Anybody else against small pony jumping?

gosh what a statement to make in public!!!!
My daughter jumps her 138cm at a good level...she has spent the last 9yrs coming up the grades from 1ft6 fences on a 128cm brought as unrideable to a top little eventing/jumping pony jumping 1.10 tracks...and now the last year on a totally unmade newforest jumping and winning at pony of the year show and Bath and west and just qualified in the pony club level 4 eventing...which i'm sure many of us would be to scared to do a 3ft6 crosscountry course never mind learn the dressage test at such a young age!!! Not all theses ponys cost the earth and are push button and many many of the kids come up through the pony club and have every day instructors not top trainers!!!
Maybe you are yet another arm chair jockey who likes to slate these poor kids because of the mis-concieved belief they have thousands of pounds thrown they way....give it a try go out and jump a 1.20+ course under pressure see how it feels.
 
baily said:
gosh what a statement to make in public!!!!
My daughter jumps her 138cm at a good level...she has spent the last 9yrs coming up the grades from 1ft6 fences on a 128cm brought as unrideable to a top little eventing/jumping pony jumping 1.10 tracks...and now the last year on a totally unmade newforest jumping and winning at pony of the year show and Bath and west and just qualified in the pony club level 4 eventing...which i'm sure many of us would be to scared to do a 3ft6 crosscountry course never mind learn the dressage test at such a young age!!! Not all theses ponys cost the earth and are push button and many many of the kids come up through the pony club and have every day instructors not top trainers!!!
Maybe you are yet another arm chair jockey who likes to slate these poor kids because of the mis-concieved belief they have thousands of pounds thrown they way....give it a try go out and jump a 1.20+ course under pressure see how it feels.
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Well said!

Out of Interest how old is your daughter and can I just say how INSANELY jealous I am!! lol
 
baily said:
gosh what a statement to make in public!!!!
My daughter jumps her 138cm at a good level...she has spent the last 9yrs coming up the grades from 1ft6 fences on a 128cm brought as unrideable to a top little eventing/jumping pony jumping 1.10 tracks...and now the last year on a totally unmade newforest jumping and winning at pony of the year show and Bath and west and just qualified in the pony club level 4 eventing...which i'm sure many of us would be to scared to do a 3ft6 crosscountry course never mind learn the dressage test at such a young age!!! Not all theses ponys cost the earth and are push button and many many of the kids come up through the pony club and have every day instructors not top trainers!!!
Maybe you are yet another arm chair jockey who likes to slate these poor kids because of the mis-concieved belief they have thousands of pounds thrown they way....give it a try go out and jump a 1.20+ course under pressure see how it feels.
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If you've read some of the earlier posts you will see that we are not talking about children like yours. She sounds like a very capable rider who looks after her ponies and has instruction.

Also in earlier posts its has been said the this thread was worded badly and what would have been better is some young riders need more instruction before competing at high level.

So before you have a go read the rest of the forum and you will realise that I am not having a go at every single rider who does BS.

And on a side note I have done a 1.30m course under pressure!
 
I think that the most important thing about kids riding is that they have to enjoy it, if we start nagging on about lower leg positions when they have just succesfully jumped then the enjoyment will soon evaporate! That doesn't mean that I condone bad riding, but we shouldn't be getting too picky.

Lots of these riders are very capable jockeys, and I'm not denying that lessons can be beneficial, but if they are already competing successfully, then they may not see the need for lessons, until of course they move onto different ponies/ horses and may require their skills refining.

When I was a child - a long time ago now, it was a case of being told the basics about position and aids and then get on with it - you soon learned to balance and use aids that worked and had lots of ponies to ride to gain experience. As I grew older and became more serious, although not competetive, then I started with lessons and I would imagine that most riders are the same.
 
i did read all the thread before i made a comment(i always do)....and your right you did start the subject of badly worded...which is easily done...but i still felt that these kids need to be praised more than slated for what they do...you only have to watch them course walk before the start of a 128/138 poys class to get an idea of what they are about to undertake ...many of the children can't even see over the top rail of the fence in front of them and i can clearly remember my daughter walking between the spread and not being able to touch the front and back rails!!!! And this was to be face on a 12.2 pony(128)...not a strapping big horse!
Yes some of the top ponys cross hands for a lot of money but many are like ours bog standard animals who have that "extra" about them which makes them take on these fences....they still have to be ridden or like every one knows these ponys soon learn to take the **** out of the tiny jockeys and won't jump...ponys are not machines...they learn a lot quicker than horses which kids are good enough to ride them and capable...
a lot of the time you only have to listen to the parents of these kids give them a complete slatting when they come out of the ring if a pole has come down to know where the kids get it from...they in turn take it out on there ponies..remember monkey see monkey do!!
 
