Anyone able to help me with exact aids needed to achieve this?

[Orangina]

There is an exercise on a video on equitopia center that i would like to try and get my daughter to do with her horse but I will need to tell her exactly what aids she needs to apply to achieve it.

The Biomechanics of Engagement (part 2): The Essential Components of Self Carriage - Equitopia Center

www.equitopiacenter.com

Hopefully the link works and it is the point at 15 minutes 30 seconds. If anyone can help with exact aids including where each leg should be and relative pressure of each leg, hands including relative pressure, height of hands, how forward they should be etc that would be so helpful.

Thanks!

 

[sbloom]

Only had a quick look but will mention the fundamentals - every horse is different and has been trained to different leg, and to an extent, hand aids. Giving "formulae" for aiding neglects each horses individual balance issues etc and can lead us down the wrong path.

Does she work with an instructor? What are the issues you're trying to correct?

 

[Orangina]

Only had a quick look but will mention the fundamentals - every horse is different and has been trained to different leg, and to an extent, hand aids. Giving "formulae" for aiding neglects each horses individual balance issues etc and can lead us down the wrong path.

Does she work with an instructor? What are the issues you're trying to correct?

She does work with an instructor but just wanted to do this exercise before her next lesson as I really enjoyed the concept of the whole video and think it looked beneficial for any horse to balance themselves (as the first of a series of progressive exercises)
I know each horse will have individual aids and she is capable of tailoring for her horde but a starting point is useful to base from

 

[TheMule]

Shoulder out?
Just like shoulder in, but on the wrong rein!

So for right shoulder out you need to be off the track by 1-2m, establish slight outside bend, contact on the left rein, softer on the right rein, turn your hips and shoulders to the outside, weight softly staying on the left seat bone.

 

[Orangina]

Shoulder out?
Just like shoulder in, but on the wrong rein!

So for right shoulder out you need to be off the track by 1-2m, establish slight outside bend, contact on the left rein, softer on the right rein, turn your hips and shoulders to the outside, weight softly staying on the left seat bone.

Thanks.
Yes I deliberately didn't use any specific terms because I wasn't sure if it was shoulder out or haunches in because they start with the horse totally on the track.

 

[coblets]

Shoulder out?
Just like shoulder in, but on the wrong rein!

So for right shoulder out you need to be off the track by 1-2m, establish slight outside bend, contact on the left rein, softer on the right rein, turn your hips and shoulders to the outside, weight softly staying on the left seat bone.

Outside leg behind the girth, inside leg just in front of it?

 

[TheMule]

Outside leg behind the girth, inside leg just in front of it?

Yes, circle aids really- I dont use much leg, and the inside leg is the more important one.

 

[sbloom]

I think it's leg yield head to wall, but I only looked quickly. I would be looking to weight aids much more than leg and hand, weight very slightly to the outside as that is the direction of travel.

 

[Orangina]

I think it's leg yield head to wall, but I only looked quickly. I would be looking to weight aids much more than leg and hand, weight very slightly to the outside as that is the direction of travel.

Thank you!

 

[sbloom]

Thank you!

If it is leg yield (all 4 legs moving sideways, away from the direction of bend which should be very marginal, more straight than bent) then it's very different to shoulder in. Moving between them, understanding which is mobilising, which is stabilising and strengthening, and the feel you want from each, is key. I think it's hard to really develop that feel for balance. I work with customers without any lateral work at all, just a little slow walk, stabilising from the seat, from engaging the body correctly, lightening the contact, and it's possible to transform things with just this, though for sure lateral work is part of the answer.

 

[TheMule]

I think it's leg yield head to wall, but I only looked quickly. I would be looking to weight aids much more than leg and hand, weight very slightly to the outside as that is the direction of travel.

She says it's shoulders out and it certainly looks that way to me

 

[ycbm]

I think it's leg yield head to wall, but I only looked quickly. I would be looking to weight aids much more than leg and hand, weight very slightly to the outside as that is the direction of travel.

I think it's a very confused and confusing piece of video and it's not a good example of what she's trying to explain. She calls it shoulder out but the horse is crossing the hind legs so I agree at times it's more leg yield.
.

 

[Orangina]

I think it's a very confused and confusing piece of video and it's not a good example of what she's trying to explain. She calls it shoulder out but the horse is crossing the hind legs so I agree at times it's more leg yield.
.

