eventrider23
Well-Known Member
I have to say that whilst I would never have expected to like the Highland x Tobago foal, he is truly something scrummy isn't he.....looks VERY self confident and proud of himself in those pictures
Arab x ID - anyone done this or know of any examples?
- Thread starter htobago
- Start date
eventer28
Well-Known Member
I used to have one. She was sweet enough, terrible, terrible conformation though. I sold her to a local lady, she has had her for years and she is very happy with her as a hack. The breeder of this ID x arab mare usually used a TB on his brood mares but that particular year he tried the arab stallion. He said the offspring were nowhere near as quality as the TB x ID. There is also an ID x arab mare at the livery yard where I keep my horses. This one is very well put together but moves terribly (in front), is very hot and naps for England.. I wouldnt have one again!!! My mum has an arab x highland, he too has terrible conformation and movement but he is safe(ish) and tough as old boots but can be quirky.
Rollin
Well-Known Member
Ditto to that. The sister of Danny Welch - Knaresborough Stud has a nice grey gelding out of Arab mare by CB stallion. Heather at Whippletree Stud and myself both have plans to cross CBXArab. Heather has one example already and i would have too had my mare not failed to get in foal. In my case the cross will be a Shagya Arab which normally stands 15.2-16hh and has 7.5 ins of bone.
I know a couple of very experienced CB breeders who think the Arab cross will be as good as or better than TB cross.
I know a couple of very experienced CB breeders who think the Arab cross will be as good as or better than TB cross.
firm
Well-Known Member
Thanks Breeze's mum
Re the ID x Arab - it does look like you could get quite a wide variety in type. Guess it depends like JG says what type of ID mare you have.
Re the ID x Arab - it does look like you could get quite a wide variety in type. Guess it depends like JG says what type of ID mare you have.
htobago
Well-Known Member
I'm sure there are poor examples of these Arab/ID and Arab/Highland crosses - I've seen very poor examples of TB x ID too (and TB x Highland too, for that matter).
I would guess - although I could be wrong - that perhaps in these cases the Arabs used were not of the best quality. Some owners of the best champion Arabs will only let their stallions cover pure-bred Arab mares (a very narrow-minded attitude, IMO), with the result that it is sometimes - more often than one would wish - the lower-quality Arab stallions that are used to breed to non-Arab mares. And possibly in some cases people have used poor-quality ID or Highland (or whatever) mares to 'experiment' with breeding to an Arab.
Dunno - I'm just guessing here. But the Arab has been used traditionally to refine and improve most of the 'heavier' horse and pony breeds, so in principle this cross should work - providing one uses high-quality examples of both breeds?
I would guess - although I could be wrong - that perhaps in these cases the Arabs used were not of the best quality. Some owners of the best champion Arabs will only let their stallions cover pure-bred Arab mares (a very narrow-minded attitude, IMO), with the result that it is sometimes - more often than one would wish - the lower-quality Arab stallions that are used to breed to non-Arab mares. And possibly in some cases people have used poor-quality ID or Highland (or whatever) mares to 'experiment' with breeding to an Arab.
Dunno - I'm just guessing here. But the Arab has been used traditionally to refine and improve most of the 'heavier' horse and pony breeds, so in principle this cross should work - providing one uses high-quality examples of both breeds?
htobago
Well-Known Member
Firm your horses and photos are super - thank you! That first photo is adorable!
firm
Well-Known Member
Thanks
My friend has a Arab x Highland who she bought to drive but she is doing everything with her. She loves to jump and is just a super pony with a beautiful head and such a willing temp under saddle
htobago
Well-Known Member
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Found you this filly, she is ID x Anglo Arab so not quite up to Tobago's standard, but she is a very very pretty filly and he could only add to this sort of mix I think.
http://www.benmarfarm.com/Briette06IDSHGallery.html
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She is lovely - thanks for this!
Found you this filly, she is ID x Anglo Arab so not quite up to Tobago's standard, but she is a very very pretty filly and he could only add to this sort of mix I think.
http://www.benmarfarm.com/Briette06IDSHGallery.html
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She is lovely - thanks for this!
htobago
Well-Known Member
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It was grey but that could have been from either side and wasnt a nice combination of the arab flightyness combined with the slight laziness of the ID.
Before janet says anything i know not all ID's are lazy but quite a lot are.
This horse didnt gain anything from the arab movement wise and was sort of ID build with a small head that didnt fit.
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Janet doesn't disagree - some Irish Draughts are bone idle!!
There is a risk in ANY cross that you'll get bits that don't match from either side of the cross but all other things being equal it's a good cross IMHO. A nice 'traditional' ID mare isn't THAT different from an Arabian (except in the more modern Arabian head - and possibly bone.)
Take this ID filly, for example:
She's not a hefty lump and I can see Tobago prettying up the head a bit and giving more refinement in the neck. Her adding substance and a bit more bone. I can't see any great disaster - and if I wanted to outcross her to another breed, I'd prefer Tobago to a TB as you could end up with a VERY plain head. (I'm NOT planning to outcross her - I personally think it is a CRIME to outcross a good RID mare, they're in short supply!)