My argument would be that maybe the structure of these classes needs to change slightly, to be a true way to lay down the foundations of showjumping allowing children to move up through the levels and onto horses, as that seems to be one of the main problems, and what is holding back the GB team that have so much success at a pony/ YR level but not beyond.
 
I sort of see your point however the post title was utterly stupid.

My friend coaches the junior team (and a lot of other junior riders) and believe me when I say these kids work HARD and most of them have come out of education to train.

Yes, there are kids who are bought ponies worth a fortune and probably couldn't get a tune out of something quirky, but if the owners are prepared to sell to the highest bidder than it's not really anyone else's business.

The Whitaker kids, for example, learn to ride and compete on cheap ponies that they have to work hard with at home. They then go on to do very well in seniors. However, how many kids have parents with the knowledge and experience to help their child produce a mediocre pony? Of course they're going to buy their kid a proven mount if they have the money to do so.

At the end of the day, those who spend time and effort on training and education are the ones who, if they can afford it, will go on to do well in senior classes. If they don't put in the effort that's their loss, not yours.

So, in answer to your original question no, I am not 'against' small pony jumping. Yes, it'd be nice if more kids took up the opportunities to train but if they don't I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
 
saturdaygirl said:
My argument would be that maybe the structure of these classes needs to change slightly, to be a true way to lay down the foundations of showjumping allowing children to move up through the levels and onto horses, as that seems to be one of the main problems, and what is holding back the GB team that have so much success at a pony/ YR level but not beyond.
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It may help if decent horses were kept in this country rather than sold abroad to the highest bidder.

Oh and to whoever said only ten junior riders have gone on to be successful in seniors - I'm afraid that's complete b*****ks!
 
Don't get me wrong some of these kids are bloody amazing! Especially the ones who put up with their parents shouting at them constantly!

But I definatly think more training is needed cause it seems that the only training they are getting are the really really good ones and the ones who taske it upon themselves to do it which some don't.

As they learn better at that age if they got trained properlly it would stick for life and then moving onto horses would be a lot easier for them.

Like someone said a class where they get scored on their style like equitation would be so good for the sport and I for one would support the BS if they decide to have those classes.
 
saturdaygirl said:
My argument would be that maybe the structure of these classes needs to change slightly, to be a true way to lay down the foundations of showjumping allowing children to move up through the levels and onto horses, as that seems to be one of the main problems, and what is holding back the GB team that have so much success at a pony/ YR level but not beyond.
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It may be different over there but here at least many junior riders don't continue because they run into the harsh reality of having to support themselves.

It's can be hard to make the transition between relying on parental support and paying for it yourself. And some simply lose interest.

Equitation is very big for juniors and at the top levels it is very expensive. It would be interesting to see if the winners of our finals are still in horses 10 years later.
 
SophieRIDSH said:
It may be different over there but here at least many junior riders don't continue because they run into the harsh reality of having to support themselves.

It's can be hard to make the transition between relying on parental support and paying for it yourself. And some simply lose interest.

Equitation is very big for juniors and at the top levels it is very expensive. It would be interesting to see if the winners of our finals are still in horses 10 years later.
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I think this is one problem over here but as your still a junior until 16 many people are still supported by their parents.

The main problem is that people are not used to riding precisly on ponies as they tend to get you out of trouble so when they go onto horses they have problems.
 
As with most things,it's the experiance of the rider in question not what is being asked.
There are plenty of 12 year old children that are very good riders and I have no issue with them jumping whatever height their pony is capable of doing.
On the other hand,there are also plenty who need a few more lessons on the flat before even looking at a jump :p

Sadly the idea that getting to the top is all that matters seems to be creeping into the horse world which is a great shame,I would guess it comes from pushy parents who are spending a lot on chids hobby and want to see something in return!
The best have always been the ones who took the time to get the basics right before moving up.
 
