't think there's any possibility that he had muscle soreness and stiffness Paddy, his work has never been better and with his genes and having had PSSM and vitamin E dependant horses before I check for muscle issues constantly.

I'm working on a theory that vitamin E has stretched the stifle ligaments but I can't find anything to support that hypothesis.
.

 

[ycbm]

Mine spends so much time looking like she's standing on a ball that legs stretched out are a good sign. For her it's that gut pain, muscle pain circle and on the rare occasion she feels well she'll stretch a back leg.

So could be a good sign with yours - is he feeling better overall as well as the weight gain?

Not really SEL, because he was feeling great before it. He's a joy to ride, flexible, athletic, elegant and powerful too.

 

[paddy555]

I don't think there's any possibility that he had muscle soreness and stiffness Paddy, his work has never been better and with his genes and having had PSSM and vitamin E dependant horses before I check for muscle issues constantly.

I'm working on a theory that vitamin E has stretched the stifle ligaments but I can't find anything to support that hypothesis.
.

so going back to when he stretched out before what then caused them to tighten and restrict his legs standing out behind?

I don't see if that is your theory why it would have caused possible weight gain? Has he actually put on weight or is he standing better/differently.

I see your comment on post 5. Some horses perform as they feel and some are just so generous and give everything even though it may not be quite so comfortable.

 

[ycbm]

Vet's and physio's view is that they were never "tight" and it's just a habit. He looks like they are stretched out behind when he's standing, but if you watched him do it he just walks along and stops and "forgets" to bring in the last leg, whichever one it is.

He is such a loose moving horse i really think I'd know if he had tight muscles. He's never moved better.

I judge his weight by feeling fat cover on the ribs standing normally and the same every time.

 

[paddy555]

Vet's and physio's view is that they were never "tight" and it's just a habit. He looks like they are stretched out behind when he's standing, but if you watched him do it he just walks along and stops and "forgets" to bring in the last leg, whichever one it is.

He is such a loose moving horse i really think I'd know if he had tight muscles. He's never moved better.

I judge his weight by feeling fat cover on the ribs standing normally and the same every time.

in that case I don't see why his strange "habit" should start again with vit E. It would suggest to me that something is going on much deeper than can be felt on the surface. It will be interesting to see how he progresses after a couple of months on a reasonable dose of vit E.

 

[ycbm]

That's what puzzles me too, Paddy, I can't see a reason that I can find any support for online. If it's the vitamin E and not pure coincidence, then I would suspect that the vitamin E allows more stretch in the ligaments in the stifle that cause the locking stifle problems in other horses. Physio and vet say the same that it would often be a stifle issue that causes a horse to leave a leg out behind like this. So that when he is walking and stops, he's not getting the proprioception of a pulling in the ligament to remind him that the leg needs bringing in.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what he feels like to ride, it's difficult to imagine he could feel any more flexible that he does already, but at minus five without the wind chill factor I'm not sure it's going to be today!

I've worried about this habit non stop for three years, I guess there's no point stopping now

 

[Trouper]

Quite honestly, ycbm, I think now I would be asking Tom Beech (The Osteopathic Vet) to find a date in his diary for me (or at one of his clinics). Because he takes such a holistic look at the horse it is not just about looking for any one particular problem but sometimes things are so inter-linked that standard veterinary consultations just don't make the connections.
Just a thought.

 

[ycbm]

Thanks, but he doesn't have a problem, and if he did I would want my own vet and physio to look at him first.

My comment about worrying was meant to be flippant.
.

 

[Marigold4]

Nothing to with vitamin e, but I thought I would just mention that I had a horse that did this due to a tight hamstring.

 

[quizzie]

Just a suggestion, but as he is a growing ,relatively weak young horse, many of his muscles and ligaments will be loose/weak until he has matured and done the years of strengthening (can you tell I have big young horses!)

I do not think the Vit e has any proven effect on ligaments, but it is possible that the higher levels are allowing a fuller range of movement of the muscle fibrils and thus increasing the overall range of movement....
Thus he may feel great when moving as can fully contract and relax each muscle, but possibly at rest, that relaxation almost becomes flaccidity?...so allowing the leg to be left out behind.

I suspect that as he works more and gets older, this may resolve.

 

[paddy555]

if you google around vit e and ligaments but human then there are hits. If you can separate out those selling stuff there may be a scientific reference.
You could try contacting either Steph valberg or Dr Kellon (either directly or via ECIR group) They may have more knowledge on this, especially Valberg.

I know exactly the movement you mean.

ETA I haven't had time to look but is there any clue on UC Davis site. There is stuff on there re vit E.

pps so agree about the wind chill! Bl**dy freezing.

 

[MissTyc]

I have wasted many years of my life worrying about how my horses stand ...

I say that as someone who keeps a mental spreadsheet of which leg is rested by which horse ... and promptly worries if it doesn't seem to be a balanced distribution. One horse on my yard stands like yours - always has, probably always will. Now 18. Could the Vitamine E be a factor? I liked the first response on that = relaxation of the muscles enabling a favoured pose to return. Or it could be a red herring.

I get the award for most useless reply of the morning

 

[spotty_pony]

Ycbm - sorry completely off topic but very interesting that spotty's lack vitamin E. I didn't know that was the case. Let me know if it helps yours gain weight, my spotty could do with gaining a little more but I hadn't thought of Vitamin E.

 

[ycbm]

He's been on 5000iu (RDA 2000, I think) for ten days in the coldest weather in 10 years and I am only waiting for this cold snap to end to reduce his food.

Spotties, given the often high level of QH shared genes, are high risk for muscle myopathy, hence the need for vitamin E. I'm hoping mine is only a vitamin E junkie

Short term, dosing vitamin E is low risk and worth a try. It is toxic in high volumes (10,000iu) to horses that don't need it. Worth a try. Buy natural or double dose synthetic.
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[palo1]

I think re: spotties and their tendencies it helps enormously to know their pedigree; as ycbm says the lines that are heavily influenced by QHs are more likely to have these muscle related issues. When I bought my spotty I was absolutely clear that I didn't want any QH of any quantity at all; this meant looking at the well known lines (eg Amazing Blue etc) to identify which to avoid. Because the Appies tend to have QH, TB or Arab blood it also pays to look at weaknesses in the TB lines. Secretariat in there would slightly concern me. My appie x has little or no QH in his breeding - which makes him more of a spotted anglo-arab than anything else!!

 

[ycbm]

Unfortunately in my case the father isn't registered. But his mum is a standardbred harness racer and if I look at his bum it looks very QH influenced to me. I knew it was a risk, as I was just selling a PSSM half bred when I bought him, but I really wanted the spots. If a bit of vitamin E myopathy is all he has I'll be pleased.
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[palo1]

Unfortunately in my case the father isn't registered. But his mum is a standardbred harness racer and if I look at his bum it looks very QH influenced to me. I knew it was a risk, as I was just selling a PSSM half bred when I bought him, but I really wanted the spots. If a bit of vitamin E myopathy is all he has I'll be pleased.
.

Yes, indeed; a bit of Vit E is not a deal breaker! I almost got my youngster biopsied for PSSM but the PPE vet felt it was not necessary in view of his specific breeding. In any case if you look too closely into almost any breeding you might find something undesirable...but I do think that where there is a genetic component to any weakness it helps enormously to understand the bloodlines so you can decide what to do. Where a horse is unregistered you just have to take pot luck and often that is fine as the unregistered horses are often less fraught with genetic issues anyway.