Arab horses and their appearance in the news

To be honest that makes me feel quite sick. That that poor animal was bred to be like that. Give me a nice cobby head any day. If that's perfection then god know what a normal horse would be to them. It's such a shame to make an animal look so unnatural, so far from what it's supposed to.
 
There's plenty of tales of elastic band type tactics.. TBF from the parents I think it could be pretty natural though, and accentuated by the excessive nostril flaring in the pics/video.

And there is that funky looking grey mare who had a leg over her nose in the womb but was well placed in hand showing despite her 'deformity' or even because of it (at least she wasn't bred for and couldn't pass it on though)
 
I thought that the Arabians, ie. the original breeders, didn't particularly like a dished face and were quite happy to export them to Britain. I have seen early pictures of the Crabbet horses and they were quite chunky, strong looking horses. Very attractive and different to what would have been available in Britain at the time which would have been working vanners, hunters, hacks and polo ponies and children's ponies. Probably hacks and polo ponies would have been variations on the TB.

This picture of the Arab horse popped up on my Facebook page, and I was horrified when I saw it. Only in America .........

And that leads to something else I heard recently, which I don't know if it is true or not. That a deaf Quarter Horse is considered a good thing as they don't react when being shown in the ring. Horses with white above the eye are sometimes deaf and they are being bred like this. Really?????
 
hmm I'm not sure that is the reason.
Deafness is associated with splash white (SW2 according to UC davies, I think probably because of its placement of white), it doesn't matter particularly that white occur above the eye it is when it effects the inner ear hairs. As this area is so specific most horses will not be affected, but the closer the white extends to the ear the more likely it is, but breeding would still be a gamble on it. There are some really good deaf reiners, though I suspect that doesn't have much to do with their deafness, spooks gotta gun being the most famous I would think. (He's down has having $81k winnings and his offspring are very successful but again I think that is down to him having a heap of other attributes rather than his deafness, he is only SW2/n so will only pass on the white spotting at all 50% of the time).
https://www.silverspursequine.com/spooks-gotta-gun
 
I'll just leave this here before retreating to my underground concrete bunker in preparation for the unholy roasting I shall no doubt receive.

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(And yes yes I know the gorgeous takhi is not a true horse (believe it has 66 chromosomes not 64) but they can allegedly interbreed to produce offspring with 65 chromosomes which are fertile. When crossed back to a horse the foal would have 64 and be a "proper horse".)

It's even more shocking if you overlay one (albeit badly done here, hastily by myself, with the poses not quite matching) over the other...
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I find it utterly bizarre that this is considered desirable - he's the most bizarre looking horse! That said, I would be interested to see him in a few years time as I do suspect it will look slightly less extreme once he's mature (though I doubt he will ever look normal!). I was thinking about this today when I was in the field with my own Arab - nearly 25, in her winter woollies, covered in mud and with a normal dished face she couldn't have looked more different to El Rey Magnum, but I can't understand who in their right mind would want his face on a horse rather than hers. I'm not at all surprised that he's a Magnum Psyche grandson, as MP really underlined the American trend for extreme Arabs (though I seem to remember in his case it was his neck, I think his face was quite normal). Funnily enough my mare, like Magnum Psyche, is a Padron granddaughter - yet they are poles apart in terms of type.
 
ester said:
hmm I'm not sure that is the reason.
Deafness is associated with splash white (SW2 according to UC davies, I think probably because of its placement of white), it doesn't matter particularly that white occur above the eye it is when it effects the inner ear hairs. As this area is so specific most horses will not be affected, but the closer the white extends to the ear the more likely it is, but breeding would still be a gamble on it. There are some really good deaf reiners, though I suspect that doesn't have much to do with their deafness, spooks gotta gun being the most famous I would think. (He's down has having $81k winnings and his offspring are very successful but again I think that is down to him having a heap of other attributes rather than his deafness, he is only SW2/n so will only pass on the white spotting at all 50% of the time).
https://www.silverspursequine.com/spooks-gotta-gun
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I thought any of the splash white genes could cause deafness if the white pigment was present in the ears...? Not sure *why* I think that but for some reason I do :lol:
 
ester said:
hmm I'm not sure that is the reason.
Deafness is associated with splash white (SW2 according to UC davies, I think probably because of its placement of white), it doesn't matter particularly that white occur above the eye it is when it effects the inner ear hairs. As this area is so specific most horses will not be affected, but the closer the white extends to the ear the more likely it is, but breeding would still be a gamble on it. There are some really good deaf reiners, though I suspect that doesn't have much to do with their deafness, spooks gotta gun being the most famous I would think. (He's down has having $81k winnings and his offspring are very successful but again I think that is down to him having a heap of other attributes rather than his deafness, he is only SW2/n so will only pass on the white spotting at all 50% of the time).
https://www.silverspursequine.com/spooks-gotta-gun
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That's interesting. Apparently they are very desirable though in the Western world of showing.

