(Apologies in advance!) Is negative reinforcement a fundamental part of training if we are to ride horses?

[Anna Clara]

I'm so sorry, I know this is an emotive subject that has been done to death but I've tried to do a a lot of reading on this and have really struggled to find information on using only strict positive reinforcement techniques on the ridden and schooled horse.

I have no horsey qualifications but have ridden out eventers, polo ponies, schooled dressage horses, hunted over here and in Ireland including side saddle as well as taught horses to go bridleless, bow, spanish walk and wrote articles on kinder horsemanship for Intelligent Horsemanship magazine when I was younger. I've stopped having lessons with instructors who have told me to keep increasing my leg or contact aids when it is obvious the root problem is the horse's understanding and have ridden nearly everything I've had in a snaffle and cavesson. So I'm not a complete cynic or stuck in very traditional ways and I am open to change and making things better for our horses. I would hate to think I am rough or unfair to the horses I ride/deal with.

From my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong)
Negative reinforcement = applying pressure until the horse does what you went then releasing. So you want the correct canter strike off, you apply independent leg pressure using your leg aids and legs go back to normal once horse is cantering. Then leg pressure is used to adjust the canter e.g. put one leg back on to stop quarters swinging out, released when quarters are back on the straight etc.

Positive reinforcement = things like rewarding your horse when it stands at the mounting block and not using pressure on the bit to say stand still? Then using walk on as a voice aid, not your legs to apply pressure?

Presuming that either way we reward a horse lots for standing at the block, doing a good transition etc. with a good boy and neck rub or click or whatever it is (because who doesn't?), I am struggling to understand the difference between the light pressure used to ask a horse to walk on, turn on the forehand, shoulder in etc and using a physical cue e.g. tap horse to move hind end over then give it a treat or touch leg to pick up then reward and give it a treat. It seems from positive reinforcement advocates the latter might be fine but the former not? Or is the latter wrong too? Where do we draw the line? Does the reward have to be food?

I've got into a bit of a debate with a friend who is a qualified animal behaviourist and positive reinforcement trainer whose opinion is most horses only do what they do to avoid negative pressure. I do believe this to be true in a probably shocking number of cases but I've also said I believe many horses love what they do, be it jumping, hacking, going to competitions etc. I'm not a competitive rider myself but I do also believe competitive riding at low levels encourages good horsemanship, riding and healthcare. I think that horses can gain a lot from human/horse interactions and enjoy learning and using their bodies when we do our best to use subtle aids, kind training broken down into small steps and have balanced riding that does not harm their backs. Of course this depends on the individual horse and we owe it to them to listen to what they want too. I had a pony I could ride side saddle with just a rope round his neck doing canter, walk, canter on the other rein transitions out in open fields but that is still negative reinforcement as I was applying light neck rope pressure and pressure through my thigh to change leg. I don't think he was very upset by the idea though, he didn't even put his head down to eat the grass!

Is it really possible to use no pressure at all (and by this she does seem to be mean no leg, no hand asking for flexion etc) to train a horse to have a strong healthy back to carry a rider, a relaxed head carriage, flexion throughout its body and be safe to ride with only positive reinforcement or is negative reinforcement with lots of praise a fundamental part of horse training if we are to ride horses, and does not necessarily mean we are forcing them to do things they don't want to do?

(Or have I got the two types of training completely mixed up and I'm just a confused mess?!)

 

[ihatework]

Why don’t you ask your behaviourist friend the second last paragraph and see what their response is.

If it’s yes, ask them to show you how ?

 

[cobgoblin]

Negative reinforcement... Take something away to produce behaviour.
Positive reinforcement... Add something in to produce behaviour.

Just because it's called negative doesn't mean it's bad and just because it's called positive it doesn't mean its good.

Another one that would love to see your friend train a horse.
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[Meowy Catkin]

So 'pressure and release' is negative reinforcement?

A vocal command uses positive reinforcement? Where's the positive bit... unless you treat or use a clicker?

I was thinking about how I use pressure and release to train vocal commands. So a simple, everyday one - moving the horses away from the gate when I want to come into the field. My horses like to crowd the gate when I turn up to check them, they are loose in the field so this is entirely their choice. As there is a gate between us, a vocal command that they understand that causes them to move away is very useful in this situation.

There is no point in me saying the command to them randomly as I want them to associate it with a specific thing. So putting my hand flat on their chest, applying a bit of pressure and saying the word as they step back and then taking my hand away is how I start. So I guess this is classic pressure and release? Once you've repeated that a few times they link the backwards step and the word in their mind and you can stop using the hand pressing on the chest.

