Anyone any experience of this - in a panic- legal?

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Beetle

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Before I rush off in a complete panic to Citizens Advice or take expensive legal advice, please could anyone give me any guidance legal or otherwise or any examples they might have of similar experiences and any rights we might have - I'll try and keep it brief!

We have owned our 20 acre farm for 7 years. 40m away from us on the other side of a B road was a rather lovely but ancient Convent/Nursing home. Developers got permission to turn it into a huge retirement village and started a massive build. Currently 300 assisted flats, sports facilities, restaurant etc. With goodness knows how many more to come. They have already been building for two years.

We knew this was happening when we bought and didn't have a particular problem but we have just had a visit from the sewage/waste water company, apparently these complete idiots have just realised that the amount of waste generated by the development will not fit through the tiny 6in pipe currently taking all the waste away. This pipe runs directly across our land, carpark, concrete yard, sandschool and two fields!!! They have already sent in surveyors to do a feasibility study to open dig (not mole) right across our land to lay a much bigger pipe. It's all happening rather quickly, the first we knew was a rather vague letter from the Water Co last week. Suddenly they are on our land with their surveying kit staking it out!

There is an alternative route along the B road but they are reluctant to go this route, I imagine it will be more expensive and disrupt traffic etc. Better to decimate one private landowner.

Do we have any rights? My husband runs a business which will be severely disrupted and the equine facilities were put in by us so are only new. We have 7 horses and the dig will cut our stables off from everything else, the pipe line is only be about 10 feet from the barn door under concrete.

Can we refuse? I'm guessing we can't so what sort of reinstatement are we entitled to and is there likely to be any extra compensation - I doubt it! How difficult can we make it for them?

Any input would be gratefully received, or by PM if you prefer.

Beetle
 
Im not a legal person but I would think it would be up to them to get your permission and minimise disruption / compensate for any loss etc.. I would ask your sollicitor about wayleaves and your rights.. then I would try to sort it out with the developers. meet them try the friendly approach but make sure you know the legalties first, good luck...
 
I would think you'd be entitled to compensation if they did go ahead so you def need to find out what your rights are from your solicitor
 
I am not clear of the legalties but something similar happened to a friend and she whilst she received quite a hefty chunk of compensation and her yard was rebuilt as was the sand school re did the fencing and fields. However she had to move a lot of horses and the work went on for a while and and over the agreed time.
 
Get onto them and ask for a site meeting, they should pay for a legally binding easement, and for disruption, etc. etc. They should also pick up all your legal fees, and you have the right to appoint a Land Agent and they will reimburse him/her.

In the meantime write to them and say that work shall not proceed until all relevant consents are in place to your satisfaction.

Take dated photographs of all the places that they may possibly work so there are no arguments later concerning the condition of land, fences, driveways, tracks etc.
 
Get a solicitor quickly!! Arguably there is an easement there for the size of the current pipe but not for anything bigger and certainly not for what they are suggesting.

If they want to negotiate an easement for the work/pipe they are proposing then they may be entitled to do that but only at its true market worth and reflect compensation for the disruption etc. So you can refuse completely and they would need to go to a Lands Tribunal to get the current easement varied. Whether they can do that will be up to the tribunal. If the easement (current small) is in your deeds that would make it more likely tribunal would agree it (at a cost to them), if its not in your deeds then you might well be able to insist on the alternative route. Either way if you lose you will not be liable for costs I dont think (tho check this) in the LT

On the positive side you could get upgraded facilities if you negotiate well.

It needs to be a specialist solicitor who specialises in boundaries and easements. Google 'easements' 'rights of way' 'solicitors' and you should get some (Law soc site is not that great for this, google better).

I would not get involved in discussions over what you want before you have had an initial meeting with solicitor, so that you dont prejudice later agreements. A decent specialist solicitor could probably value the easement. And advise on whether to say NO if you want to or whether to negotiate.

Is the easement in your deeds?
 
We had a similar situation, however, in the end they changed their route. They wanted to lay a pipe through our field. They were offering compensation, however, when they realised the pipe would go through our stables and the cost of livery for 3 horses for 6 months the route changed. I would work out a price you would want to be paid. Livery, rebuilding of stables, school, fencing etc and it might work out ok.
 
Hi I would recommend you get a land agent to act on your behalf. You wont have to pay, they will claim their fees from the utilities company. Utd Utilities wanted to lay a pipe across mine but the agents were great - they ended up going under rather than over, with minimal disruption to my land - I do think though that unless you get people like that behind you, they will walk all over you ! You can also get compensation for any disruption or inconvenience.
Good luck I hope you get it sorted.
 
Also take into account any future disruption - if the pipe gets damaged in some way, do you want raw sewage flooding your fields? Who will be responsible for repairs, maintenance and cleaning operations?
 
<font color="blue">Suddenly they are on our land with their surveying kit staking it out! </font>

They are on rather shaky ground here, surely
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I'm shocked to think anyone can come onto your land without permission and start putting posts and strings in!

Site meeting and solicitor - pronto, I'd say. Call a halt to any further moves until legal advice is sought.

How very dare they!
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Good luck with it.
 
We have a water mains that runs through our field and it burst. When the water board turned up they said they would have to replace the whole pipe with a modern one and that we would have to let them dig up the field.

We spoke to a friend who works for the electricity board and he said that all utility companies have the right to carry out certain works but of course this was a pre-existing pipe that was being upgraded - so might not be relevant to your case.

But one thing to look out for - they made a right mess, as they dug up all the underlying clay and of course left that on top when they filled in the ditch so that part of the field is always boggy and rutted now. So make sure they put the topsoil to one side if they go ahead otherwise it will leave a muddy mess!
 
