Anyone else smell a scam... ? Long story

PapaFrita

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So... My friend J is looking for a horse to SJ upto 1.10m. He's tried Antifaz to have on loan, but A is too hot for him; they just don't get along. J doesn't try particularly hard to find a horse, even though a few people have offered to try get him something and mention a few that sound very promising. He's got his heart set on a TB (he likes PF) and he hasn't got a massive budget.
SO, one of the grooms says his FIL has got a nice 5YO off the track. Mind, this is not off the track track, this is a backstreet racehorse that has been raced in semi (possibly not at all)-legal races. First thing I don't like about the horse is the price; AR$8000, which is about £1300. Way too much by UK standards and astronomical by Argentine standards.
J goes to see the horse and falls in love. I agree to go and see the horse as well and I don't fall in love. I especially don't fall in love with the fact that the horse hasn't had a square meal in weeks.
Apart from the price I can't really see anything hideously wrong with the ned and J just loves him. He's very sweet, has a nice, if a touch nervy temperament. So J arranges a trial period of 1mth to decide if the horse is suitable and if, in fact, it can jump.
Then the messing around starts; owner hints he's got a buyer for the horse and wants paying up front (having agreed to installments) I tell J to tell him to keep his horse (using rather stronger language); If he can find a buyer for 8k he should sell straight away before the mug can change his mind. J remains unconvinced that he's being lied to.
THEN surprise surprise owner decides that J is a good bloke, and agrees to send him the horse on trial.
Horse arrives looking like this; even skinnier than when I saw him and this is a VERY flattering photo. You can see every bone in his back. He also has verrry small feet and was terribly footsore.

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J duly worms horse and buys a vitamin supplement, and gets the horse shod. Horse gets lots and lots of food (forage, before someone asks) Can you see where this is going?
A couple of weeks later, horse is looking better, has been shod and lunged lightly. He's been in the jumping lane and looks promising over about 2'9"
J gets on him and walks around a bit. Horse sweats up MASSIVELY and is very reluctant to take up a contact.
I check his mouth; Yep, nasty pointy molars. I also tell J that if he really really has his heart set on this horse, he MUST get it thoroughly vetted and even better, legs x-rayed.
J continues to lunge him, and gets on him a second time when I wasn't around and grooms were elsewhere.
He has NO recollection of what happened. Horse and J wandered separately back to the stables. To cut a very long story a tiny bit shorter J has an exposed fracture of his second metacarpal and a nasty concussion (yes, he was wearing a hat) and spent 3 days in hospitalr. He won't be riding for a couple of months.
At this juncture, I would rapidly send horse back to owner, but J remains unconvinced. J doesn't even want to believe that horse might've cracked him one on the head with his neck (seems the most likely scenario) and says he just fainted and fell off... *sigh* Yes, because THAT's what gave him concussion and broke his hand. And nooo, he won't be any livelier when he's put on a few pounds.
To be fair, the horse has shocking teeth and who knows how many other issues and is probably not malicious. I DO however think he's too hot for J, especially since he won't be able to ride every day, and come March I won't be there to help him out.
I tell him, in as nice a way as possible that he should look around for something else... what has he got to lose, right?
He can get lots of other green horses that haven't done anything and are cheaper than this one, but I feel like I'm banging my head against a concussed wall....
Ideas/suggestions? I think I might be lining up a few horses for him to see myself...
 
Glad your friend is ok, could have been so much worse! Could your friend afford to send the horse to a pro for schooling whilst he can't ride? Horse will either come good or pro may be able to sell it on?
 
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Poor, poor horse.
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It does sound like he is too much for your friend to take on though. Sadly there's nothing you can really do to change his mind.

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I feel very sorry for the horse, as he's very sweet, but there is no way he's worth 8K and may never be right for J. He's setting himself up for an awful lot of accidents and expense
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Glad your friend is ok, could have been so much worse! Could your friend afford to send the horse to a pro for schooling whilst he can't ride? Horse will either come good or pro may be able to sell it on?

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If he could afford a pro schooler, he'd be able to afford a horse that's already jumping and is less likely to kill him. At the price they're asking, Ludger Beerbaum would have to school him on in order to make any kind of profit. He might indeed come good, but I don't think he's worth the risk at that kind of money.
 
Oh dear, they saw J coming didn't they? Perhaps it is a good job he has such a solid head!:p If he wants this creature there will be little that you can do about it. Sounds like he will learn the hard way.......
 
My grandfather always told me "never buy a skinny horse", it's either sick, sorry or mental, not sure if that's PC nowadays and probably not a lot of help !
 