I probably wouldn't use Tobago on a big lump of an ID mare - unless she was producing pure-bred foals that were as common as muck! But the risk then would be greater of an odd mix of attributes!
You DO need to be aware that a TB or Arab on an ID will tend to produce a foal that is more TB or Arab than ID - because the TB and the Arab are much older/more established breeds. So you're better using a lighter, more modern type of ID with either - otherwise you DO risk a bit of a mish-mash.
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Thanks Janet - I was hoping you would help us out here! Very good advice, and nice of you to advise us at all given that you don't really approve of outcrossing with good RID mares! As far as I am aware, this breeder is very conscious of her responsibilities to the breed, and this would just be a 'one-off' outcross.
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It was grey but that could have been from either side and wasnt a nice combination of the arab flightyness combined with the slight laziness of the ID.
Before janet says anything i know not all ID's are lazy but quite a lot are.
This horse didnt gain anything from the arab movement wise and was sort of ID build with a small head that didnt fit.
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Janet doesn't disagree - some Irish Draughts are bone idle!!
There is a risk in ANY cross that you'll get bits that don't match from either side of the cross but all other things being equal it's a good cross IMHO. A nice 'traditional' ID mare isn't THAT different from an Arabian (except in the more modern Arabian head - and possibly bone.)
Take this ID filly, for example:
She's not a hefty lump and I can see Tobago prettying up the head a bit and giving more refinement in the neck. Her adding substance and a bit more bone. I can't see any great disaster - and if I wanted to outcross her to another breed, I'd prefer Tobago to a TB as you could end up with a VERY plain head. (I'm NOT planning to outcross her - I personally think it is a CRIME to outcross a good RID mare, they're in short supply!)
I probably wouldn't use Tobago on a big lump of an ID mare - unless she was producing pure-bred foals that were as common as muck! But the risk then would be greater of an odd mix of attributes!
You DO need to be aware that a TB or Arab on an ID will tend to produce a foal that is more TB or Arab than ID - because the TB and the Arab are much older/more established breeds. So you're better using a lighter, more modern type of ID with either - otherwise you DO risk a bit of a mish-mash.
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Thanks Janet - I was hoping you would help us out here! Very good advice, and nice of you to advise us at all given that you don't really approve of outcrossing with good RID mares! As far as I am aware, this breeder is very conscious of her responsibilities to the breed, and this would just be a 'one-off' outcross.
htobago
Well-Known Member
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Ditto to that. The sister of Danny Welch - Knaresborough Stud has a nice grey gelding out of Arab mare by CB stallion. Heather at Whippletree Stud and myself both have plans to cross CBXArab. Heather has one example already and i would have too had my mare not failed to get in foal. In my case the cross will be a Shagya Arab which normally stands 15.2-16hh and has 7.5 ins of bone.
I know a couple of very experienced CB breeders who think the Arab cross will be as good as or better than TB cross.
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That's really interesting - thank you! I have a friend who is also doing Arab/CB crosses; could put you in touch if you like?
Ditto to that. The sister of Danny Welch - Knaresborough Stud has a nice grey gelding out of Arab mare by CB stallion. Heather at Whippletree Stud and myself both have plans to cross CBXArab. Heather has one example already and i would have too had my mare not failed to get in foal. In my case the cross will be a Shagya Arab which normally stands 15.2-16hh and has 7.5 ins of bone.
I know a couple of very experienced CB breeders who think the Arab cross will be as good as or better than TB cross.
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That's really interesting - thank you! I have a friend who is also doing Arab/CB crosses; could put you in touch if you like?
htobago
Well-Known Member
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Do these help at all to give an idea of what we might get from an ID mare?
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I DO like the filly out of the ISH mare - although there's not a LOT of ID to be seen (TB and Arabian breeding tends to dominate.)
From a pure-bred mare (if she's a good 'type') the result should be quite similar but with a little more bone and perhaps a bit chunkier. But again I'd guess you'd see more Arab than ID.
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Thanks again Janet. The dam of this filly is definitely more TB-looking than ID, so this is not a particularly helpful example, but it's the only Tobagoling with any ID in it at all! Oh no hang on there is another foal from a TB x ID mare, but this mare is 7/8ths TB, so even less helpful.
The RID mare in question is a very, very good mare - typey but not too heavy.
Thanks very much everyone for your help. This breeding is only a 'possibility' at the moment - the breeder has many other factors to take into consideration, not least (Janet will be pleased to hear) her sense of obligation to use this excellent mare for pure-RID breeding!
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Do these help at all to give an idea of what we might get from an ID mare?
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I DO like the filly out of the ISH mare - although there's not a LOT of ID to be seen (TB and Arabian breeding tends to dominate.)
From a pure-bred mare (if she's a good 'type') the result should be quite similar but with a little more bone and perhaps a bit chunkier. But again I'd guess you'd see more Arab than ID.
