anyone else ever had problems with colic after worming ? (equest pramox)

[sugar mouse]

Thanks for your kind thoughts hch4971.

On the subject of in-foal mares, I was warned off using anything as strong as Equest or Pramox in the run up to foaling and many wormers warn in the small print that they are unsuitable. I usually worm with Panacur granules about two weeks before due date and have never had a problem. It doesn't need to be broad spectrum as I thought we only needed to target the worms likely to be passed through mother's milk? Not sure if this advice is out of date now as it was a long time ago that I first asked the question. It has always worked for me, so far....

 

[sugar mouse]

Yes, I know you're right Brighteyes. The trouble is at such a harrowing time a PM is not uppermost in one's mind. Also with it happening on a Saturday morning, the timimg was not best to follow that route. It was bad enough having to wait 24 hours for removal of the body and jolly lucky it wasn't 48!

 

[paddy555]

As some have mentioned, Panacur Guard can be used as an alternative treatment for encysted redworm. However, be careful as there is much worm resistance to this drug nowadays. Tried and trusted it may be but if there are resistant worms it will not treat them and you may as well pour it down the sink.

You need to know it is effective for your horse, not like the horse I posted about on Westgate Facebook page. If the owner had not been using worm counts then she would not have known that her horse still had a heavy worm burden.

SM and Barnaby, I have had to have several horses PTS. It is a devastating experience and never gets any better. Having a PM would be the last thing on my mind. Like you I couldn't get my head around my horse being mutilated however much I wanted answers.
I am so sorry for both of you. There is no way forward except time and lots of it. Take care of yourselves.

I must be the only person not on facebook so please can someone give me a link to the Westgate FB page?

Borderreiver, If you are worming for encysted and these do not show up in a worm count how do you know if you have any? If you don't know how do you know what to worm with which I gather is either PG or equest.

Is it simply a case of worming with one or the other and then counting later?
If the encysted are resistent to PG then presumably they stay encysted and will not show up in a later worm count?

So many questions but would be grateful (and I am sure I'm not the only one) for any input.

As far as not worming in the old days etc then I just think of my MIL whose mare died of redworm in the days before worming.

 

[Borderreiver]

When using a worm count based programme, a full worming plan or treating a newcomer you need to use a wormer to target encysted redworm. Programmes should have a winter dose specifically for this possibility unless you have several years of good worm count results and the keep is low risk.

Encysted redworm are not a different type of worm to the redworm (strongyle) eggs found in a worm count. They are simply a normal stage of a redworm's life. They burrow into the gut wall and do not lay eggs, hence why they won't show in a worm count.

So your worm counts through the year will help you to know if there are likely to be any redworm to become encysted. If counts are always clear but you haven't had your horse long then they are a possibility. A horse with a poor background and a wormy past is very likely to carry some.

Try to avoid your horse taking them into the winter by dosing about end of Nov/ into December.

But for normal well looked after horses with good worm count results, don't worry too much. We recommend the winter dose as a precaution, but if you didn't do it and there were a few worms hibernating there, they would go on and mature to lay eggs at a future point and the worm count would go up. Then you would worm your horse of course. As long as there are not thousands doing a mass exit then there will not be a problem.

 

[sugar mouse]

To Border Reiver,

Thanks for that very clear explanation of all our questions. I feel a lot happier knowing why I am choosing to worm with a certain product and the optimum time of year to administer.

 

[paddy555]

Border Reiver,
thank you for your last post which helped a lot.

 

[JanetGeorge]

On the subject of in-foal mares, I was warned off using anything as strong as Equest or Pramox in the run up to foaling and many wormers warn in the small print that they are unsuitable. I usually worm with Panacur granules about two weeks before due date and have never had a problem. It doesn't need to be broad spectrum as I thought we only needed to target the worms likely to be passed through mother's milk?

I won't use anything in the immediate run-up to foaling!! The mares are wormed 8-10 weeks before foaling - either with Equest if early foalers - or with Equamax if late foalers. Then they are wormed IMMEDIATELY after foaling with Equest - to make sure they are 'clean' before going onto rested pasture with their foals - and to clear them of intestinal threadworm - which is passed on to foal in the milk.

