Arab X Thoroughbreds as eventers?

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seabsicuit2

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Just thinking about putting a mare back in foal for next year as she produced an amazing first foal this year. So any thoughts on using Arab stallions on Thoroughbred mares with the idea of producing a good event type? Or is a 50-50 outcross 'too much'.

A little dose of Arab seems to work well in the Selle Francias as some warmblood lines but I have never seen more than 25 % arabian blood in the event horses competing at a good level. Tamarillo was only 25% arab.

Any reason why the Arab xtb is not popular? are they too sharp/too fine/untalented? Ive never had arabs so I dont know the breed well but just like the idea of having a real blood type that has quality , toughness and athleticsm without it being too big or bulky. Saw some lovely photos of Marcus Reids young horse Highlight who looks amazing and Biddesden stud seems to be producing some nice event types with their arab x'S but its difficult to guage how far they will go? The trouble is that I want to produce a star horse , not interested in producing an average allrounder!
 
I am no expert on breeding, but I am guessing there may be better things than a pure Arab. I believe mill law is part Arab.
 
I had an amazing horse which was out of a welsh x Tb mare and a pure Arab stallion. He SJ 1m40 before we got him and he had a half pony brother (out of same stallion I believe) who was on the pony British event team.
He could be spooky in the dressage but he was super athletic and a real gentleman with a phenomenal jump, he was only 15.3hh.
 
I'm no breeding expert (at ALL!) but the only pure Anglo Arab I've ever known had the most amazing unstoppable stamina you wouldn't believe. Incredibly tough and atheltic and kept his fitness amazingly well. Also jumped like a stag. Bit of a hothead, but hey.
 
Also, isn't there a quite famous Arab x TB who evented at four star in recent years? It's on the tip of my tongue - can't remember his name nor who rode it! (WFP?) Argh how annoying, can't remember - help!
 
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This mare is pretty much 50/50 Arab/TB. She is only 15hh though and you wouldn't really call her a star but she did make a very nice all rounder. Not quite what you are after producing:D
 
Hic she looks lovely! I'm just worried about producing a ordinary, mediocre dull horse !

Thanks guys- firewell what was the name of this stallion- your horse sounds fab:)
 
I like a good Arab but I think the major drawback is the likelihood of getting too many Arab traits - lack of size, a less athletic jump, fizziness etc. They are a super refining influence but it's been AGES since any of the big books apprenticed an Arab. If it was the way to make top eventers someone would be doing it.

I think you also might struggle to find the right type. The ones that appear in most sport pedigrees are the Shagya/Polish type - bigger and rangier than the Egyptian types you mostly see around.

With the right mix you might get a super star but I think with only limited kicks at the can, there might be surer ways to go. After all, breeding is only ever about narrowing your odds.
 
Goodness no! I have a 50/50 (most people think she's purebred though), I wouldn't wish her upon anyone to event. To smart, to standy & to unwilling lol. She's a fab horse, but not for that! I'd do endurance or dressage on her any day, but not eventing. Plus she's only 15.1hh
 
I wonder why the studbooks dont 'apprentice' ;) them anymore because they were so popular/fundamental a while ago? It is strange because the formula including arab crosses obviously worked well once upon a time!

Ill have to look around for the Shagya/polish types and see what there is. I would never have considered a Arab X TB before, but having seen pics of Marcus Reid's horse I was totally blown away but have not seen him in action yet. Also I love my 4 year old Selle Francais who has little spots of arab in her too.
 
I think it's partly conformational - Arabs having been bred for endurance and therefore selected for the desirable flat croup and angular hind quarters. They have a reputation for not being jumpers (a bit unfair maybe) but this is probably conformational and in a jumper or eventer, you'd be looking for a big powerful back end as the engine to drive the canter and therefore the jump.

TBH I'd have a careful think about Mill Law - he's a part Arab stallion and his progeny are alarmingly successful, plus if they turn out to be a little ordinary then they are usually smart movers and well bred enough to sell on in any case. I know what you're thinking of breeding and I'd be inclined to look at a Selle jumping stallion with a lot of Arab blood. Have you seen Guepard de Breka? He's rather nice ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTXNFT9FC8A
 
seabsicuit2 said:
Sophie- she sounds a character! does she not jump at all?
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Yes she is :) I bought her to sell on, but after she failed the vet on a possible sarcoid, I took her off the market and she never went back on :P She'll stay with me for a good long while, minus the 'sarcoid' that wasn't! I love her dearly.

She does jump, but I wouldn't call it enjoyable for anybody, rider, spectator or her haha.... She'd rather not, and is very smart, when I had plastic poles, she's plough right through them as they didn't hurt. However, she jumps out of her 4ft electric fencing with no problems, funny that!