Aw i just wrote a long post but cross posted with you saying he couldn't afford pro help so deleted it.

Shame for them both really, looks like this horse needs some love and time and money putting into it. But it sounds as if it will end in tears really. It could just be the teeth that caused him to explode (which from the sounds of it he did) and chuck your friend off though? Maybe if he's restarted and managed properly he would come right... But it's a huge risk and not one that your friend sounds experienced enough to take.

Don't know what to say really, just hope it doesn't end too badly. Sounds as if you've said all you can to him...
 
Trouble is if no one saw what happened then there's always the possibility that it wasn't the horse's fault ...could your friend if he's determined to have the horse not offer less money ? Maybe now he's got the horse the owner won't want him back ? He looks ok to me, yes, very poor and immature for a 5 year old but then I'm a sucker for a grey tb !
 
I think that they saw J coming, but there is something about him in that photo...

A horse is worth what someone is willing to pay.

All you can do hun is advise and impart your knowledge and experience - if he doesn't listen then you can't do anything about that.
 
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but there is something about him in that photo...


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You know what that something is MrsM.....
Thats the Dizzy one after a dip in bleaching agent!
 
I thought you were going to say he got the horse looking a bit better and the price went up. It's hard to walk away when they are either poor or lookers - or in this case, both! Not a scam, just seen him coming.
 
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but there is something about him in that photo...


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You know what that something is MrsM.....
Thats the Dizzy one after a dip in bleaching agent!

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Lol, that'd be it
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. He has a nice face... I would be very tempted (me and my Dr Green
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).
 
Complete scam but only because hes such an easy target.

They are playing with his heartstrings,and the loan will help him fall for the horse and even if he sends it back they will have an improved horse to sell on at no expense to themselves...
seems like a very unsuitable horse to...

even if the horse didnt do damage in this accident its charactor is bound to change as it perks up and puts on a weight.

As some one above pointed out that old bit of horse knowledge,a very skinny horse is either sick,sad or mental...
Starving a horse is an old fashioned dealers trick to calm down the mental ones...

Id be on the look out for alternative horses for him...send that one home.
 
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I think you should butt out. Meant in the nicest possible way.

If the prospective owner really wants this horse, let him have him. They may turn out amazingly!

Stop being the naysayer, and be there to support him with the horse. He's seen/felt something in the horse he likes, let him get on with it. If he's still prepared to stick with it after such a nasty injury, then fair play to him. As long as he's not going to scrapheap it after a few more times, of course!!
 
Horse looks very attractive to me, even as skinny as it is - I'd have probably been a sucker for it too
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All you can do is be there for him, get teeth etc done and see if anyone can "catch" the horse doing whatever it did to have concussed him the first time around, preferably while its still within trial period.
 
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I thought you were going to say he got the horse looking a bit better and the price went up. It's hard to walk away when they are either poor or lookers - or in this case, both! Not a scam, just seen him coming.

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Well, that's another possibility. Once the horse has been trained up a bit...
The way I see it is that J gets the horse, fattens it up, has it shod, etc, etc, and then the mysterious 'buyer' turns up to justify the totally unreasonable price tag. Imagine 8k but in POUNDS.
 
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Oh dear, they saw J coming didn't they? Perhaps it is a good job he has such a solid head!:p If he wants this creature there will be little that you can do about it. Sounds like he will learn the hard way.......

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I know, I know... *sigh* I can just see it all ending in tears. After all, there is no guarantee the horse will jump, or have the temperament to compete and he really is FAR too expensive to take the risk. If J would at least look at other horses...
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My grandfather always told me "never buy a skinny horse", it's either sick, sorry or mental, not sure if that's PC nowadays and probably not a lot of help !

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Well, I think that if they've not fed him, it's for a reason. The other horses on the yard were NOT skinny, and he was much worse when he arrived on the yard than when I went to see him.
 
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Aw i just wrote a long post but cross posted with you saying he couldn't afford pro help so deleted it.

Shame for them both really, looks like this horse needs some love and time and money putting into it. But it sounds as if it will end in tears really. It could just be the teeth that caused him to explode (which from the sounds of it he did) and chuck your friend off though? Maybe if he's restarted and managed properly he would come right... But it's a huge risk and not one that your friend sounds experienced enough to take.

Don't know what to say really, just hope it doesn't end too badly. Sounds as if you've said all you can to him...

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Yes, it could definitely have been the teeth, or something else. I don't think the horse is genuinely malicious. I don't think J has the experience or time for him, and he certainly hasn't got that kind of cash to spend on a complete unknown quantity. I'm all for giving a horse a chance, but 8k Arg Pesos is, in spending terms, about £5k. Would YOU spend that kind of cash on an unproven ex-racer?
 
