Anyone see CM get bitten by a Lab?

Tizzy said:
It was over for the dog.

When a dog does something wrong, do you tell it off/scold it there and then so it knows that its behaviour wasnt acceptable with what it had just done. Or do you wait 5 minutes and then tell it off?

A dog would not remember why it was being told off a period after the incident. By then it has forgotten.

CM was not acting aggressivly towards this dog, he was merely asserting his authority. CM/humans are the 'provider' of food.
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A dog can remain stressed though. The dog may have forgotten the "reason" but that does not mean it's emotional state has returned to normal.
 
PolarSkye said:
I actually think Holly would have reacted the same way if a family member had dared to move her food . . . and I don't know about you, but we sometimes have non-family members in the house - strangers to the dogs - some of them not at all dog-savvy.

I'm afraid I'm sticking with my original point which is that Holly's reaction was disproportionate and that she, sadly, isn't terribly suitable as a family pet. Not her fault. Possibly not even her owners' fault. Certainly not CM's fault either.

P
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Why isnt there a like button.:)

Im sure this is quite common behaviour for this dog hence CM being involved, he is not going to wait around all day and wait for it to happen. He has put the dog in a position where he hopes for a reaction which the family have experienced but he never expected the dog to react when the threat
was withdrawn which is not normal behaviour for a dog.
 
mine never have but if they snapped at someone and that person backed off then that dog attacked (and Holly did) they would soon be an x dog

wonder what this dog would be like if a toddler walked past with something tasty in its hand?

could you imagine if that had been a toddlers face?

even if we agree that CM was making the dog stressed it chose to attack not get away that shouts time bomb to me
 
What i dont understand in all of this is the need to be able to take away food that you have given to your dog to eat.?????

Ok potentially a kid could put its hand in the dog bowl etc etc - so feed the dog behind a shut door.

If someone walked over to me whilst I was eating and tried to remove my food they would not get a positive reaction either.
 
PolarSkye said:
I actually think Holly would have reacted the same way if a family member had dared to move her food . . . and I don't know about you, but we sometimes have non-family members in the house - strangers to the dogs - some of them not at all dog-savvy.

I'm afraid I'm sticking with my original point which is that Holly's reaction was disproportionate and that she, sadly, isn't terribly suitable as a family pet. Not her fault. Possibly not even her owners' fault. Certainly not CM's fault either.

P
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Couldn't agree more.
TBH if she were mine she would be dropped off at the vets and not come back, harsh maybe, but unfortunately true.
 
Although I have seen CM on stage that is the first time I have seen him dealing with that sort of situation, hats off to the guy for continuing . To me whatever the reason that is an unpredictable dog and I am afraid she would be going one a one way journey if she were mine.
Lexie, I do not make a habit of taking food from my dogs as adults, but do it occasionally. When they are pups they learn to eat from a bowl with me holding it, with my hands in it etc so they hopefully never become food possessive with people. I do not have a problem with them guarding their food from other dogs and always feed mine separately. With regard to stealing food from children, that is a slightly different scenario as hopefully there would be no resource guarding involved. I had a GSD who managed to remove the ice cream from the cornet a small child was holding as we walked past them at a show. Didn't even realise what had happened until the child started complaining, luckily the parents thought it was hilarious.:o
 
I hate CM and this is why - I find HIM aggressive.... his whole bodylanguage being up close and personal and so threatening i would be scared of him....never mind the poor dog....

the 2nd bite was from (imo!) a nervy dog who saw an aggressive/scary guy in front of her....