She was very immature up until this year, so I gave her a break from jumping and will start again in the spring after lots and lots of hacking out.

She's very picky of who she will and won't work for too. She works brilliantly with me on the flat, but over jumps, she much prefers a novice rider who let's her do it her way and sort of just sits there! XC she goes in at them sideways too, we call it 'the crab' technique.

I wouldn't swap her for the world, I'd also never event her, or try to! I'd rather take my young standardbred purely due to attitude to work.
 
If I was looking for an Arab stallion to put over a TB I would look at Crabbet bloodlines. Traditionally they are a more solid 'riding' type compared the the Egypitian or Polish arab.

How sucessful a cross it will be would depend on the mare (build how much she passes on) and the stallions confirmation/traits etc. Which I presume you know.
I wouldn't say arabs can't jump - I taught a pure Arab to jump 1m happily and it was a case of blind leading the blind as I'd never jumped over 60cm before!

The horse my mum raves amount the most was an Anglo with 1/8th suffolk punch. In his time he was a top hunter and team chaser and mum felt he had the potential to go far if she'd been competitive. He was out of Dancing King.
 
Forgot to say my mare is by Kasadi, by Taqah, by Indian Flame II From Harwood Arabian.

Her mother was, by all accounts a racing TB.

Perhaps she is fast? Who knows as she is a 'minimum effort required' horse.
 
The big stud books have not used straight Arab stallions in many generations now. The Trakehners do accept full Arabs into their studbook but the last one I remember passing a 100 Day Test was more than 20 years ago. I'm sure there are OX horses about but not many. The refining influence is just not as necessary now and there is too much risk of getting undesirable traits.

Even the French AAs are not usually TB x Arab, they are AA x AA.

Breeding is all about being able to predict most accurately which characteristics will be passed on from each parent/family. When you're mating disparate horses you just don't know which bits you're going to get! The best bet, if you're dead set, is to find a stallion being regularly used on tb mares to produce sport horses. Another option would be to find a stallion excelling in producing horses for endurance and then hoping it will be suitable for that market if it isn't going to suit your needs.

Oh, and meant to say Crabbett above, not Polish (although the nicest sport-type Arab stallion I've ever met was Polish) sorry!
 
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Oh, re the decline of the cross, remember what they were crossing the Arab's with! Long way from ' modern type'. And the Arabs in question were generally sturdier than most you see today. Also, I'd hazard a guess they did a lot of experimenting and horses that didn't make the grade either went off to work or went away entirely. As above, the trick is to find the right individuals and "nicks" to produce what you want.

Percherons used Arab ' close up' too, but that was still over 100 years ago.
 
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I have to say I have seen some racing arab stallions which are just gorgeous, really chunky & handsome.
I would have reservations about movement though. Would an arab x tb have the movement to really get upper end marks in the dressage? It would be a gamble, you could end up with a proper daisy cutter.
 
I wouldn't risk it myself, for the reasons already cited. You've got the blood you need from the dam, so don't waste a breeding from her on a risky cross! I wouldn't be against using a stallion carrying arab though, if he had proven stock. My best FEI pony had a large dose of arab, Deco was 75% AA, William is by an AA (Tracy X, quite an araby AA, don't know if there's any semen left?), and Missy is out of Deco and by Mill Law who carries 1/8th arab. The arab blood is a godsend when it comes to getting them fit, and the ones I've had hold their fitness much better too. Have never had a pure TB at top level so maybe you could achieve that from them too.

Have a good hunt around at what's available in France. If you have a look on rechtenstelle's results website they usually show sire, dam , damsire for the entries, and the French are very good about sending the info. Many of their top horses are AA or crossed to AA.
 
I too looked into this with my tb mare but decided against it as too risky in terms of size and jumping ability of the foal.

I would be interested in an Anglo stallion or something with arab another generation back but decided a 50/50 foal would bring too much Arab trait to the table to be an eventing type.
 
I also looked into it for my mare and decided a 50/50 stallion might be better,after all the TB does decend from arab types!! ;) however H Tobago seems to be getting a fair few mares to breed eventers by all accounts...? I think on this one it will be beter to sit it out for a few years and see how they do, three years ago it was all about the warmblood movement and now the XC course designers and pushing them out! I think the TB will always have the advantage in eventing. IMO there are SO many stallions to choose from that you may as well choose something proven.
 
