fruity
Well-Known Member
Am looking into maybe getting my farrier to use this on one of mine,thought i would try it before getting him fully shod.
This is the stuff:
http://www.vettec.net/
any info appreciated. Thanks
Anyone used the Vettec Sole Guard on unshod hooves??
- Thread starter fruity
- Start date
Am looking into maybe getting my farrier to use this on one of mine,thought i would try it before getting him fully shod.
This is the stuff:
http://www.vettec.net/
any info appreciated. Thanks
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
You would be better off looking at his diet and the way you keep him to see why he needs something to protect his soles at all. Buy Feet First from Amazon and that will tell you where you may need to change things.
fruity
Well-Known Member
His feet are spot on! I just wanted to try a product like this before i stuck shoes on him. We have v flinty ground around us and his feet are flat and the frog touches the ground when he walks and my farrier mentioned this when i asked was there an alternative to just shoeing him,it would v short term anyway.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
But they aren't spot on if you need to protect his soles with this product or with shoes!
His frog SHOULD touch the floor - it's where it's meant to be. The fact that his feet are flat and he can't walk across flints are the evidence that something is wrong with his diet or the way he is kept and worked (eg always on a soft surface, then he'll have soft feet)
Barefoot horses can walk across flints without noticing them when they are fed right and kept right and work a lot. If you want to know what "right" is buy the book recommended.
Otherwise, you're wasting your time with thinking you can protect his soles from the outside, they need to thicken up and concave up from the inside. Just "stick some shoes on him" and have done with it if you don't want to work out how to get him to grow better feet. You will only make him sore otherwise, and shod is better than sore.
His frog SHOULD touch the floor - it's where it's meant to be. The fact that his feet are flat and he can't walk across flints are the evidence that something is wrong with his diet or the way he is kept and worked (eg always on a soft surface, then he'll have soft feet)
Barefoot horses can walk across flints without noticing them when they are fed right and kept right and work a lot. If you want to know what "right" is buy the book recommended.
Otherwise, you're wasting your time with thinking you can protect his soles from the outside, they need to thicken up and concave up from the inside. Just "stick some shoes on him" and have done with it if you don't want to work out how to get him to grow better feet. You will only make him sore otherwise, and shod is better than sore.
Ali2
Well-Known Member
His frogs are supposed to touch the ground! Everything Cptrayes said^^^
fruity
Well-Known Member
i have only had him a short while,he was untouched re his feet. He is on biotin for his feet and on heathy hooves with A&P fast fibre. My aim is to shoe him,he isnt good with men as he was abused and is untrusting with his feet so thought this may be an option for the time being. He hasnt been in real work for various reasons,and yes he has been kept on grass for a long time until i got him but he is now doing more work on rough tracks,i am using naf hoof n sole to help with hardening them up a bit as this weather isnt helping his feet either. I am working with his feet by getting my OH to help with him and he is slowly beginning to trust men a little more,hopefully the farrier can do more than just trim him in the near future.
fruity
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
His frogs are supposed to touch the ground! Everything Cptrayes said^^^
[/ QUOTE ] sorry that sentance was supposed to finish with as his frogs touch the ground they are becoming sore,the farrier thinks the sole needs hardening, and his frog needs to develop more as it is shedding more than it should apparently,it's like sections come off when he goes on the slightest bit of rough ground. I know they are supposed to touch the ground! Came out rather awful that bit! I know the frog sheds but he isn't going to have much left at this rate. Anyway was just really asking re the above product not thoughts on his actual feet!
His frogs are supposed to touch the ground! Everything Cptrayes said^^^
[/ QUOTE ] sorry that sentance was supposed to finish with as his frogs touch the ground they are becoming sore,the farrier thinks the sole needs hardening, and his frog needs to develop more as it is shedding more than it should apparently,it's like sections come off when he goes on the slightest bit of rough ground. I know they are supposed to touch the ground! Came out rather awful that bit! I know the frog sheds but he isn't going to have much left at this rate. Anyway was just really asking re the above product not thoughts on his actual feet!
Ali2
Well-Known Member
Fair dos. You could consider hoof boots to aid his comfort.
magic14339
Well-Known Member
I am a little shocked at the strength of opinion on this one. Why are others so quick to judge!! There are a number of reasons why some horses cope better than others with no shoes. I know a lot of horses who cope well without shoes and others which never will and they all have a carefully formulated diet and regular work. I have not heard much comment on vettec but remember my farrier saying it makes little difference and doesn't stay on all that well?
fruity
Well-Known Member
thank you Equitune,its nice to actually get some feedback on the product itself and not get a lecture on feet! i have had 1 other person say it chips easily so maybe not worth the hassle as i dont think its that cheap anyway. Was just trying to find an alternative for now until he's more settled.
mrdarcy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ] sorry that sentance was supposed to finish with as his frogs touch the ground they are becoming sore,the farrier thinks the sole needs hardening, and his frog needs to develop more as it is shedding more than it should apparently,it's like sections come off when he goes on the slightest bit of rough ground. I know they are supposed to touch the ground! Came out rather awful that bit! I know the frog sheds but he isn't going to have much left at this rate. Anyway was just really asking re the above product not thoughts on his actual feet!