Now you can be the other side of the gate, say the word and they step away to let you in. No treats though (so where's the positive reinforcement - unless you count the fact that they are rewarded with me checking that they are OK as the 'reward'?) and even if I bring food there is a gap between me entering the field and the hay feeder being filled up as it's not near the gate.

ETA - on thinking a tad more... is me stopping saying the command a release of pressure? So the pressure is the idiot human saying 'back, back' and as they move back I stop nagging them so that's the release?

Blimey... if I can't even get in the field without using pressure and release I have no hope at all of dealing with a horse with positive reinforcement only!

I suppose the big question is - is using pressure and release (obviously restricted to a reasonable level of pressure) actually a bad thing?

 

[stormox]

Negative re-inforcement - putting pressure on with your legs (one at a time or both) until you get the desired response ie forward motion?
Whats wrong with that? It doesnt hurt the horse, no more than a pat does!! Its teaching what the leg aids mean, not punishing the horse....

 

[Anna Clara]

I suppose the big question is - is using pressure and release (obviously restricted to a reasonable level of pressure) actually a bad thing?

I think that is where I am confused and need to learn more too Meowy Catkin.

For the record, she is a beautiful soft rider on traditionally trained horses and works really well with a variety of others on the ground. But I am interested to see how only positive reinforcement can be used to continue a ridden education or if the answer is a mix of both and lots of praise and rewards which perhaps isn't far off a lot of traditional horsemanship anyway.

I find it really fascinating and I'm furloughed and have too much time to think about all of this. I don't even have a fitting saddle at the moment so I've really got way too much time to overthink all of this haha!

 

[mariew]

A different thought that's for sure. To me touch isn't intrinsically negative which is what your friend is saying? Booting a horse in the ribs, yes, but learning to walk from gentle pressure from the legs or a voice command is just a signal to do something. I have seen similar arguments from a dog person here before, but I am not sure you can train a horse the exact same way as a dog? Imagine the surprise if someone used legs on a horse that wasn't used to it

 

[stormox]

So 'pressure and release' is negative reinforcement?


I suppose the big question is - is using pressure and release (obviously restricted to a reasonable level of pressure) actually a bad thing?

The question is - When does touch become pressure???

 

[Otherwise]

I want my horses to understand pressure and release, I think it can be life saving. If they get caught in something I want them to yield and stand rather than fight the pressure. I've seen horses get stable doors hooked onto head collars, stand on their reins or a lead rope, rugs clipped to a wire fence and one horrible moment a horse got it's leg stuck in barbed wire. All could have been made worse if they'd panicked when they felt the pressure rather than yielding to it and figuring it out. I don't see anything wrong using pressure and release on the ground, it doesn't have to be a harsh method, so why not use it when riding?

 

[Cortez]

Training horses, or any animal that doesn't speak the same language as us is firstly about communication and then about compliance. Horses don't communicate with each other by positive reinforcement, there's a lot of negative stuff going on there, and they don't reward each other or feed each other either. Any horse I've ever come across that has been trained to do anything useful has most definitely not been trained by PR, and any that someone has tried to train this way has been a complete disaster.

 

[ycbm]

I think the problem is that the word negative is negative, while the action of negative reinforcement in training a horse has no need to be negative at all, so there is simply no need to avoid it.

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[cobgoblin]

What's the positive reinforcement solution to a bargy cob trying to squash you against the wall?... I'm guessing it's not the sharp elbow.
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[ycbm]

And further to the above, if your friend is a good rider they are using minute weight aids to move the horse. Weight your right seat bone, horse moves right, level the weight, horse stops moving right is classic weight aid usage, but it's also "negative" reinforcement.

Your friend is probably using negative reinforcement all the time to direct her horse, she just isn't recognising it.

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[ihatework]

What's the positive reinforcement solution to a bargy cob trying to squash you against the wall?... I'm guessing it's not the sharp elbow.
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Im positively going to wallop you you ignorant twonk ?‍

 

[smolmaus]

Sounds like a translation problem here.

• Positive punishment (adding something to discourage behaviour like a reprimand or a smack I suppose)
• Positive reinforcement (adding something to encourage, i.e. treats or pats)
• Negative punishment (taking away something to discourage - not sure what this would be for horses)
• Negative reinforcement - (taking away something to encourage - release of pressure)

To me it sounds like your friend is only using positive/ negative reinforcement and not using either form of punishment. But using the phrase "negative reinforcement" sounds like you mean punishment even when you don't. I suppose it's possible she is only using positive reinforcement but I don't see why you would tie one hand behind your back.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Personally, I think that even though they can learn voice commands, I don't believe they actually understand what we babbel about when we talk. So unless you find a true version of Clever Hans, I presume that some amount of your signals will continue to involve body contact when dealing with horses.

