Are bits cruel? Discussion

[Natch]

Just wanted to prompt a discussion on bits. What types do you consider to be cruel/most gentle? Do you have a pet hate on settings used, or what you see riders doing with the bit? Are there some bits that are considered to be strong/mild that can be the opposite with good/bad hands?
Are they necessary at all with so many bitless options on the market? Why?

Some obvious answers and points in there I know, but I got reading the myler bit bank website that showed you how to test an ordinary snaffle on your arm and I winced even looking at it here.

 

[Bounty]

Most bits certainly aren't cruel, the hands on the ends of the reins however....

I personally feel that not enough people take the time to train the horse to 'give' to bit pressure (laterally as well as direct flexion) which results in a unnecessary tug of war between horse and rider.

However - my one mare came to me having been ridden in a balding gag with a double mouthpiece of sharply twisted metal, with offset joints... THAT was cruel

 

[jesterfaerie]

I personally think the bit is only as harsh as the hands that hold it, even a very mild bit can become harsh.
That artical has made me reconsider ever using a single jointed bit agin.

 

[Serephin]

I think bits can be cruel, yes.

I ride very light with my hands - but my TB when I got him had sores in his mouth and hated the bit - I switched to a Dr Cook's bitless bridle and he was much happier in it.

Then again I used to ride my mare bareback and in a head collar on occassions, so bitless wasn't a strange concept to me, although some people can't seem to get their heads around it.

I think that bits are a bit old school to be honest, and the concept of putting a bit of metal - no matter how technically brilliant and modern designed - is very iron age and given the mechanics of the horse, not very pleasant for them either.

just my opinion

 

[Mbronze]

Not the bits that are cruel but the hands most definetely..!!

 

[Dolcé]

I always believed that the snaffle was the gentlest bit going so was absolutely gobsmacked to find out that are nowhere near that and we immediately changed to a french link to get rid of the nutcracker action. I actually surprise myself sometimes at how little I understand about them.

 

[the watcher]

Are bits cruel would almost match with 'is taming and riding horses cruel'

If we accept that riding them is not cruel, then in general bits are not.

I learned to ride western, in some fearsome looking bits, but in reality the hand is so light that they rarely, if ever, take effect. I know how cruel a hackamore can be with a heavy hand.

so my conclusion is that no, they are not, as long as they are fitted and used properly

 

[Natch]

I have heard that some metals can give the horses electric shocks, similar to the static you get off car doors sometimes, hence why some horses suddenly go much better if a different metal is used.

I have also heard that a single jointed bit can bang the roof of the horse's mouth - so the horse opens his mouth to relieve the pressure/pain - so what do we do? Put a flash on him and close off that option.

With a nutcracker action - surely even very light hands would cause that pinch? and curbs - how little pressure does it take on the curb rein to see the bit change from vertical to a lot more like horizontal? Very little.

Bitless fans & dressage experts - do you think it is possible to do things like advanced dressage bitless, or is there no substitute for a bit in certain circumstances?

 

[inkratlet]

I've heard that some varieties of bitless bridles can be very harsh and even cruel too.

It's 6 of one half a dozen of the other IMHO, in most cases it depends on how you use it.

 

[jumpthemoon]

[ QUOTE ]
I've heard that some varieties of bitless bridles can be very harsh and even cruel too.

It's 6 of one half a dozen of the other IMHO, in most cases it depends on how you use it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Def agree with this - a hackamore can be really harsh if used incorrectly. Any item of tack is potentially harsh if used by a harsh rider. Although I do hate single jointed bits and don't use them on my horses, I think if you ride properly and the horses mouth conformation is such that it is ok in a single joint, they can be as mild as any other bit.

 

[Ezme]

"Bits are only as cruel as the hands using them"

I am a great beliver in that old adage. You can break a horses jaw as easilly with a bitless bridle and you can with a bit (have you seen the length of the shanks on some of the bitless bridles!?) When I do carriage driving demonstantions at work i often have riders saying how cruel traditional driving bits look. especially the buxtons that we use http://www.ridingbitz.com/product_detail.cfm?id=A1361 but as long as you understand their action thier a great bit. Writing off the past entirely is not always the answer. this bit has eight different ways you can use it tailoring it exactly to your horse (because during the coaching era the only harness that would stay with a horse was its full collar)
Also it really annoys me that people go for the "mild" bit then spend the whole day hauling on thier horse when (once other schooling issues have been addressed) a slightly stronger or bit or one with a different action, can be used with a light contant and both parties will be much happier.

All in all, its cruel not to use what work for you and your horse.

 

[ReefurG]

Nothing to do with harshness etc....this might be totally wrong (tell me if I'm bonkers!)

but you know how if you chew gum you eventually get tummy ache because the chewing stimulates your brain to tell your stomach you are eating something? Well do you think this happens to horses when they have a bit in?