Thats my opinion on what i saw - i wouldnt let CM within a mile of my dogs......
 
forgot to also say - from the begining of my dogs life i have (and regularly do)! stick my hands in their food bowls - take them away - ask them to move back etc...


they could be eating a whole chicken and i could pull them off non-aggresive....they wouldnt dream of doing anything like that - as ive done it from day 1
 
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Stencilface said:
I admit to my dog stealing a burger from my friends hand - not aggressively, it was just at the right height! :eek:
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one of mine will steal food out of anyones hands if it within reach she will more often than not take, BUT she wont bite you to get it

Holly snapped CM backed of and then she attacked i see a dangerous dog that i would not hesitate in having PTS, for everyone comparing the dogs feelings to that of a human you are missing a fundemental point Holly is a DOG so she does not think and feel the same as you-too many dogs are not PTS after dangerous actions on their part, people need to realise the dog does not know it is not coming home.

i took a good friends terrier to the vets earlier this year as they had a new baby in the house and the dog was getting more and more stressed and snappy-now things could have been worked on and the dog given more time and exersize but the whole house was being controlled by what had become an unpleasant dog she was PTS and the house is a much happier one for it-although they wont ever get another dog as they realise they did not do the right thing by this one. i think it was the right decision and a brave one
 
'obviously im still very aware ANY dog could snap - im not stupid...but i do trust and know them well enough to know they wouldnt snap.'

noodle_ you have completely contradicted yourself in one sentence-is it intentional?
 
jools1234 said:
Holly snapped CM backed of and then she attacked i see a dangerous dog that i would not hesitate in having PTS, for everyone comparing the dogs feelings to that of a human you are missing a fundemental point Holly is a DOG so she does not think and feel the same as you-too many dogs are not PTS after dangerous actions on their part, people need to realise the dog does not know it is not coming home.
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My comparison to human situations is merely to try to explain some of the possible reasoning nehind the dog's behaviour. Yes, we are not dogs and they are not humans, but we are all animals and share many of the same instinctive behaviours.
It is a survival technique to remain wary of someone who has just acted aggressively towards you - CM has not backed off, he is still right in the vicinity, waving his arms around (which the dog will be wary of, considering CM has been waving his arms all in her face, hitting her in the face etc. minutes before) and then reaches out to her yet again. He may have snatched his hand back but he did not back off from a cornered dog (camera crew one side, owner the other, dog could not retreat any further)
Also, what you see is a dog bite. What you don't see is a prolonged attack, a dog lashing out at anyone or anything - the bite is very specific, it was a bite and hold to the hand that has just been poking and hitting at her. A controlled bite and hold to a hand that had been given absolutely bucketloads of warning signals. I'm not justifying a bite, but this dog was forced into this situation yet still showed a lot of restraint even then. Cats certainly get away with a lot more biting and scratching for minor reasons like not wanting a belly tickle, we cannot expect dogs to be robots that would never bite no matter how hard we pushed them.

I certainly agree with you that dogs do not understand the concept of euthanasia and that it may be kinder in many situations. I certainly would rather take my dog for that one-way trip than hand them over to CM, any day, but these are not the only options. The dog's behaviour is very specific - resource guarding, so not without a trigger. The dog was very restrained up to a certain point, another plus for it - that says to me that the dog could be managed quite efficiently, especially as it gave very clear signals of its discomfort with its body language, and displayed many signs of wanting to avoid confrontation if it had another choice. We cannot judge the sitaution from a short clip but from what I saw here and in another video of Holly, I think a dog like this could easily be managed in the short term (feeding in a crate or behind a babygate, never leaving chews down, either keeping the baby separate or rehoming to a child-free house, etc., and then rehabiliated with much less physical methods than CM favours, in my opinion.
 