I saw a documentary recently where they said a study/studies showed that most horses are extremely good at reading human body language, the problem is that when riding, they can't see if you lift your left eyebrow, or not.
I've heard about a woman who trained her young dog to respond to her different facial signals, like lifting left eyebrow perhaps meant Sit etc. But I think she had to revert back to more standard training as the dog got older, after all, a recall signal being so and so facial expression isn't so useful if your dog is at the other side of a large field. Besides as said, when on a horse's back, they can't see such human signals.

 

[dogatemysalad]

I don't see that pressure and release can be negative reinforcement. It's simply a form of non verbal communication, in the way that tactile sign language is one type of communication with people who are blind and deaf.

 

[Amirah]

Sitting on them is pressure, I've heard more than one trainer declare that the biggest reward we can give them is getting off their backs when they perform the behaviour we want. Makes me wonder if I should be up there at all, although they often seem to be enjoying themselves (but who really knows for sure when they are so keen to please?) I should imagine that apart from the fact that I would slow them down they'd rather I used my own legs.

A rarity maybe, but this horse is feeding his friend (although not as a reward!)

 

[FinnishLapphund]

And further to the above, if your friend is a good rider they are using minute weight aids to move the horse. Weight your right seat bone, horse moves right, level the weight, horse stops moving right is classic weight aid usage, but it's also "negative" reinforcement.

Your friend is probably using negative reinforcement all the time to direct her horse, she just isn't recognising it.

Hear, hear.

Anna Clara you say that your friend is a beautiful, soft rider, but have she broken in a horse? Have she been part of educating a recently broken in horse to a functional riding horse?

It is one thing to teach a horse that already have been taught the basics, to respond to more subtle signals, and another thing to teach a newly broken in horse to canter by doing what? Just sit on it, and wait until it happens to decide to canter, so that you can tell it "Canter", and give it a rewarding pat?

And how would/do she teach it to stop, or slow down without using any hand, or seat signals? Might be a long canter if she's only going to wait for whenever the horse decides it doesn't want to run around the manége any more.

 

[cobgoblin]

Hear, hear.

And how would/do she teach it to stop, or slow down without using any hand, or seat signals? Might be a long canter if she's only going to wait for whenever the horse decides it doesn't want to run around the manége any more.

I imagine this is exactly how it was for the very first horse rider galloping across the plains!
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[FinnishLapphund]

I imagine this is exactly how it was for the very first horse rider galloping across the plains!

But I presume they tried using both their hands, seat, and voice signals.

 

[cobgoblin]

But I presume they tried using both their hands, seat, and voice signals.

Would screaming their head off and hanging on for dear life do?
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[Daughter of the Moor]

Horses use pressure and release when communicating with each other. Virtually all interactions between any species at all use a combination of positive and negative pressure so where's the problem?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I use predominantly pressure/release. Ie -ve reinforcement. I also praise, scratch or stroke but whether the horse is overly motivated by that I am not sure. When teaching something new I tend not to cloud the issue with praise but instead make the release much more obvious. Horses apparently find patting actively aversive! But I think they like the emotional energy from riders who are pleased with them.

I have tried clicker and it worked well for a couple of horses but I generally didn't like it. Some horses got distracted or even agitated - too busy fretting about when the next treat was coming to pay attention to me. And they also made the horses behaviour unnatural. I taught a biter 'head forward, ears forward' which worked to stop her biting. But meant that a year or so later when I forgot I had taught her that it took me longer to realise she was uncomfortable when being tacked up because she had her ears forward and did not nip.

I also agree with those up thread saying trying to ride with no pressure is totally impractical if not impossible. Steering, weight and seat aids, half halts etc are all examples of -ve reinforcement. I think your friend is making her own life much harder and I doubt her horses are any happier than they would be with pressure release added to the mix.

 

[Anna Clara]

Hello, thanks so much for all of these interesting insights!
Turns out I had lost the message somewhere in our debate and she didn't mean not ever applying pressure. I still find this very interesting as it shows how quickly the language used/focus on one school of thought can raise backs (it raised mine).
It's also interesting that in doing lots of reading today lots of alternative trainer's websites do focus on only positive reinforcement.