If you want to marked more on style rather than speed, then go in workers frankly.

Having smaller round on ponies at that level is not then elite competition going round a 2ft6/2ft9/3ft etc class. You can get that at local level. This is major Junior JA, of course it's got to be competitive heights! And saying talant doesn't come into it is utter ludicrous as there's not many kids at that age I'd stick on an oated up fizzy as hell JA pony and expect to go round a 1.20+ class like they do!
And then you can't say small ponies shouldn't be jumping that height, then what, stick youngster on 'proper' sized horses if they want to do that height? Hardly.

Anywho.

I think junior JA is fantastic personally, yes some round might not look pretty....but if you've got either the talant to ride bring them on and round them consistantly or the money to buy a top pony and still be able to ride it round consistantly - there's talant there either way. Just because the small minority of ones which can't ride talented but go out and buy a top notch pony, doesn't mean they'll be winning just because of this. Pony might bail them for the first few times, but gradually cracks will show and the combination will fail, horse and rider lost nerve and pony sold on cheaply or turned away...hence someone else gets a rather talanted pont at a bargain. Works out in the end, not that the pony should have been ruined to start, but again, small minority!

The ex-grade A here is prime example. Yes, he'll happily go round a 1'60 track....but no way can you just go 'over to you' and expect him to just bail you out and take you round without riding properly! 50:50 both ways.
Anymore or less, and the horse and rider partnership will fail like in anything.

Rambled on really and not sure whether an answer to the OP or not but hey ho. Tired, hurting and cranky :(
 
I feel very qualified to comment on this as buy and sell BS ponies from 128 upwards (decent novices) and have dealt with a lot of the "top kids" in the course of business. The pony maketh the rider is true in some respects but ALL the really decent families have one "top" pony and then at least one good novice for the child to produce on. The good novice ponies (who will go on to be the future 50k ponies) are hard to find, but you will know from attitude, scope and the way the pony thinks for itself if it has half a chance. The reason most of these children who have very good ponies as juniors fail to go on to be sucessful in horses has nothing to do with what pony they have ridden. It is normally because at 16 they then wish to have a life, break away from the CONSTANT weekends of away shows and have some "normal" friends. Finance is also an issue as if you not 110% dedicated you won' want to be paying out to support your string on your own if your parents withdraw funding. The parents are also hard pushed to find decent horses that are pony like enough so as not to scare their child, but also talented enough to go above 1.20. Agreed with poster who says to buy one YR horse or 3 talented novices which is a hard choice! Unless you have A LOT of serious money it is very hard to find a decent string of good YR horses that will take any mistakes that the rider may wish to throw upon them! Most families who are serious about their SJ will be looking to purchase the first horse to move on to when child is about 14/15, this gives them a year to get used to it and start with a few low key senior shows without the pressure. The children on horses classes are a whole different kettle of fish, and these are more schoolmaster types who will jump round 1.25 safely, however, they still need a decent level of riding!
 
anima said:
As with most things,it's the experiance of the rider in question not what is being asked.
There are plenty of 12 year old children that are very good riders and I have no issue with them jumping whatever height their pony is capable of doing.
On the other hand,there are also plenty who need a few more lessons on the flat before even looking at a jump :p

Sadly the idea that getting to the top is all that matters seems to be creeping into the horse world which is a great shame,I would guess it comes from pushy parents who are spending a lot on chids hobby and want to see something in return!
The best have always been the ones who took the time to get the basics right before moving up.
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I think some parents have a lot to do with it, as you say its all about getting to the top as fast as possible.

I was at this one show watching the 128 winter series after my class, and this one girl looked absolutly terrified and was crying etc her dad was shouting at her to go a do it, bless her she did it but she looked as white as a ghost when she cam out in floods of tears. I think she fell off numerous times in the warm up.

My mum has always said if your not enjoying it don't do it, or if I have a bad warm up and decide to do a smaller class she won't mind, I'm so glad she wasn't pushy as I think I would have given up.
 
anima said:
As with most things,it's the experiance of the rider in question not what is being asked.
There are plenty of 12 year old children that are very good riders and I have no issue with them jumping whatever height their pony is capable of doing.
On the other hand,there are also plenty who need a few more lessons on the flat before even looking at a jump :p

Sadly the idea that getting to the top is all that matters seems to be creeping into the horse world which is a great shame,I would guess it comes from pushy parents who are spending a lot on chids hobby and want to see something in return!
The best have always been the ones who took the time to get the basics right before moving up.
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Exactly.
 
