Anyone feel like giving up? After multiple horses lame

[Cardigan]

It's TBs and has transferred to some crosses. Its a congenital abnormality of C6/7, the two vertebrae at the base of the neck, C7 inside the chest. The tendons can't attach properly and the horse's front end is unstable because of it.

I'm thinking of x raying my TB because I tried to teach him to jump the other day and he was completely unable to sort his legs out in front, especially on landing. I'm curious what might be going on in there!

.

Sharon May Davis has explored the C6 and C7 malformations. Some excellent research from her

 

[gunnergundog]

Did anyone listen to the Sharon May-Davis webinar last night on ECVM? Very interesting/horrifying to see the number of very popular breeds in which this has been identified as prevalent. This was hosted by Centaur Biomechanics and Russell is putting on some other interesting ones.

 

[palo1]

They are sadly very much out of fashion and have been for a few years now. I think the 'halter' scene has done them no favours in terms of image. When I bought my grey arab, people were not keen and told me so, even though I already was on my second anglo-arab (a cross that is now also sadly underrated and harder to come by) so they knew I liked Arabs. Oh well, they liked her once they met her.

Yes, it is a great shame that Arabs and their part-breds are so out of favour. A good old fashioned Arab is way more horse than it looks! They are really, in my opinion the very best hot blood and I very much wish there was more enthusiasm for breeding decent Arabs and part-breds. We are lucky to have bred a lovely PBA (16.3 no less!) and I bought a young part bred 10 years ago. Both are perfect for the kind of riding we do which is really a bit of everything Probably my dream combo would be a Welsh D like my current mare with a decent Arab stallion....

 

[paddy555]

Yes, it is a great shame that Arabs and their part-breds are so out of favour. A good old fashioned Arab is way more horse than it looks! They are really, in my opinion the very best hot blood and I very much wish there was more enthusiasm for breeding decent Arabs and part-breds. We are lucky to have bred a lovely PBA (16.3 no less!) and I bought a young part bred 10 years ago. Both are perfect for the kind of riding we do which is really a bit of everything Probably my dream combo would be a Welsh D like my current mare with a decent Arab stallion....

I got my arab stallion (by General Gold) back in the mid 80's. I went to the stud to choose him. The horses were amazing, real work horses. . He managed without a vet for illness until he was 27 and covered tens of thousands of miles. If we weren't so old and didn't have so many horses I would have another pure bred arab tomorrow.

 

[Northern]

Been there like so many others. Lost my beloved TB after 18 horrid months of soundness issues. I was lucky in that I had 6 good riding years with her, but like so many TBs the issues started showing up at age 10. My second TB has now been diagnosed with KS and SI issues, she's the nicest person ever so I felt very down about that for a long time. But I am just starting to ride her again and so far (touch wood) it's going well, but the pressure is off. My horses are never drilled in arenas, they have always had and will continue to have a varied riding routine including a lot of hacking and proper fittening work.

I bought a Haflinger, she has been great fun and no bother at all so far. Feels safe and solid and sound. Now looking for my next horse, I am specifically wanting crossbreds with some TB/WB/something else solid in there. I am loathe to buy a well bred WB because of the sad stories I keep reading about them breaking young.

I sympathise OP, it's so heart breaking sometimes.

 

[Quigleyandme]

The Australian Waler stock horse is small, wiry and tough. The horses of the South American countries are small, wiry and tough. The Spanish horse is small, wiry and tough. The Arab horse is small, wiry and tough. I do think Western Europe is breeding for size, looks and movement rather than soundness and longevity.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

@Cardigan you've had some rubbish luck.

I'm feeling the same. I decided to buy a pony (cob type) as had a bad time with my mare. He turned out to have severe neck arthritis, we think either injury or he was born with it in C6-C7 so he was pts at only 9. I also have another cob, and now he has lameness no one can really get to the bottom too. To make things worse I bought him as a youngster and did everything so slowly, hes barely done any work when I think of it.. and sounds like we may never fix him!

and/or a horse which has already stood up to the work you want it to do.

I think this is what I'll do next.. I always bought young thinking I could back it myself, but I think buying something older thats already done the work may be a better way to go!
It always seems its the owners who look after their equines like kinds and queens that get problem, one lady on the yard treats hers like total crap and has never had a days lameness.

 

[palo1]

There is an interesting (historic but still used by some) method of identifying the most robust horses though it needs rather a large group...it's called the Kikuli method: a little more information here: https://www.amazon.com/Kikkuli-Method-Horse-Training/dp/0980443075 It's an interesting view of conditioning and selection for horses that need to be able to work and stay sound; not really practical for most of us but there are some very interesting insights in the study presented here and it's definately worth a read.

 

[paddy555]

There is an interesting (historic but still used by some) method of identifying the most robust horses though it needs rather a large group...it's called the Kikuli method: a little more information here: https://www.amazon.com/Kikkuli-Method-Horse-Training/dp/0980443075 It's an interesting view of conditioning and selection for horses that need to be able to work and stay sound; not really practical for most of us but there are some very interesting insights in the study presented here and it's definately worth a read.

can you elaborate on it please? I cannot afford $500
I would be interested to know briefly what they did and their conclusions.

 

[palo1]

Oh blimey $500!!! I will find the info I have read and disseminate will return with that...