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krlyr said:
My comparison to human situations is merely to try to explain some of the possible reasoning nehind the dog's behaviour. Yes, we are not dogs and they are not humans, but we are all animals and share many of the same instinctive behaviours.
It is a survival technique to remain wary of someone who has just acted aggressively towards you - CM has not backed off, he is still right in the vicinity, waving his arms around (which the dog will be wary of, considering CM has been waving his arms all in her face, hitting her in the face etc. minutes before) and then reaches out to her yet again. He may have snatched his hand back but he did not back off from a cornered dog (camera crew one side, owner the other, dog could not retreat any further)
Also, what you see is a dog bite. What you don't see is a prolonged attack, a dog lashing out at anyone or anything - the bite is very specific, it was a bite and hold to the hand that has just been poking and hitting at her. A controlled bite and hold to a hand that had been given absolutely bucketloads of warning signals. I'm not justifying a bite, but this dog was forced into this situation yet still showed a lot of restraint even then. Cats certainly get away with a lot more biting and scratching for minor reasons like not wanting a belly tickle, we cannot expect dogs to be robots that would never bite no matter how hard we pushed them.

I certainly agree with you that dogs do not understand the concept of euthanasia and that it may be kinder in many situations. I certainly would rather take my dog for that one-way trip than hand them over to CM, any day, but these are not the only options. The dog's behaviour is very specific - resource guarding, so not without a trigger. The dog was very restrained up to a certain point, another plus for it - that says to me that the dog could be managed quite efficiently, especially as it gave very clear signals of its discomfort with its body language, and displayed many signs of wanting to avoid confrontation if it had another choice. We cannot judge the sitaution from a short clip but from what I saw here and in another video of Holly, I think a dog like this could easily be managed in the short term (feeding in a crate or behind a babygate, never leaving chews down, either keeping the baby separate or rehoming to a child-free house, etc., and then rehabiliated with much less physical methods than CM favours, in my opinion.
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In my opinion re-homing a dog that has bitten (not snapped) is irresponsible.
I think we have to agree to disagree on the rest of too, i never saw CM hit the dog in the face either-he poked her on her neck in the same way another dog would use its teeth.
 
Like or hate CM, that, to me looks like a confused dog. At the time of the bite, I didn't see it coming. She meant it too.
Bet that hurt!

Either you leave her in peace with her food (if it is purely food orientated) as I can't see it being 'fixed', or due to the unpredictability of the dog, PTS.
I certainly think that no child should be in the same household as this dog.

(and for the record, I don't mind CM and appreciate some of his methods do work on most dogs)
 
The issue as I see it, krlyr, is that although the clip we saw was an orchestrated situation it is one that could very easily occur in any household. CM is deliberately putting pressure on the dog here but any adult or especially a child could do this completely by accident.

I don't actually think it's too much to expect of (most) dogs not to lash out under (most) circumstances. For every dog like the lab in the clip there's a thousand others who would back off the bowl, sit and wait patiently and thump their tail when a hand is extended towards them. Those are the family pets. To keep a dog 100% separate behind a gate or kennelled outside away from family life, walked solo etc. is at best a burden and a misery for both parties and, at worst, a timebomb - everyone makes mistakes.

I didn't expect the bite either, as far as I could see the food bowl issue had passed, CM took the pressure off and was looking away, dog was giving mixed signals but some placatory ones.
 
Agree with everything PS has said and chuckling a bit that anyone who reads the dog's body language differently is 'clueless'.

I've seen a lot of dogs bite in different situations, but in a controlled environment in 'fabricated' circumstances, I see a lot of pressure applied to dogs in different ways, and none of them so far has chosen the option that Holly chose or reacted in that fashion, especially when the pressure was off.
 
I don't disagree that the dog could be pushed to react this way by anyone else too - my point is, what is the purpose of pushing the dog that far? The owner knows the dog has resource guarding issues, the owner knows they have a child that will eventually be toddling around the house. They either accept that it will require very, very strict management or they accept that their household is not the best for the dog or the safest to have both dog and child in..so choose to rehome or euthanise.
I just don't see who benefits from pushing this dog so far, other than CM and his TV show ratings. As a so-called expert in dogs, CM must realise that the dog will react to being pushed and pushed. He may not have expected the bite at that moment but he has to have expected some kind of reaction. Yes, most dogs ideally won't react but this is a dog with a known issue, with known resource guarding displayed as aggression.