Kokopelli said:
I just think they need more training before competing at high levels, it is easy to distiguish a rider with training to one who doesn't get any.
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Well, it seems that's one way of weeding out the poorer riders. Which is what showing is all about, isn't it?

We don't really see the amount of ponies here that you probably do there but I don't really see what you're advocating. Height restrictions? Tests of ability? (that would seem to be a jumping class to me) A requirement to have lessons?
 
Kokopelli said:
Like someone said a class where they get scored on their style like equitation would be so good for the sport and I for one would support the BS if they decide to have those classes.
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Please dear lord no. Over here, the majority of the youngsters jumping classes include the 'equitation' element, and it is positively painful to watch. The 'style' that has been decreed 'right' is not at all comfortable to watch, and doesn't encourage good 'classical' type riding (whereas most children learning to ride in the UK riding schools / pony club etc. have a style based largely on classical). Moreover, they are often so concerned about being 'pretty' that basic safety and survival take a second place. I have seen not incompetent little riders fall off over 1'6'' fences because the prettiness they were trying to maintain didn't allow for dealing with a naughty pony who put the brakes on! I have literally caught one of these children who ended up around a neck, because 'heels down' is 'wrong' (which to an extent it is, but when you have a pony who stops dirtily, surely the first priority is the kid staying on, prettiness second?). I had no qualms about dashing under the rope and grabbing said child before she landed on her head and as she was plonked back in the saddle I advised her to keep her heels down, which she did in the next class, and whilst she didn't win, she stayed on when the pony threw in a stop.

The children here are as a whole, less secure, less able riders than I see at UK shows. Of course there are exceptions, but it tells me that a rough and ready style, with 'safety' position taught as par for the course (as I was taught, and as I taught others in the UK) is better, on balance, for safety, than pretty any day of the week.

The other part, safety concerns aside, is that it comes down to an opinion of a judge - it is everything I hate about showing! If Mrs. Bunsaby-Smyth bred your little darling pony, is she going to mark it down? Showjumping is exceedingly nice in a world of cliques - you either get around clear or you do not.

Then you have the 'right' pony for equitation - it is often a 'pretty' pony with nice paces, but not necessarily any decent jumping ability. Some of the best equitation ponies here cannot clear what we would regard as a 'decent' height fence in the UK. Either SJ is a sport or it is not. By all means have a second type of sport, but changing the rules depending on age will be harmful to the sport - ride prettily on a pony jumping medium height fences, and then be utterly overwhelmed by height at 14/16 years old when it changes to 'adult' style?

For those who think expensive, well trained horses are 'easy' point and shoot affairs, that is not my experience in the slightest. I used to ride a few horses one might assume were 'point and shoot' horses, but in reality they were some of the most sensitive, most easily upset horses I have ridden. Shift your weight slightly, and it will refuse / knock a fence / have a hissy fit. Touch your reins slightly to the horse's dislike, hit the deck. Yes, if you turned them to a fence, and kept in perfect balance, didn't interfere in the slightest, gave them exactly the right support, they made it look as smooth as a dream. But that requires a fair amount of ability on the rider's part. I found it blooming difficult to ride those horses, having ridden and schooled horses to work in partnership with the rider for years, it is very hard to then become a passive passenger. My guess is that these ponies cannot (if we are talking show sucess) like a riding school pony, nor can a riding school pony be ridden like a show jumping pony - but that is no different from the fact you don't ride a riding school cob in the same way you ride a Grade A SJer.
 
I help at low level BS seniors and juniors. I can easily say that overall the juniors ride much much better (eta apart from the hhoers that come obviously :o) , some on very nice ponies plenty on ponies that require riding but most, well I wish I could ride like them. Yes mistakes are made but often the kids are their own biggest critics.

The best jump off I have ever seen was the 148s jumping 1.50 in a 3rd round jump off at a local pony premier show what those ponies and riders managed was truely spectacular.
 