Gone off topic, sorry.
 
Diva&Rosie'sMum said:
I thought any of the splash white genes could cause deafness if the white pigment was present in the ears...? Not sure *why* I think that but for some reason I do :lol:
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That is why I quoted UC davies on the SW2, I thought it was any too but they definitely say SW2 (animal genetics doesn't specify)

Orangehorse said:
That's interesting. Apparently they are very desirable though in the Western world of showing.

Gone off topic, sorry.
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They are desirable because they are very good at reining patterns and earn a lot of money. I figure deafness is probably as much a hinderance in training as an advantage in a noisy ring.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
why would you think you were going to get a roasting by posting something that's in total agreement with the general feeling on this thread?
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Because Diva has form in slagging off the breed as a whole.

I don't think that anyone bar certain people in that 'show scene' will think that that is a desirable head.

Don't forget everyone, thankfully there are plenty of Arabs out there that don't look like that. :)

false


If I was going to change the in-hand/halter show scene, it would have to be by altering the scoring system. I did read once that people get cross if they score low in any area bar the limb score. That is backwards in my mind, the limbs should score double or even triple marks. Get rid of a head score and incorporate it into 'type' with instructions that an overly dished head is undesirable. I would also get rid of all clipping, shaving and makeup (I know that the UK is stricter on this than the US is, but these are worldwide changes ;)) plus no extended bridlepaths. As soon as you stop all that extreme 'primping' even the very same horse looks less artificial. I would also get rid of the 'frozen pose' and demand a more relaxed showing style with less banging and noise from the crowd.

I can dream.
 
Because Diva has form in slagging off the breed as a whole.
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OK, on reading this back, it comes across as quite bitchy which wasn't what I intended. It was just meant to be a factual explanation for MOC, not a dig at Diva.

I don't agree that the Przewalski makes a good skull comparison for the arab in question though. I think that a better comparison would be with a desert bred arab. The desert horses were shaped by the environment they lived in, a harsh desert environment, not the Asian steppes. Of course being domesticated rather than wild would have had a say too, but if the horse wasn't tough enough, the Bedouin weren't going to breed from it, well it would probably be dead, so unlikely to reproduce anyway.
 
Faracat said:
OK, on reading this back, it comes across as quite bitchy which wasn't what I intended. It was just meant to be a factual explanation for MOC, not a dig at Diva.

I don't agree that the Przewalski makes a good skull comparison for the arab in question though. I think that a better comparison would be with a desert bred arab. The desert horses were shaped by the environment they lived in, a harsh desert environment, not the Asian steppes. Of course being domesticated rather than wild would have had a say too, but if the horse wasn't tough enough, the Bedouin weren't going to breed from it, well it would probably be dead, so unlikely to reproduce anyway.
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Yeah, I knew it wasn't ideal but know virtually nothing about desert breeds (unless akhal tekes count).

How about these arabs? From books published 1980 - 1990 ish I think...

Me MUCHO MUCHO gusto the second one.

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Unfortunately the head shots are not in profile...but still the difference between them and El Rey Magnum is pretty clear. It will be interesting to see if he actually does go on to develop issues, I think it was said that actually he is fine right now, though I doubt the farm would publicise any problems that did develop anyway.
I am right in thinking that the dish was to ensure air was cool when it reached their lungs?
 
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Akhal Tekes are a different breed. :)

The Arabs in your book are lovely. I managed to find one showing their profile.

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These horses aren't gone. The Arab breed is really diverse with lots of different strains. The Egyptian ones tend to have dishy heads, whereas the Iranian bred ones tend to have straight profiles. An American bred halter horse is not going to be the same as a race bred horse.

It does make me sad that a few unscrupulous breeders are bringing the breed into disrepute and possibly causing suffering or certainly have the potential to cause suffering to the horses themselves if breathing becomes an issue.

It will be interesting to see what the colt looks like when he is fully grown. His head will 'dry out' to a certain extent, but he will always be on the most extreme end of head shape. He's not stallion quality even ignoring his head, but I bet they'll breed from him anyway. :(
 
Diva&Rosie'sMum said:
I am right in thinking that the dish was to ensure air was cool when it reached their lungs?
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I don't know, but in looking for some info on that I found this which is interesting. Of course the jibbah and a dish are separate things, although often seen on the same horse.