Thanks, do you think the horse and rider do what she was intending for them to do and she has just used the wrong words because of language barrier or do you think she used the correct words but it wasn't performed correctly? Basically it is to try and get the horse to weight both sides of its body evenly once you go straight again. (Just in case you haven't watched the reasoning behind the exercise as I realise video is long)

 

[ycbm]

This is why it's confusing. I think she meant shoulders out but the rider only got leg yield at first, but the leg yield still clearly produced a result. I don't think it's at all a good example of a training video. I would prefer to see an accomplished rider used in training demos that others are trying to learn from.

Either move can be helpful, and as SB says you need to judge the horse under you and possibly play around with lateral moves to see what works.

 

[Orangina]

This is why it's confusing. I think she meant shoulders out but the rider only got leg yield at first, but the leg yield still clearly produced a result. I don't think it's at all a good example of a training video. I would prefer to see an accomplished rider used in training demos that others are trying to learn from.

Either move can be helpful, and as SB says you need to judge the horse under you and possibly play around with lateral moves to see what works.

Thank you, this is helpful. It is a shame the exercise hasn't been shown properly as I liked the theory behind the video. It does explain why it totally confused me though!

 

[sbloom]

I think Equitopia has some brilliant stuff on it, but the short bit of this I watched seems unhelpful. I personally struggled for years with watching and feeling for those diagonal connections, the hind limb to the opposite forelimb and could never fully utilise it. The game changer for me was using the "lens" of ribcage rotation - any horse that is unable to use its ribcage equally in both directions (ie rotate down to the inside in order to turn, as they have very little bend in the spine itself) will load one shoulder more than the other, though which one can vary. Working on slow, stabilising work, relieving the psoas with good saddle fit, helping the rider to stabilise from their pelvis upwards, and downwards, and to help the ribcage de-rotate underneath the rider, really helps the horse's balance and straightness and doesn't need lateral work in and of itself. Once the horse is better able to brake behind (the very slow walk helps this) then they are also better able to de-rotate, and they can instantly become lighter and straighter.

Have a look at the FB group 7 Secrets of Self Carriage which is rooted in this approach but also touches on help for the rider.

In the example video an incorrectly performed shoulder in can really load that outside (in this instance left) shoulder even more, so playing with lateral work without the requisite feel and understanding of what you're trying to achieve can be counter productive. Just my take, and what I see in my work (saddle fitter focusing on biomechanics of horse and rider).

 

[Orangina]

I think Equitopia has some brilliant stuff on it, but the short bit of this I watched seems unhelpful. I personally struggled for years with watching and feeling for those diagonal connections, the hind limb to the opposite forelimb and could never fully utilise it. The game changer for me was using the "lens" of ribcage rotation - any horse that is unable to use its ribcage equally in both directions (ie rotate down to the inside in order to turn, as they have very little bend in the spine itself) will load one shoulder more than the other, though which one can vary. Working on slow, stabilising work, relieving the psoas with good saddle fit, helping the rider to stabilise from their pelvis upwards, and downwards, and to help the ribcage de-rotate underneath the rider, really helps the horse's balance and straightness and doesn't need lateral work in and of itself. Once the horse is better able to brake behind (the very slow walk helps this) then they are also better able to de-rotate, and they can instantly become lighter and straighter.

Have a look at the FB group 7 Secrets of Self Carriage which is rooted in this approach but also touches on help for the rider.

In the example video an incorrectly performed shoulder in can really load that outside (in this instance left) shoulder even more, so playing with lateral work without the requisite feel and understanding of what you're trying to achieve can be counter productive. Just my take, and what I see in my work (saddle fitter focusing on biomechanics of horse and rider).

Thank you, I am already a member of that group and do a lot of in hand work with the horse but hadn't spotted the ridden exercises so will take a look.

 

[sbloom]

Thank you, I am already a member of that group and do a lot of in hand work with the horse but hadn't spotted the ridden exercises so will take a look.

I'm not sure there are ridden in that one but it starts the frame of reference I was talking about, the understanding of rotation etc. The paid courses are excellent too, with Encompass Equine Solutions and Maria Hallring offering the training on the horse side, and Dave Sanders on the rider side.