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emma69 said:
Please dear lord no. Over here, the majority of the youngsters jumping classes include the 'equitation' element, and it is positively painful to watch. The 'style' that has been decreed 'right' is not at all comfortable to watch, and doesn't encourage good 'classical' type riding (whereas most children learning to ride in the UK riding schools / pony club etc. have a style based largely on classical). Moreover, they are often so concerned about being 'pretty' that basic safety and survival take a second place. I have seen not incompetent little riders fall off over 1'6'' fences because the prettiness they were trying to maintain didn't allow for dealing with a naughty pony who put the brakes on! I have literally caught one of these children who ended up around a neck, because 'heels down' is 'wrong' (which to an extent it is, but when you have a pony who stops dirtily, surely the first priority is the kid staying on, prettiness second?). I had no qualms about dashing under the rope and grabbing said child before she landed on her head and as she was plonked back in the saddle I advised her to keep her heels down, which she did in the next class, and whilst she didn't win, she stayed on when the pony threw in a stop.

The children here are as a whole, less secure, less able riders than I see at UK shows. Of course there are exceptions, but it tells me that a rough and ready style, with 'safety' position taught as par for the course (as I was taught, and as I taught others in the UK) is better, on balance, for safety, than pretty any day of the week.

The other part, safety concerns aside, is that it comes down to an opinion of a judge - it is everything I hate about showing! If Mrs. Bunsaby-Smyth bred your little darling pony, is she going to mark it down? Showjumping is exceedingly nice in a world of cliques - you either get around clear or you do not.
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Yup, do be careful what you wish for
http://equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/hunter_jumper/jumping_clinic_classics_071910/
 
The american hunter/jumper classes look like a poor mans excuse for working hunter! I've watched a few videos on you tube and can only describe them as painful to watch.
 
emma69 said:
Please dear lord no. Over here, the majority of the youngsters jumping classes include the 'equitation' element, and it is positively painful to watch. The 'style' that has been decreed 'right' is not at all comfortable to watch, and doesn't encourage good 'classical' type riding (whereas most children learning to ride in the UK riding schools / pony club etc. have a style based largely on classical). Moreover, they are often so concerned about being 'pretty' that basic safety and survival take a second place. I have seen not incompetent little riders fall off over 1'6'' fences because the prettiness they were trying to maintain didn't allow for dealing with a naughty pony who put the brakes on! I have literally caught one of these children who ended up around a neck, because 'heels down' is 'wrong' (which to an extent it is, but when you have a pony who stops dirtily, surely the first priority is the kid staying on, prettiness second?). I had no qualms about dashing under the rope and grabbing said child before she landed on her head and as she was plonked back in the saddle I advised her to keep her heels down, which she did in the next class, and whilst she didn't win, she stayed on when the pony threw in a stop.

The children here are as a whole, less secure, less able riders than I see at UK shows. Of course there are exceptions, but it tells me that a rough and ready style, with 'safety' position taught as par for the course (as I was taught, and as I taught others in the UK) is better, on balance, for safety, than pretty any day of the week.

The other part, safety concerns aside, is that it comes down to an opinion of a judge - it is everything I hate about showing! If Mrs. Bunsaby-Smyth bred your little darling pony, is she going to mark it down? Showjumping is exceedingly nice in a world of cliques - you either get around clear or you do not.

Then you have the 'right' pony for equitation - it is often a 'pretty' pony with nice paces, but not necessarily any decent jumping ability. Some of the best equitation ponies here cannot clear what we would regard as a 'decent' height fence in the UK. Either SJ is a sport or it is not. By all means have a second type of sport, but changing the rules depending on age will be harmful to the sport - ride prettily on a pony jumping medium height fences, and then be utterly overwhelmed by height at 14/16 years old when it changes to 'adult' style?

For those who think expensive, well trained horses are 'easy' point and shoot affairs, that is not my experience in the slightest. I used to ride a few horses one might assume were 'point and shoot' horses, but in reality they were some of the most sensitive, most easily upset horses I have ridden. Shift your weight slightly, and it will refuse / knock a fence / have a hissy fit. Touch your reins slightly to the horse's dislike, hit the deck. Yes, if you turned them to a fence, and kept in perfect balance, didn't interfere in the slightest, gave them exactly the right support, they made it look as smooth as a dream. But that requires a fair amount of ability on the rider's part. I found it blooming difficult to ride those horses, having ridden and schooled horses to work in partnership with the rider for years, it is very hard to then become a passive passenger. My guess is that these ponies cannot (if we are talking show sucess) like a riding school pony, nor can a riding school pony be ridden like a show jumping pony - but that is no different from the fact you don't ride a riding school cob in the same way you ride a Grade A SJer.
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I had absoulutly no idea equitation was like this! I knew it has to be sort of controversal as most judged sports are (showing and dressage).