I also looked into this with our old mare, she was 3/4 ID though and built like a brick outhouse! She had a great jump but not the speed or stamina really that I wanted, whereas my Arab gelding has speed and stamina by the bucketload but lacks pure scope - he's fine up to 1m but spreads at that height challenge him and although he has gone bigger on occasion (1.15 in chase me Charlie last summer!) it's not easy and not reliable.
HTobago is stunning, tall and some of his progeny from sportshorse mares are absolutely gorgeous. However I didn't want to breed a 4* horse, I wanted a decent amateurs horse with max ambitions of BE novice and Foxhunter level SJ. Both of which the mare could have managed in height of fences but turns and speed would have held her back!
One thing you are very unlikely to get if you have anything with 50% Arab blood though is an 'average joe' type.
 
One of the problems when looking at pure-bred arabs in this Country is that the types with conformation that appeals to "non-arab" horse breeders became increasingly unpopular in the pure-bred arab world as the halter breeders (where the money is) swerved increasingly towards sea-horse heads, long necks and tubular bodies with height gained at the expense of limb conformation as their ideal. IMO ;):D If a horse is never ridden it doesn't really matter that he might not stand up to work. Which is a shame because arabians were first imported to this country in numbers with the aim of reinforcing the traits of stamina and soundness in the horses being bred. That is why the GSB was reopened to them at the time. Now there is talk of reintroducing stamina and soundness within the arabian breed...

It is also true that you gamble on the size of the offspring if you use a pure-bred Arabian stallion. I am getting horses over 16hh from putting a 15hh stallion on a 16.2hh+ TBx show pony mare, but they could well come out a lot smaller. From what I've seen of them, Tobago's foals from big mares also tend to be bigger than just averaging the sizes would give you.

The resurgence in the admitted ;) use of Arabian blood, such as it is, is new. That is also true. My oldest youngster is 5 - and he lost most of this year after degloving his pastern in a gate this spring. I believe that Tobago's oldest are 3. Also Arabians are not "designed" to be a quick maturing breed. Which is important if you are breeding to sell, not so much so if you intend to keep and are patient. (I don't think it benefits any horse in terms of its long term soundness to do too much too young but that is a different thread :rolleyes: )

The French breed their Anglo-Arabe as well as Selle-Francaise. I don't know enough to say how the two breeds (because they are both breeds in France) compare in terms of performance.

I may be hallucinating but I thought I saw a thread on HBF regarding two pure-bred arabian stallions that were graded into a warm-blood stud book in Europe in the early part of this year. Probably Trakhener?

A pure-bred arabian is currrently winning at adv medium and PSG BD. Khamsin? He is very high % crabbet.

Technically Tamarillo is registered as a part-bred not an anglo. A small point but it does cause heat elsewhere :D

I also agree that one thing you are unlikely to get is "dull" :D

Good thread! For what its worth, in your position I would be hedging my bets by looking for a proven eventing stallion with high percentage arabian blood. We all know what a gamble it is from any mating of producing excellence. From one mating from one mare I would be seeking to reduce the gamble. And that is said as the owner of a performance tested pure-bred :D. My priorities are slightly different - I am pitching at the next tier down from elite if you like. Versatility being the watchword then. Good arabian blood should give that.
 
My boys father was called Malan, I have a picture somewhere. Long since dead now but he was a chunky Arab not flimsy silly one.

My horse was beautiful and as tough as old boots, he was still winning 3ft classes before he was PTS at 26 and could still pop a 4th fence for fun in the school.

He was so sound as well. It was like he never found anything difficult?! He came 2nd in the newcomers final at 6 which is big and was well on his way to qualifying for the foxhunter one before we got him. This is a long time ago though back in the 80's/90's

I think if you get the right mix and use the right stallion they can be freaks of nature.

There's a young girl on here with the most beautiful and talented Arab horse you have to look up her pictures but I can't remember her user name! I know her horse is called Tiger. He is poetry in motion, if interested I would find out what his lines are :)
 
I love my arabs but if you are after an event super-star I wouldn't use a straight cross personally.

On the plus they love working with you (not against), are tough and have excellent stamina.

On the down side that cross would be likely to be small (my anglo stopped at 14.3, when he should have got to 15.2 plus), and they can be wimpy..
 
siennamum said:
I have to say I have seen some racing arab stallions which are just gorgeous, really chunky & handsome.
I would have reservations about movement though. Would an arab x tb have the movement to really get upper end marks in the dressage? It would be a gamble, you could end up with a proper daisy cutter.
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I lost my arab who was Crabbet on the damside and Russian racing arab on the sires side last year and he was VERY chunky (he's the rose grey in the Jill Thomas videos if you have them!).

I wouldn't agree with the movement comment though, "proper" arabs (not the flimsy showing ones) should have super elevated trots!
 
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