Here is a quote from Deb Bennett, an expert on horse conformation:

QUOTE
As to the jibbah (bulging forehead) and dish in the Arabian horse: please go look at my "Principles of Conformation" volumes for a detailed discussion of why different bloodlines of horse have differently-shaped skulls: it has to do with the direction and degree of flexion of the cranial axis, which is not a surface feature -- this is the reason why Arabian horses, as well as some other breeds, have the type of dish that is placed below the eyes, whereas frequently the Lipizzan or many draft horses have arched facial profiles.

The jibbah or bulging forehead is located between the eyes. This is not where the horse's brain is located, and the jibbah has absolutely nothing to do with the brain or brain size. (To locate the brain of the horse, connect a line from its right eye to its left ear, and another line from its left eye to its right ear to form an "X". Where the two lines cross -- two or more inches above the eyes -- is the center of the braincase).

The jibbah area bulges because it is the surface expression of the frontal sinuses which are larger in Arabian and other breeds of Oriental extraction which originally came from, and were adapted to, semi-arid environments. Look with an unbiased eye, and you will also see more or less large jibbahs on donkeys, whose wild ancestors were most certainly desert-adapted; on jackrabbits; on gerbils. In fact, it is rare to find a desert-adapted animal that does not have two characteristics also shared by the Arabian: enlarged frontal sinuses and ears that are long relative to the length of the head. If you want to see really SHORT ears (relative to the length of the head), look at a cold-climate adapted breed such as the Belgian or Shetland.

Think of a camel, too. Don't they have jibbahs?

Quoted by a poster named, "hoogie":
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I believe the misconception comes when people confuse the "dish" with the "jibbah." The jibbah is the bulging of the frontal sinuses - this should create the appearance of a dished profile. Problems come in with the breeding of extremely small muzzles and heads, which lead to narrow palates and compress the space between the mandible and maxilla, narrowing the rostral nasal passages and leaving too little room for the growth of teeth. But this is also not a problem just for Arabians. It's certainly a more general problem, as smaller heads are more attractive on any breed. Deb Bennet has also commented on this tendency in modern breeding.

Maigray
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I imagine he will look much like this dude, to a certain extent I guess I don't quite understand the furore now, about this colt, other than the farm saying he is worth a million (which wouldn't be a lot to some people :p) because there have been plenty of his type previously. I came across this one looking for something else (BJ Thee Mustafa, US bred, exported to saudi)- and 24 years old so not a new phenomenon!

BJTheeMustafa-vi.jpg


http://www.arabianflashlights.com/Portraits/Portrait_BJTheeMustafa.html
 
it is quite normal and perfectly acceptable for a top class arab horse to have a straight profile, it is within the breed standard.
 
thanks Faracat, that is going back a bit though, that's older than me! :D How do you think she would do currently?

Its a an interesting scroll through time those pics though!
 
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I too found it heartbreaking to look at the pictures of that foal. But as others have said, hopefully once fully grown he won't look so unnatural.

It does remind me of extremely cruel practices by humans though, all for their own benefit and to win that all important rosette...
soring on the Tennessee Walker...
ginger or anything that burns under a Arab's tail so they lift it up nice and high for showing...
cutting nerves in ears so the horse always looks alert and interested in their job...
cutting nerves in tails so the horse can't swish his tail and looks more calm in the ring...
tying loads of ropes around a youngster's body to completely wear them out to the point that they can barely stand, and then 'breaking' them in...
hobbling horses with chains...

awful stuff going on in this world.
 
Faracat said:
Akhal Tekes are a different breed. :)

The Arabs in your book are lovely. I managed to find one showing their profile.

8c2adfa8f0f478d8e18f6087122d95da--syria-morocco.jpg


These horses aren't gone. The Arab breed is really diverse with lots of different strains. The Egyptian ones tend to have dishy heads, whereas the Iranian bred ones tend to have straight profiles. An American bred halter horse is not going to be the same as a race bred horse.

It does make me sad that a few unscrupulous breeders are bringing the breed into disrepute and possibly causing suffering or certainly have the potential to cause suffering to the horses themselves if breathing becomes an issue.