Hmm perhaps were better off with the kids charging around at some speed then riding "perfectly" and falling off when the slightest things happen.

Some of these responses have definatly given me a lot to think about!
 
You might be interested (or might not, but I'll tell you anyway) in the system that works in my home country.
There is something akin to grading, only the other way round, so:
anybody can jump up to 1m classes at which point the style/technique judged classes start. In order to compete at 1.10, you need to jump 4(I think) of 1m style classes with a score below 3.5 penalty point.
These classes have very strict criteria - you are expected to canter on the right lead at all times (obviously:D), there are 4 related distances which need to be ridden in balance and with the correct amount of strides, there is 1 combination with the same stipulation.
You are penalised for knock downs (1 point each), for being left behind or in front of the horse and there is a collective mark for general impression.
Once you have your 4 rounds below 3.5 pp (in one season), that is yours for life and you can compete at regional level up to 1.30m or national at 1.20m
to compete higher you need a certain number of clear rounds at 1.20-1.30 at regional level or 1.20 style judged rounds below 3.5pp at national level. It is called licence II and entitles you to progress to 1.30 and 1.40 classes at national level. This licence has to be maintained/renewed every 2 years.
To compete 1.50 or above you need licence I and this can be obtained with 4 clear rounds at 1.40, this also needs to be maintained.
I think it's a good balance of competitive jumping and safety precautions.
 
martlin said:
You might be interested (or might not, but I'll tell you anyway) in the system that works in my home country.
There is something akin to grading, only the other way round, so:
anybody can jump up to 1m classes at which point the style/technique judged classes start. In order to compete at 1.10, you need to jump 4(I think) of 1m style classes with a score below 3.5 penalty point.
These classes have very strict criteria - you are expected to canter on the right lead at all times (obviously:D), there are 4 related distances which need to be ridden in balance and with the correct amount of strides, there is 1 combination with the same stipulation.
You are penalised for knock downs (1 point each), for being left behind or in front of the horse and there is a collective mark for general impression.
Once you have your 4 rounds below 3.5 pp (in one season), that is yours for life and you can compete at regional level up to 1.30m or national at 1.20m
to compete higher you need a certain number of clear rounds at 1.20-1.30 at regional level or 1.20 style judged rounds below 3.5pp at national level. It is called licence II and entitles you to progress to 1.30 and 1.40 classes at national level. This licence has to be maintained/renewed every 2 years.
To compete 1.50 or above you need licence I and this can be obtained with 4 clear rounds at 1.40, this also needs to be maintained.
I think it's a good balance of competitive jumping and safety precautions.
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I think this is a very good idea! Which country is this run in? I don't think this its taking equitation too far but definatly, I hope, prevents bad riding.

Wouldn't you be gutted though if you were really close to getting all four style classes but had a 'sticky' moment! :p
 
That sounds like a really good system Martlin and i think we do need something like that in this country! It would teach kids about have the ponys in balance and being with the pony the way round, whereas a klot of children i see on ponys, even at the higher levels i see children just kicking kicking kicking to faster and faster which ultimately unbalances the pony.

I do agree with the OP that children do need educating on how they are riding effects the pony. But there are some fabulous little riders out there and tbh i give credit to all the little jockeys that go round these tracks, i certainly wouldnt do it on a 16.2 let alone a 12.2!
 
Kokopelli said:
I think this is a very good idea! Which country is this run in? I don't think this its taking equitation too far but definatly, I hope, prevents bad riding.

Wouldn't you be gutted though if you were really close to getting all four style classes but had a 'sticky' moment! :p
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LOL, it's in Poland and yes, it is really gutting when you don't make the grade:)
The style courses are not difficult thou, distances are true, there are only 8 fences (9 jumps) and any half decent jockey who is competing at the right height should be able to obtain the relevant licence easily.
Just to add, licence I is not judged on style, I think the system assumes that if you don't ride in a rhythm and good balance over 1.40 (not to mention right lead in canter;)), you won't be able to get through the course anyway:D
 
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