Equest and Equest Pramox aren't recommended for mares in THIS country because our licensing laws are very tough and it's just too expensive for manufacturers to comply with the extra tests that would have to be done. But they are both recommended - and widely used by breeders in other parts of the world. Obviously - though - you're 'at your own risk' if you use them here for broodmares.

 

[brannyman]

I have also had problem with Equest Pramox, didn't realise until reading on this site but my welsh cob seemed off colour when ridden 2 days after wormer, she sweated up very quickly which is unusual so stopped riding her and have given her couple more days off, last night she still seemed warmer than normal, although eating ok. Can't help but think is was the wormer, good job I didn't give it to my 26 year old Arab, he was on separate paddock recovering from what the vet suspected was acorn poisening!! Has anyone else experienced acorn poisening?

 

[barnaby bear]

aww....hope your horse is ok....she seems passed the dangerous time now i reckon....worth still keeping an eye on her though- as i am sure you are already doing


yes acorn poisioning ....there are already some threads on that .....little arab i know died of it - very sad !

they are definately poisionous if eaten in larger quantities..... my oliver used to love them - had to section his field off and collect them every year


just going back to the equest pramox wormer- i have written to the editor of horse and hound magazine asking them if they would consider publishing an article on the dangers of using this wormer on the back of my experiences and other peoples as shared in this and other threads.....be good if we could get it published in the magazines....

so far i have heard nothing back though sadly

 

[brannyman]

Thank you so much for your quick reply. I am new to this site and still finding my way around, at present trying to remove foal from Brannyman as he is far from being a foal at 27!!

Yes I am still keeping an eye on my mare and will look for the link on acorn poisening, my vet seemed to think it was more common in cattle.

Writing to horse and hound about the wormer is a great idea, I will do the same myself, maybe if a few others do to we may get a response, I would hate to think people are worming their horses without being aware of the possible problems, I seem to have been lucky on this occasion but I won't be taking the chance again.

 

[paddy555]

Thank you so much for your quick reply. I am new to this site and still finding my way around, at present trying to remove foal from Brannyman as he is far from being a foal at 27!!

Yes I am still keeping an eye on my mare and will look for the link on acorn poisening, my vet seemed to think it was more common in cattle.

Writing to horse and hound about the wormer is a great idea, I will do the same myself, maybe if a few others do to we may get a response, I would hate to think people are worming their horses without being aware of the possible problems, I seem to have been lucky on this occasion but I won't be taking the chance again.

there is a thread on here somewhere re acorns but this very sad thread is on another forum. Please read it if you can, they are a killer.

http://ihdg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=gh11&action=display&thread=118105

 

[guisbrogal]

I am terrified of this wormer! Actually I am wary of any worer now, but in particular Promax.

I wormed my mare with it last year and got a tiny bit on my lip when she threw her head in the air. I was soooo poorly! I ended up in hospital on a drip. Unfortunately the hospital were not certain it was the wormer as I had ingested so little of it and so put it down to gatric flu. I am 100% certain it was the wormer as I took ill within a couple of hours of getting it in my mouth. I lost 6lbs in weight! My horse was also a bit 'off' for a day or two. No particular symptoms just not herself.
I won't use it again.

I am sure any wormer could do the same if you swallowed (or in my case wiped it near your mouth) but Promax is apparently a much more potent womer.

I am so sorry that you lost your horse and yes there is a chance it was coincidence. We all take the risk of our horses colicking every time we worm them though. We are only doing what we feel is in their best interest so please don't beat yourself up. Your horse knew you loved him and would never deliberatly do anything to endager him. Just a dreadful tragedy!

Huge hugs
xx

 

[runmypretties]

I thought I would add some info here. I purchased a horse at the beginning fo the year and her worming history was a tad dubious so I decided to worm with Equest Pramox. I contacted Pfizer as I was worried that if she did have worms, I could cause a colic by killing them all off at once. Pfizer told me that the product is designed to work over a few week period to kill worms off at a steady rate, therefore reducing the risk of impaction colic. Also that unless the horse has a massive worm burden you would be unlikely to see dead worms in faeces as the slow working of the product allows the worms to be broken down by the digestive system.