It will be interesting to see what the colt looks like when he is fully grown. His head will 'dry out' to a certain extent, but he will always be on the most extreme end of head shape. He's not stallion quality even ignoring his head, but I bet they'll breed from him anyway. :(
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Glad to see I'm not the only teke fan! They are definitely marmite type horses lol....

To be brutually honest I wasn't aware that there even was an Iranian strain of arab (the horse you posted is really lovely); Egyptian yes, Shagya yes, Crabbet/Old English yes, even Russian ones seem to have their own type...I think it's getting to the point where America halter horses need to be grouped off away from other strains, and certainly not promoted as the 'king' of the breed.
They aren't what an arab should be - what any horse should be.
Though personally I'm not sure I get breeding horses purely for "halter" shows to the extent that their physique prevents them participating in other disciplines, obviously there's nothing wrong with producing a type that is promoted by in hand shows, but when an animal has health or welfare problems? To me that's where the line needs to be drawn.
And in the case of El Rey Magnum and his various ancestors that particular line was crossed quite a while ago: let's face it the arabs were bred to be long distance horses for the bedouins and I can't see Mr. Seahorse Face going 1000 miles across a desert any time soon...

As a post scrip, though, that little horse you posted is a proper little stunner. Almost reminds me of a line Kaplan or sovkhoz 2nd akhal teke actually. :D e.g. this one: "Argamak"
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ester said:
thanks Faracat, that is going back a bit though, that's older than me! :D How do you think she would do currently?
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I don't think they'd even take her now TBH. Wrong type for current tastes. Sad really.

Npage I agree with you, there are terrible things done to win and it is abhorrent. There is a line that shouldn't be crossed. I can remember feeling very sad when Bluebell Arabians had an article written about them and they said how they had been shunned by soe owners after speaking out against certain practices that go on. I would have thought that owners would be happy knowing that their horse would go to somewhere that trains kindly, but no, apparently not. Interestingly my gelding's sire was shown by Bluebell until he was sold to somewhere in the Middle East and they spoke about how he loved to show and that they had to be careful to restrict how many classes he did because he would give his all. I really recognise that trait in my gelding, he has a real joie de vivre and when he knows what you want (even if it is just getting up and down a steep Welsh hillside), he does it with gusto and his tail over his back. No gingering required.

.
 
yup seems like the shift started late 90s,

I guess that is my point really what is in the breed standard and what is being judged as good can be two completely different things, and as always the money follows the judging not whatever is written in a breed standard.
 
ester said:
I imagine he will look much like this dude, to a certain extent I guess I don't quite understand the furore now, about this colt, other than the farm saying he is worth a million (which wouldn't be a lot to some people :p) because there have been plenty of his type previously. I came across this one looking for something else (BJ Thee Mustafa, US bred, exported to saudi)- and 24 years old so not a new phenomenon!

BJTheeMustafa-vi.jpg


http://www.arabianflashlights.com/Portraits/Portrait_BJTheeMustafa.html
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I don't think his face compares to El Rey Magnum's at all. The photo you have posted isn't the best angle, and I think makes his face look more dished because he is obviously snorting at something and also I think just the angle it's taken from. If you look at other photos of the same horse, his face looks normal. Yes it's quite dished, but nothing unusual. Bring up a photo of his next to El Rey Magnum and the difference is clear. As for there having been "plenty of his type previously"...not with quite such a deformed looking face there haven't!
 
HashRouge said:
I don't think his face compares to El Rey Magnum's at all. The photo you have posted isn't the best angle, and I think makes his face look more dished because he is obviously snorting at something and also I think just the angle it's taken from. If you look at other photos of the same horse, his face looks normal. Yes it's quite dished, but nothing unusual. Bring up a photo of his next to El Rey Magnum and the difference is clear. As for there having been "plenty of his type previously"...not with quite such a deformed looking face there haven't!
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Really? Do you need to go to specsavers too?
 
I am taking into account that he is still in the foal stage of development and I also think the photos/vidoe of magnum's have a lot of him snorting too.

I am confused by you saying that quite dished isn't unusual, is that not the point for the current horses compared to the straightness in heads in the link posted by faracat? (in which mustafa also appears winning in 1998). Dished that much did used to be unusual and I think his head is excessive in any of the pictures I have seen (of course one persons excessive can be another's 'typey'. I can find any number of sea horse heads without too much trouble, we probably just didn't see them at this age hence me concluding that there have been plenty of his type. I think most of the animals on their site are pretty bad too but their existance hasn't gone viral. - And actually neither did the foal when he was first posted about a couple of months ago so I do find it is odd why the furore now and not then.
 
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