[/ QUOTE ]
Did you farrier tell you he had sore frogs from them touching the ground?
Though frogs aren't supposed to touch the floor constantly or be 100% weight bearing, they are designed to have passive contact as the horse moves. Frogs are supposed to shed - it's a nautral process and he'll grow as much as he needs. If his feet are healthy he won't wear them away to nothing - don't worry!
The worst and most shrivelled frogs you see are those of shod horses where the frog never gets chance to have passive contact with the ground and are therefore never stimulated into growing. Also his sole has no chance of thickening if you shoe him.
Have you tried him over the flinty ground? Is he uncomfortable? If not then keep working him. If yes get him some hoof boots and keep working him until his sole thickens and you can lose the boots. Seems a shame to shoe him if you don't need to. Sorry if it's not the advice you want but we're only trying to save you money you don't need to spend
[/ QUOTE ] sorry that sentance was supposed to finish with as his frogs touch the ground they are becoming sore,the farrier thinks the sole needs hardening, and his frog needs to develop more as it is shedding more than it should apparently,it's like sections come off when he goes on the slightest bit of rough ground. I know they are supposed to touch the ground! Came out rather awful that bit! I know the frog sheds but he isn't going to have much left at this rate. Anyway was just really asking re the above product not thoughts on his actual feet!
[/ QUOTE ]
Did you farrier tell you he had sore frogs from them touching the ground?
The worst and most shrivelled frogs you see are those of shod horses where the frog never gets chance to have passive contact with the ground and are therefore never stimulated into growing. Also his sole has no chance of thickening if you shoe him.
Have you tried him over the flinty ground? Is he uncomfortable? If not then keep working him. If yes get him some hoof boots and keep working him until his sole thickens and you can lose the boots. Seems a shame to shoe him if you don't need to. Sorry if it's not the advice you want but we're only trying to save you money you don't need to spend
sonjafoers
Well-Known Member
I am a bit surprised at the reaction to this post! Some horses are just not suitable to be bare foot due to their confirmation and regardless of diet - I know as I have one. I had an interesting chat about this with my farrier yesterday as I have just been through a year of remedial shoeing/equithane and now (touch wood) have a sound horse with much improved foot confirmation but she will never cope with being barefoot. Anyway I am waffling, my farrier's thoughts are that vettec is not very hardwearing and does tend to fall out in pieces. Even though you only want it short term it may not do the job you want it to do.
fruity
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ] sorry that sentance was supposed to finish with as his frogs touch the ground they are becoming sore,the farrier thinks the sole needs hardening, and his frog needs to develop more as it is shedding more than it should apparently,it's like sections come off when he goes on the slightest bit of rough ground. I know they are supposed to touch the ground! Came out rather awful that bit! I know the frog sheds but he isn't going to have much left at this rate. Anyway was just really asking re the above product not thoughts on his actual feet!
[/ QUOTE ]
Did you farrier tell you he had sore frogs from them touching the ground?
Though frogs aren't supposed to touch the floor constantly or be 100% weight bearing, they are designed to have passive contact as the horse moves. Frogs are supposed to shed - it's a nautral process and he'll grow as much as he needs. If his feet are healthy he won't wear them away to nothing - don't worry!
The worst and most shrivelled frogs you see are those of shod horses where the frog never gets chance to have passive contact with the ground and are therefore never stimulated into growing. Also his sole has no chance of thickening if you shoe him.
Have you tried him over the flinty ground? Is he uncomfortable? If not then keep working him. If yes get him some hoof boots and keep working him until his sole thickens and you can lose the boots. Seems a shame to shoe him if you don't need to. Sorry if it's not the advice you want but we're only trying to save you money you don't need to spend
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes he is v uncomfy on flinty ground,my idea is to get him shod in front (when we can) and use horse boots on the back for now until his soles are stronger and harder. Seems a good half way point.
My OH managed to pick a foot out today so we are making slow progress but am not going to rush him. Thanks all for your help.
[ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ] sorry that sentance was supposed to finish with as his frogs touch the ground they are becoming sore,the farrier thinks the sole needs hardening, and his frog needs to develop more as it is shedding more than it should apparently,it's like sections come off when he goes on the slightest bit of rough ground. I know they are supposed to touch the ground! Came out rather awful that bit! I know the frog sheds but he isn't going to have much left at this rate. Anyway was just really asking re the above product not thoughts on his actual feet!