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

I’ve had decent luck with choosing horses, however Having two TB types go tits up on me I just decided to stick with my Welsh types. Had a few Welsh Xs and they have been wonderful sound and fun ponies/horses and bought myself a full Welsh D weanling in 2018. He’s been fab and cost me very little so far.

The blooded types are great if your up for serious competing but I’m just looking for a fun horse do do various things on now so longevity for me means more than competition potential.

 

[palo1]

can you elaborate on it please? I cannot afford $500
I would be interested to know briefly what they did and their conclusions.

This is the most contemporary version of the kikuli method in practice I think - though it is a few years old. Perseverence Endurance horses have a phenomenal record; though I fell out of love with the endurance world a while ago I still think that this has some validity in assessing and conditioning for soundness though it is not a quick process and really probably couldn't apply to very many situations. Still interesting and food for thought and has certainly influenced the way that I tend to condition horses these days (I first read about this some years ago so adopted some elements into my own kind of way iykwim!)

https://perseveranceendurancehorses.wordpress.com/2012/10/17/endurance-training/

Enjoy!

Ann Nyland's conclusions on the Kikuli method were that essentially the 'wastage' of horses using this method was at an early point in their training; only the soundest horses would complete the training - the less sound horses could either be culled or could be utilised for some less intense purpose. There are also some conclusions that this method saved time later in the horses careers as they would only start with sound and fit horses so generally problems were caused by specific injuries etc rather than underlying unsoundnesses. This would also be useful in terms of assessing breeding potential. It would be interesting to know what other peoples thoughts are though I don't want to derail the original thread.

 

[paddy555]

This is the most contemporary version of the kikuli method in practice I think - though it is a few years old. Perseverence Endurance horses have a phenomenal record; though I fell out of love with the endurance world a while ago I still think that this has some validity in assessing and conditioning for soundness though it is not a quick process and really probably couldn't apply to very many situations. Still interesting and food for thought and has certainly influenced the way that I tend to condition horses these days (I first read about this some years ago so adopted some elements into my own kind of way iykwim!)

https://perseveranceendurancehorses.wordpress.com/2012/10/17/endurance-training/

Enjoy!

Ann Nyland's conclusions on the Kikuli method were that essentially the 'wastage' of horses using this method was at an early point in their training; only the soundest horses would complete the training - the less sound horses could either be culled or could be utilised for some less intense purpose. There are also some conclusions that this method saved time later in the horses careers as they would only start with sound and fit horses so generally problems were caused by specific injuries etc rather than underlying unsoundnesses. This would also be useful in terms of assessing breeding potential. It would be interesting to know what other peoples thoughts are though I don't want to derail the original thread.

thanks for that. Bedtime reading!

 

[palo1]

thanks for that. Bedtime reading!

Yes, it is an interesting read! Frustratingly I couldn't actually find my copy of the Nyland study; having moved house etc I can't locate the blooming thing and certainly wouldn't be paying $500 for a new copy. Having said that, what Perseverence does is probably the closest manner in which that system could be applied for most folk today. It reminds me that it was the basis of my initial work with the horse I bought and started 10 years ago.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I have bought an Arab type now (80%) and have an Spanish mare on loan.

I genuinely do not think that I will have another warmblood or thoroughbred again.

I had forgotten how much fun horses can be. The size is actually perfect - I do not miss a 17hh hissy fit. Everything is easier to manage, and I feel so much less pressure to be schooling or competing. I’m really just enjoying having lovely, easy hacking horses who will probably both turn a hoof to popping over fences and doing some dressage.

 

[siennamum]

I have had my 2 most recent horses break. The 1st with KS & current has hock, coffin joint and back problems - he is being worked till the medication stops working. they are both the sort of breeding you would expect to keep going for ever, horse 1 was ISH x Connie, current horse is Connie/IDxLuso/arab. It makes me wonder whether there is a breed of horse I will be able to chose which wont go lame. Currently leaning towards an IDxTB but that feels like it will be a big gamble.

I do think we work them differently and harder than we used to I also think there are lots of stallions and competition horses with poor conformation about - which wasn't really the case with the HIS - when conformation was the be all and end all.

I also think though that we used to attribute bad behaviour to naughtiness rather than pain and a LOT of horses were forced to work with pain. If they were incorrigible, they were sent to the sales &/or PTS. there have always been these issues, my beautiful WHP which I had in 1970 was TBxWelsh & was PTS in her early teens with arthritis of the spine (KS).

 

[whizzer]

I nearly gave up a few years ago, young horse number 1 had a serious field injury,months of rehab against vets advice & he did come sound enough to consider starting work with,then he had another field injury this time breaking a leg & was PTS. Young horse number two 2:bought unbacked homebred young mare,2 yrs & thousands of pounds later, seemed to have sorted all of its physical problems but still not happy under saddle,I never even sat on her once despite the vast amount of money I shelled out,, rehomed her,lost my (retired)horse of a lifetime suddenly to horrific colic 3 days after young horse 2 went to its new home. Then got the chance to buy a cracking little horse that I’d started riding for someone,2 years later she’s become my 2nd horse of a lifetime but if anything happens to her I think I’d possibly give up,not sure I could go through it all again. I’m not getting any younger & I somewhat regret the enormous amounts of money I spent trying to sort the previous ones out.