My in laws have a large farmhouse near to the M5 in Somerset. They have one large field behind their house and shared a 4 acre field with her sister directly behind that field. Summerfield Developments wanted to buy the latter field in order to build more business units to extend the business park that they are already building/have built on a neighbouring (ken Coles) farmer's land.

In order to build the units, they had to make sure there was a large mound/bank built between my in laws and the business park, with 2 lines of trees to obscure any view of the buildings. This meant that my in laws acquired a further half an acre of land which they had no choice about but were forced to pay 20k for it, despite getting her field at a knock down price!

Anyway, they had to do some digging and laying on HER land, in her garden and on her drive. They have had to pay to get the damage put right and have to make sure they maintain the lines of trees. There is no way on earth they should/would have been allowed to dig up her ground and then expect her to pay to rectify it, when it's not her that's doing the works!

So, because you will not be benefiting from this building and it is nothing to do with you, they need to rectify any damage caused by them coming across your land, which will include levelling fields and fixing your sand school. Do not rest until you get what is due to you. I think you do have to allow them onto your land, but you do not have to pay to rectify the damage - they do!

Our builder wrecked our neighbour's garden (which was unnecessary). It was our obligation to pay for that to be put right. This is no different. You also want compensation for the upheaval and the lack of communication, as well as a clear plan of how the pipe will be maintained in years to come and what monies will be due to you in lieu of you allowing them on your land.
 
Oh and by the way. A few years ago, the water board had to dig up our (very large) driveway because there was a leak in the close which had been pinpointed to that particular pipe. When they finished they had to lay a new drive... this is common practice for them. What you have to be careful with is that they do a good job of it - our driveway slabs started to crack/come up, so we got them out and they had to sort it out!
 
Gosh, thank you all so much. All your replies have made really useful reading, I've already shown them to my husband - at long last he believes some of the time I spend on HHO is well spent!

A very good friend of our is a local land agent, I'm going to get straight on to him tonight, having checked his website they appear to have a Compensation dept. and will check out our deeds in morning.

We are on solid clay so the mess could be horrrendous, have noted the point about top soil.

The surveyors (a private co. appointed by the water co.) just turned up on Friday with their theodalites (sp?) verbally asked permission to go on our land to survey it. My husband was v busy at the time so agreed without thinking. When I went to turn the horses out later I found they had left several big stakes in the fields sticking up about a 1ft sprayed red - no way could I pull them out they were too far in - and had sprayed paint all over the grass. I was not amused as they were very dangerous for the horses and I had to get help to sort.

We could probably just about live with the disruption if they reinstate us with better than we have now. (Hattikins is lusting after a 60 x 30 school as opposed to our current 20x40 but I've told her to dream on!)

Thank you all again. Will keep you posted and if anyone has any more experiences, it would be very useful to hear about them.
 
Someone I know of got a second school put in by a water company whilst they moved or upgraded or some such one of the pipe which ran under her current school - she did not have to exist for any time without her facilities so Hattikins may not be so far off...wonder if you could get a second one put in adjacent to the first then take the fence down.....?
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Utility companies can access any land without permission. If this is your local water authority, you cannot stop them. If it is the developers then they will probably need permission. Public Utilities will be expected to pay reasonable compesnation for inconvenience/disruption/loss of income
 
I agree with Moke. A relative was in the position of having additional water pipes laid across his land to provide water to a new housing development. He did get a few thousand in compensation but cannot dig up the land within I think 30 metres either side of the new pipes.

From memory English law is similar to the Northern Irish law on this and you are unlikely to be able to stop it if the Water Authority wants to do it. See page 18 of the attached.

http://www.niwater.com/siteFiles/resources/pdf/COP/COP5_Sewerages_v11.pdf

If you have a lot of time and feel bored:

http://www.prres.net/Papers/Hutchison_The_Valuation_of_Wayleaves.pdf
 
We have a pipe running across our field from the nearby housing estate. We got some compensation and they also paid for the reinstatement of the field.
 
I would also contact the planning department about this. If the developement was give npermission with insufficient drainage that suggests that some thing was not right there. Re the utility companies having access rights, presumably that is for repairs. These rights were given when the companies were state owned, where do they stand now they are privately owned?
 
I know where you mean and I used to work for a water company, so here goes.
The developer would have told the water Co about the development. The Water Co (lets call them SW) then decides whether they have the capability to service the new demand on the current pipes, this is done by computer models. It would therefore be SW's mistake for cutting corners and not investing in upgrading the pipes before the development was finished.
SW do have the right to maintain pipes on your land, but this appears to be shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted (excuse the pun). There cannot be much if any blame attributed to the developer as they are only responsible for the pipes on their site until the boundary, not the main network. I would pop across the road &amp; ask them how big their pipe is at their boundary. If it is 6', then there is no point in SW suddenly upgrading, however if it's 8' or bigger then SW really should have acted earlier.
If it's purely SW's issue, bleed them dry (so to speak) and this ought to be quite easy as they will be desparate to avoid sewage backing up to the development &amp; flooding it with sh*t.
 
QR
I haven;
't read all the replies, but when you are working out your costs, don't forget to add in any 'loss of earnings' from your OH's business (and yours?) in addition to the costs to replace things. Would it mean that people who livery with you are inconvenienced in any way ie access to your site, might be worth asking them to put some of their concerns in writing to you so you can show it to the contractors and they are aware that it's not just you that's being inconvenienced. Sorry if this has already covered.
 
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