[/ QUOTE ]
Did you farrier tell you he had sore frogs from them touching the ground?
The worst and most shrivelled frogs you see are those of shod horses where the frog never gets chance to have passive contact with the ground and are therefore never stimulated into growing. Also his sole has no chance of thickening if you shoe him.
Have you tried him over the flinty ground? Is he uncomfortable? If not then keep working him. If yes get him some hoof boots and keep working him until his sole thickens and you can lose the boots. Seems a shame to shoe him if you don't need to. Sorry if it's not the advice you want but we're only trying to save you money you don't need to spend
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes he is v uncomfy on flinty ground,my idea is to get him shod in front (when we can) and use horse boots on the back for now until his soles are stronger and harder. Seems a good half way point.
My OH managed to pick a foot out today so we are making slow progress but am not going to rush him. Thanks all for your help.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Though frogs aren't supposed to touch the floor constantly or be 100% weight bearing
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not with you there Gedenskis girl. My barefooter eventers' and hunters' frogs are in constant contact whenever the foot is on the floor, apart from the pointed half. Dr Robert Bowker's advice is that you should not be able to insert a metal ruler between the ground and your horse's frog when he is standing on the foot. It has an active weightbearing role, not a passive one.
OP thanks for the extra information. It sounds like you are doing a fine job with him. The frog shedding is natural as rotten old layers peel off, and it sounds like he's just beginning to develop a better foot with your better care.
My friend's experience of a product like you asked about is that even with shoes on it fell off.
Though frogs aren't supposed to touch the floor constantly or be 100% weight bearing
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not with you there Gedenskis girl. My barefooter eventers' and hunters' frogs are in constant contact whenever the foot is on the floor, apart from the pointed half. Dr Robert Bowker's advice is that you should not be able to insert a metal ruler between the ground and your horse's frog when he is standing on the foot. It has an active weightbearing role, not a passive one.
OP thanks for the extra information. It sounds like you are doing a fine job with him. The frog shedding is natural as rotten old layers peel off, and it sounds like he's just beginning to develop a better foot with your better care.
My friend's experience of a product like you asked about is that even with shoes on it fell off.
mrdarcy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not with you there Gedenskis girl. My barefooter eventers' and hunters' frogs are in constant contact whenever the foot is on the floor, apart from the pointed half. Dr Robert Bowker's advice is that you should not be able to insert a metal ruler between the ground and your horse's frog when he is standing on the foot. It has an active weightbearing role, not a passive one.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's what I used to believe too but having spent the two weeks before Christmas training with Jaime Jackson he taught that frogs are passive weightbearing structures not active ones. The initial weightbearing is done by the hoof wall and more specifically the water line and even more specifically not even the entire distal water line all the way round the hoof - some horses will have four points of contact, some three, some two in all sorts of different arrangements... some at the toe, some at the quarters etc. With the wild horse hooves we looked at when placed on a hard flat surface you could pass a piece of paper under the frog and also under various point of the hoof wall... all the way to the opposite side for some of them. The frogs of all the wild horse hooves we examined were tucked well up in very concaved soles and would only come into play on soft or unlevel ground. Big fat frogs - as I had always been told a healthy hoof should be - they certainly weren't! Not at all what I expecting to see. It was quite surprising and very enlightening
I'm not with you there Gedenskis girl. My barefooter eventers' and hunters' frogs are in constant contact whenever the foot is on the floor, apart from the pointed half. Dr Robert Bowker's advice is that you should not be able to insert a metal ruler between the ground and your horse's frog when he is standing on the foot. It has an active weightbearing role, not a passive one.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's what I used to believe too but having spent the two weeks before Christmas training with Jaime Jackson he taught that frogs are passive weightbearing structures not active ones. The initial weightbearing is done by the hoof wall and more specifically the water line and even more specifically not even the entire distal water line all the way round the hoof - some horses will have four points of contact, some three, some two in all sorts of different arrangements... some at the toe, some at the quarters etc. With the wild horse hooves we looked at when placed on a hard flat surface you could pass a piece of paper under the frog and also under various point of the hoof wall... all the way to the opposite side for some of them. The frogs of all the wild horse hooves we examined were tucked well up in very concaved soles and would only come into play on soft or unlevel ground. Big fat frogs - as I had always been told a healthy hoof should be - they certainly weren't! Not at all what I expecting to see. It was quite surprising and very enlightening
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Well in a wet climate in Britain I think Jaime is wrong. I couldn't make my boys NOT walk on their frogs no matter how hard I tried. My horses aren't wild horses and they want to walk on their frogs. I'm with Bowker, who researches extensively into domesticated horses in ridden work, not into the wild horse foot model. We'll have to agree to disagree 
mrdarcy
Well-Known Member
Healthy disagreement is healthy
My barefoot neds certainly have more hydrated frogs than the ones I saw in the US but they don't bear weight on flat, hard ground. They only seem to come into play on softer (read muddy!) going. And JJ confirmed that in the three months of the year the mustangs live in almost constant mud their frogs do become much more hydrated (I'm postulating but I reckon this is all about giving them extra grip).