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Trouble is if no one saw what happened then there's always the possibility that it wasn't the horse's fault ...could your friend if he's determined to have the horse not offer less money ? Maybe now he's got the horse the owner won't want him back ? He looks ok to me, yes, very poor and immature for a 5 year old but then I'm a sucker for a grey tb !

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I'm sure anything the horse did was out of pain/discomfort and not malice. HOWEVER, I don't think J is the person to sort him out. Yes, I think he should offer a LOT less money, and will encourage him to do so.
 
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I think that they saw J coming, but there is something about him in that photo...

A horse is worth what someone is willing to pay.

All you can do hun is advise and impart your knowledge and experience - if he doesn't listen then you can't do anything about that.

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He's very sweet, but very jumpy. He definitely needs a good home and lots of TLC, but I don't think J is equipped to provide it. I'd help, but I won't be there. He might end up with no money, no SJer, or worse still, badly hurt.
On the other hand, I could be completely wrong and he might have found himself his one in a million horse. I hope this is the case.
 
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Complete scam but only because hes such an easy target.

They are playing with his heartstrings,and the loan will help him fall for the horse and even if he sends it back they will have an improved horse to sell on at no expense to themselves...
seems like a very unsuitable horse to...

even if the horse didnt do damage in this accident its charactor is bound to change as it perks up and puts on a weight.

As some one above pointed out that old bit of horse knowledge,a very skinny horse is either sick,sad or mental...
Starving a horse is an old fashioned dealers trick to calm down the mental ones...

Id be on the look out for alternative horses for him...send that one home.

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Those are exactly the things I'm concerned about
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I think you should butt out. Meant in the nicest possible way.

If the prospective owner really wants this horse, let him have him. They may turn out amazingly!

Stop being the naysayer, and be there to support him with the horse. He's seen/felt something in the horse he likes, let him get on with it. If he's still prepared to stick with it after such a nasty injury, then fair play to him. As long as he's not going to scrapheap it after a few more times, of course!!

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That's the point. I won't BE there to help him out/ take him to hospital. I do truly hope they turn out great. I like the horse; he's very sweet and definitely needs a bit of looking after, but what kind of friend would I be if I didn't tell J what I thought? I really think he could get hurt; he's not got the time OR experience to sort this horse out; he adored Antifaz as well but they never got on...
I just don't want J to get hurt; physically or emotionally but noone will be happier than me if they turn into the next John Whitaker and Milton.
 
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Horse looks very attractive to me, even as skinny as it is - I'd have probably been a sucker for it too
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All you can do is be there for him, get teeth etc done and see if anyone can "catch" the horse doing whatever it did to have concussed him the first time around, preferably while its still within trial period.

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Well, I've advised him to get teeth done, vetting, etc. Who's going to get on the horse though, to 'catch' him doing whatever it was?? I expect it'll be me
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I'm used to hot horses. J isn't. He can just walk PF for me and get her all wound up....
 
Nopes i wouldn't. And no one else will either.

I think if your friend won't be swayed away from him then he should at least get a very thorough vetting done as you say, and then he can go to the owner with the vet cert and say look what's wrong with it, no one will give you what you want but i'll give you XXX amount and that's about as good as you'l ever get. Plus bad reputations mean bad business for dealers... can never understand it.
 
You can't do anything sadly.Adults are free to make their own mistakes, and to take the consequences of course.You could point out to him what some of those consequences could be of course, like dying.After that, walk away.You see the single most unsuitable combinations and the more novice the rider, often the more unsuitable the combination.
 
I think your friend has bought himself a lot of expense as well as whole lot blood, sweat and tears, hope he’s get better soon, but by the sounds of it, I also think the horse needs a lot time and work putting in (a chance basically) before anyone can decide if it’s a nut job..so to speak, thing is your friend wasn’t after a long term project, he wants something to enjoy and jump and there is no way that’s going to happen any time soon with a horse like this and yes he paid way way too much.
A lot race horses look tucked up and some are on the very very slim side but he doesn’t even have any muscle does he, when was his last race?

I think most sensible thing to do is to send the horse back, sounds like reciepe for disaster and he’s just had the first taste, I do hope the horse end up somewhere where he gets a fair chance, otherwise its kinder to have them shot, rather than being sold and passed about to the wrong people etc.

I must admit though, there could be a nice horse there in time and I too would find it hard to send him back, but it will take longer than a month trial to find out that’s the thing, your right it’s a tuffy.

Hope it all works out for J and the horse.
 
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