I don't doubt that some horses are more sensitive than others to the chemicals and possibly have compromised gut function to begin with due to incorrect diet/illness etc but it must be said (as if anyone reads this feed they will be scared witless by all the negative stories!) that thousands of horses are wormed with these products every year with little or no ill effect and it is a matter of speaking to your vet and working out what will suit you best.

My own horse has been wormed regularly with Equest with no ill effect but last week suffered mild, gassy colic last week and I am now in the quandry of whether to worm her as normal in case it was due to parasites or to put it off or even try another product which I don't know whether she may be sensitive to......

At the end of the day, you can only do what you think is right with the advice you are given and you can do no more. But pfizer do seem to be very forthcoming with help on their products and there is a process for reporting ill effects, lets be honest, there is no point them producing a product that they know is harming animals because they won't make any money!

 

[FrankieDurleigh]

hi....new to the forums and to be honest i just wanted to see if anyone else has ever had any problems with colic after worming their horse?

had to have my beloved arab oliver put to sleep yesterday - after owning him for over 20 years. i am beyond devastated as you can imagine .

terrible colic and wasnt responding to hours of treatment from a vet.

the thing that is grating on my heart is that i wormed him exactly 48 hrs before the onset of colic with equest pramox wormer.

i dont do him vey often (maybe once a year) as he has a field on his own with horses next door and i daily collect the droppings. so he's not a horse that is at massive risk from worms - or worm burden



he's never had colic in his life and i worm him and suddenly within 48 hrs he dies from it .



anyone else ever had any problems with colic after worming ?

thanks guys

I know this was so long ago, but i had the exact same thing happen to me!

Within 24 hours of worming my TB with noropraz he was showing signs of colic, (i'm very wary and watch like a hawk as my last horse died of colic) luckily i acted fast and caught and treated it early thanks to the speediness of the vet.
But now i'm very worried and petrified to worm him again

I'm so sorry for your loss as I know exactly how you must have been feeling.
I still blame myself but unfortunately i can't turn back the clock

 

[leggs]

i'm sorry for your loss.
Worming Always makes me edgy as well, but not worming is also not an option.

In this case of poor Oliver I don't think the worming was connected to the colic but....I was surprised by the Pfizer mail not asking for a batch number. if they are serious about doing an investigation then they should have asked you for the batch number! When they get complaints like this the lawyers and their QA/QC system get involved immediately-in human cases they will get on a plane with their lawyers and fly to Africa in the middle of the night if necessary. They can trace every vet the batch was sold to. A batch can be contaminated with something because of mistakes in the productionprocess, however unlikely, it has happened before!
Don't throw away the package.

I worked for them 2 years ago (construction project building a new processing plant in their faccilities in Belgium. I luckily escaped after 6months got another offer and I jumped- I really really hated the pharma culture (and that is saying something as I usually work on petrochemical plants nothing is as ruthless as the oil industry, but at least they are honest about it: they are in this to make money)

I would also ask my vet not to give info over telephone, let them communicate in writing and have your vet send you a copy.

Again, chances are very slim that this had anything to do with the Equest, but to be sure I would do what I wrote in this post.

take care!

 

[SO1]

I know this threat is old and am sorry for those who have lost their horses due to colic.

However when I read the leaflet which came with Equitape which is the tapewormer that is part of Pramox it does say on there that there is a colic risk if the horse has a bad tapeworm infestation. There is no cheap way of knowing if your horse has a tapeworm burden and as tapeworm is carried by mites which can also live in hay even if you keep your horses on their own, never take them anywhere and poo pick the fields they could still get it from hay so you would need to worm them correctly for tapeworm including not under dosing.

Additionally untreated tapeworm can be a cause of colic so don't think by not worming for tapeworm you will prevent the risk of colic.

 

[Borderreiver]

There is now a way of testing for tapeworm, use the Equisal saliva test. This is a godsend for those with horses they are worried about.