I did worry about my horses' frogs before I went to the US. And I used to watch them move, completely paranoid, trying to see if they were landing heel first... which sometimes they did and sometimes they didn't. Again JJ's training reassured me - the healthy hoof will land where it needs to land... sometimes heel first, sometimes flat, sometimes on the inside edge, sometimes the outside edge, even toe first at times - all depends on speed, direction (particularly when changing direction), terrain (hard, soft, slippy, rocky, snowy etc).
My barefoot neds certainly have more hydrated frogs than the ones I saw in the US but they don't bear weight on flat, hard ground. They only seem to come into play on softer (read muddy!) going. And JJ confirmed that in the three months of the year the mustangs live in almost constant mud their frogs do become much more hydrated (I'm postulating but I reckon this is all about giving them extra grip).
I did worry about my horses' frogs before I went to the US. And I used to watch them move, completely paranoid, trying to see if they were landing heel first... which sometimes they did and sometimes they didn't. Again JJ's training reassured me - the healthy hoof will land where it needs to land... sometimes heel first, sometimes flat, sometimes on the inside edge, sometimes the outside edge, even toe first at times - all depends on speed, direction (particularly when changing direction), terrain (hard, soft, slippy, rocky, snowy etc).
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I just have to agree with my horses I can't get them to grow a mustang foot if they won't, so I figure they are optimised for the UK with a big fat wide ground bearing frog. As long as they hunt and event sound I'm happy to defer to their opinion of what they need.
I can't get them to grow a mustang foot if they won't, so I figure they are optimised for the UK with a big fat wide ground bearing frog. As long as they hunt and event sound I'm happy to defer to their opinion of what they need.LucyPriory
Well-Known Member
Um - this was about a particular product - I admit I have no experience of it. But learnt the hard way that sticking things on or over my horses feet long term is usually not good.
Re the froggy thing. Yay - the horse/hoof never lies. They grow the foot they need, we have to listen and if they are not self trimming we have to be doubly conscious of only removing what nature would if we allowed. Which has made it much easier for me to live with my horses extreme bars, which I reckon she has decided she needs for now, but may decide she doesn't need later Ditto frogs, they were tiny, then huge and have now settled at a more medium size. For now anyway.
Re the froggy thing. Yay - the horse/hoof never lies. They grow the foot they need, we have to listen and if they are not self trimming we have to be doubly conscious of only removing what nature would if we allowed. Which has made it much easier for me to live with my horses extreme bars, which I reckon she has decided she needs for now, but may decide she doesn't need later
Ditto frogs, they were tiny, then huge and have now settled at a more medium size. For now anyway.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
GG I have asked a friend who also trained in the US with two of the "big names" and has seen mustang feet. Her response was:
"Desert hooves look nothing like wet weather hooves - thats all there is to it "
I am puzzled by your horses not bearing weight on the frog on a flat surface. I could not stop mine if I tried. They do lots of road work in preparing for eventing and hunting and I have never taken height off their heels in trimming. So I simply can't stop them bearing weight on their frog, they are choosing to grow a foot like it. All my friends and acquaintances hardworking horses' feet are the same - do your barefooters do much work on tough surfaces? Do you trim their frogs?
I am completely with you on the footfall, they will put their foot down as the ground dictates. In slippery conditions particularly they will choose toe first. But on a flat hard surface, every sound hardworking barefooter that I know (quite a few!) lands clearly heel first. The navicular rehab horses that my friend deals with do not come sound until their landing changes to heel first.
Out of interest, will it change how you trim after seeing the wild horse feet?
"Desert hooves look nothing like wet weather hooves - thats all there is to it "
I am puzzled by your horses not bearing weight on the frog on a flat surface. I could not stop mine if I tried. They do lots of road work in preparing for eventing and hunting and I have never taken height off their heels in trimming. So I simply can't stop them bearing weight on their frog, they are choosing to grow a foot like it. All my friends and acquaintances hardworking horses' feet are the same - do your barefooters do much work on tough surfaces? Do you trim their frogs?
I am completely with you on the footfall, they will put their foot down as the ground dictates. In slippery conditions particularly they will choose toe first. But on a flat hard surface, every sound hardworking barefooter that I know (quite a few!) lands clearly heel first. The navicular rehab horses that my friend deals with do not come sound until their landing changes to heel first.
Out of interest, will it change how you trim after seeing the wild horse feet?