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Thanks again Janet. The dam of this filly is definitely more TB-looking than ID, so this is not a particularly helpful example, but it's the only Tobagoling with any ID in it at all! Oh no hang on there is another foal from a TB x ID mare, but this mare is 7/8ths TB, so even less helpful.
The RID mare in question is a very, very good mare - typey but not too heavy.
Thanks very much everyone for your help. This breeding is only a 'possibility' at the moment - the breeder has many other factors to take into consideration, not least (Janet will be pleased to hear) her sense of obligation to use this excellent mare for pure-RID breeding!
Rollin
Well-Known Member
Yes, I would certainly be interested in getting in touch with her. I should add that one of the reasons for choosing CB/ShG is that both breeds have a wonderful temperament and both have lots of stamina. The Shg is faster and prettier but the CB has great ground covering paces and will carry a lot of weight. Both breeds love to jump.
My dream is years away yet!!
My dream is years away yet!!
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
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This breeding is only a 'possibility' at the moment - the breeder has many other factors to take into consideration, not least (Janet will be pleased to hear) her sense of obligation to use this excellent mare for pure-RID breeding!
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Pleased to hear it!
We'll forgive her ONE outcross as long as the NEXT foal is pure. (With less than 2,000 RID mares left in the WORLD we need to be aiming at EVERY mare at least replacing herself in the breeding herd.)
This breeding is only a 'possibility' at the moment - the breeder has many other factors to take into consideration, not least (Janet will be pleased to hear) her sense of obligation to use this excellent mare for pure-RID breeding!
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Pleased to hear it!
htobago
Well-Known Member
LOL Janet! That's very gracious of you!
I could be wrong (I'll check) but I think this breeder has already bred at least one RID foal from this mare, if not more.
I do totally understand about the need to replace the breeding stock of RIDs - I didn't realise the numbers were as low as that, though!
I could be wrong (I'll check) but I think this breeder has already bred at least one RID foal from this mare, if not more.
I do totally understand about the need to replace the breeding stock of RIDs - I didn't realise the numbers were as low as that, though!
htobago
Well-Known Member
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Yes, I would certainly be interested in getting in touch with her. I should add that one of the reasons for choosing CB/ShG is that both breeds have a wonderful temperament and both have lots of stamina. The Shg is faster and prettier but the CB has great ground covering paces and will carry a lot of weight. Both breeds love to jump.
My dream is years away yet!!
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I'll PM you with contact details. I'd love to see any examples of your Shagya/CB or Arab/CB crosses when they arrive!
Aren't CBs on the 'endangered' list as well? I remember reading somewhere that numbers were pretty low?
Yes, I would certainly be interested in getting in touch with her. I should add that one of the reasons for choosing CB/ShG is that both breeds have a wonderful temperament and both have lots of stamina. The Shg is faster and prettier but the CB has great ground covering paces and will carry a lot of weight. Both breeds love to jump.
My dream is years away yet!!
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I'll PM you with contact details. I'd love to see any examples of your Shagya/CB or Arab/CB crosses when they arrive!
Aren't CBs on the 'endangered' list as well? I remember reading somewhere that numbers were pretty low?
KatB
Well-Known Member
I looked at a gorgeous Arabx ISH when i was buying Goddy, he was lovely but a bit too small!! No reason why shouldnt work IMO....
Rollin
Well-Known Member
Yes. There are only 300 mares left in the world. It is Category One Rare Breed. There are only 75 foals registered each year which is why we must breed 'pure' as well as crossing with ohter breeds. The Shagya is also rare only 50 foals born in France each year.
I will post letter in next 24 hours sent by EU Commission to all Cheif Vets, I have been waiting for two months for permission to post this on the internet.
The French national Stud does not recognise either ID or Cb as pedigree horses. They insist that all foals born in France must have French passports. However I do not want my first rare breed foal due in February to be issued with a French passport saying it is not a pedigree horse.
This letter confirms that under EU Law French resident may obtain their passports from their mother stud books even if that is in another member state. Sadly the contents of this letter have not been conveyed to French vets who m/chip all foals and issue ID's.
Look for the letter I may run a poll.
I will post letter in next 24 hours sent by EU Commission to all Cheif Vets, I have been waiting for two months for permission to post this on the internet.
The French national Stud does not recognise either ID or Cb as pedigree horses. They insist that all foals born in France must have French passports. However I do not want my first rare breed foal due in February to be issued with a French passport saying it is not a pedigree horse.
This letter confirms that under EU Law French resident may obtain their passports from their mother stud books even if that is in another member state. Sadly the contents of this letter have not been conveyed to French vets who m/chip all foals and issue ID's.
Look for the letter I may run a poll.
Rollin
Well-Known Member
Small is great!! Little Brit is only 15.3hh. Stroller was a pony and my CB mares are ALL Chapmans - 15.2-15.3hh.
Great things come in small packages.
Great things come in small packages.