The man has no understanding of dog behaviour - pushing the dog and then "dominating" it with stares will not cure its issue, it will teach the dog that its gentler warning signs get ignored and it will have to resort to more drastic measures, like witnessed in the video.

I have to disagree that the pressure was taken off and that the issue had passed, the dog was obviously still in a stressed state, giving off lots of non-mixed signals (very clearly wanting space that CM was not giving it by sitting where he was sitting and waving his arms around infront of and above the dog). I think the situation could have been much more efficiently diffused by CM walking away - even if he truly believes that dominating a dog works, surely he should be teaching it that submission works by walking away once it has submitted?
 
amymay said:
Which gentler warning signs would they be, the growling, snarling or snapping?
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Turning away the head (this dog is absolutely loathe to make eye contact with CM), licking the lips/nose (again, doing this a lot, even when growling), yawning, moving the body to face away, pining the ears back, the dog is throwing out appeasement signals in bucketloads.
I wouldn't call growling a particular nasty method of communication either - many people mistakenly punish a growl but it's just a method of communicating discomfort, fear and so on. A growl that is punished or ignored will just lead to the dog progressing to a snap, and when that fails to get the desired response (which, in most cases, is for some space) the dog has to progress to the next stage, which may be a bite.
 
amymay said:
Which gentler warning signs would they be, the growling, snarling or snapping?
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Say not gentler warning signs, but earlier warning signs, if you feel more comfortable with that. The fact is that growling is a sign that says 'I don't like this, stop it!' Take that away and you can end up with a dog that launches in with a bite without any obvious signs such as growling - as was the case with the US TV presenter who was bitten on the face by a dog on her show last year. In that case, there was no growl of warning - there were more subtle signs but many people would have missed them and as a result of this the presenter was seriously hurt.

I don't think that the dog was to 'blame' here as such - but as I said, many dogs would not have reacted with a bite to that situation. Whether or not this makes her a general danger, who can say - certainly not me from that one little clip. Would I have her as a family dog - no, I don't think so, I would want a more solid temperament with no nerviness at all for that job. But that's not to say she is completely beyond help - like I said, I can't tell either way.
 
Just one more thought. As a rider, I have had it drummed into me that when things go wrong, I blame myself before the horse. I look at myself, to see what I could have done differently, or should have done better, first and foremost. So should the same principle not apply to dog handling? When things go wrong, should we not be asking ourselves what we did wrong - did we misread the signs, were we unclear in what we wanted, did we give the wrong message out?
 
Spudlet said:
Just one more thought. As a rider, I have had it drummed into me that when things go wrong, I blame myself before the horse. I look at myself, to see what I could have done differently, or should have done better, first and foremost. So should the same principle not apply to dog handling? When things go wrong, should we not be asking ourselves what we did wrong - did we misread the signs, were we unclear in what we wanted, did we give the wrong message out?
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yes, but if it is dangerous it still has the same outcome.
 
amy_b said:
yes, but if it is dangerous it still has the same outcome.
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But the point I'm trying to make is, speaking generally and not about this one Lab, is is it dangerous? Or are we all a bit quick to yell 'That dog is dangerous!' when actually, the dog in question just needed to be handled in a way different to the one that we chose?

I'll put it another way... I alpha-rolled my dog once, and he snapped at me. Who was at fault? Me. Has he ever snapped since? No. Do I handle him differently now? Yes. Would some people have shrieked 'Vicious dog! Keep him away from children!'? Probably yes...

But is he actually dangerous, to children or anyone else? No.
 
I do like CM but seeing as his mantra is 'projecting calm assertive energy' I really don't think he was in this case. I didn't like the way he adopted that ninja type position, it looked very threatening and he did reach out to touch her nose when she snapped, it's not like it came completely out of the blue. Having said that her reaction was extreme and no doubt she will be removed from the family. I'd like to watch the entire episode to get a better idea about the dogs personality and temperament, has it been on tv yet?
 
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