 

[LCobby]

No, becasuehorses are trickle feeders so stomach is always producing digestive juices. Hence the problems of ulcers and stablel vices if fed lagre amoungt hard food and no steady foraging to ensure some fibre is slawys in the stomach.

Chewing gum produces alot of saliva that is swallowed then slohes around in an acidic empty stomach,

 

[muffinino]

Call me cynical but it's funny how other snaffle bits are called cruel on that website but the ones they're trying sell are fine...

I have used a rubber mullen mouth breaking bit, a french link eggbutt, a single jointed eggbutt and a single jointed rugby pelham (for showing - it has an odd joint that rotates, so not like a normal one, and is shaped to the mouth) on T and guess what? He seems happiest in the single jointed bits. Therefore I use the french link, which seems to be slightly more severe for T, for hunting and competing (control!) and the jointed eggbut for everyday use. He accepts the rugby pelham and double reins nicely and makes a good mouth in it.
I think the noseband also needs to be thought about when looking at how severely a bit works. For example, I use a cavasson for everyday but only because I've sown a reflective strip on to it, before that I went without one, but use a grackle for hunting as T crosses his jaw, opes his mouth and just goes! I firmly believe it has nothing to do with pain from the bit - he accepts it easily when he's not trying to cart off with the hunting field - it's just that he's figured out he can open his mouth, sets his cob neck and there's nowt I can do about it. This makes the french link stronger but kinder in a way than merely using a stronger bit.

 

[Tia]

I've seen this example used before; obviously soft-fleshed arms with a bend in them at the elbow is not comparable, in the slightest, to the structure of a horse's mouth. I have to say, any company who uses this as a marketting ploy will, most likely, not have me buying a bit from them. If this is the extent of their horse mouth knowledge then .....

I haven't used a nutcracker mouthpiece for at least 20 years and never would consider one at any time in the future; there are so much better bits around. I like french link mouthpieces the best; I use Sprenger KK's for most of my guys, however my cutting horse is ridden in a sweetiron curb bit with 3 chain links in the middle and he loves this bit. Obviously western riding is not the same as English therefore what works in this discipline, wouldn't in English.

 

[archie1]

they are only as cruel as the rider but i have tried several different types of bit in mine and hes happiest in an eggbutt snaffle then a old english gag (snaffle with the rope cheeks). tried different metal, french links, dr bristols, pelhams, gags, lozenges, different cheeks but he prefferred the nutcracker action. am i being cruel???

 

[Natch]

Ooh never realised you did western Tia! Interesting point about the arm test, I agree your arm is not anatomically the same as a horse's mouth but as a general demonstration doesn't it have a place? It certainly got me thinking on the subject anyway (maybe as a marketeer I have a soft spot for gimicks though?? Although I have to say their sell on their own bits doesn't convince me). I haven't used a snaffle for about 10 years and can't see me having a need for one again.

Western riders, maybe you could explain to those of us who don't know anything about western riding (me! and maybe others) why the bits are "harsh" - as far as I understand it you hardly ever use it more than a lightest feel, so what is the "harshness" there for - sliding stops etc maybe? What does the (curb effect/joints/etc) achieve that a straight bar, say, loose ring snaffle wouldn't? Not picking a fight at all, just curious!

Ezme - maybe you could explain similar for driving folk? I have occasionally groomed for a lady who drives (a 4 wheeler on roads for pleasure) and as I understand it the horse should do everything more or less from voice alone, the reins/bit is there only to a) indicate direction and b) in case of emergency, where because it involves a carriage and if things went wrong they would go BADLY wrong, you need a bit that the horse will respond to. Am I along the right lines?

fascinating subject!

 

[Enfys]

I don't think so, not necessarily. A bitless can be just as harsh, German Hackamores can be positively evil in the wrong hands for instance.

I have no pet hates personally concerning bits, my pet hate is people who condemn the use of a certain bit/tack/'gadget' whatever, on a certain horse without knowing anything about the horse and its' way of going. Walk a mile in the other man's shoes before you bitch about them is the way I see it.

When push comes to shove, isn't riding horses at all cruel then?

Presuming the bit fits, blah, blah, blah, as usual, it all comes down to the hand on the rein, not what is actually in the mouth.

My own horse prefers this bit , oh, and before anyone comments, I have done away with the chicago screws.

 

[Shilasdair]

Psst!
French link, and Dr Bristols ARE snaffles. (Just felt the need to point that out.)
And you can do horrible damage to a horse's skull with a bitless bridle.
I agree that any bit or bitless bridle is only as kind as the rider's hands - and also that all horses have different mouth conformation so will suit different bits.
S

 

[muffinino]

Naturally - You are correct about driving horses, to a certain degree. I used to groom for and drive scurry ponies and helped break a fair few.
We generally used a Liverpool bit for all breaking and schooling in harness, as it gives a great deal of control, which is needed when it's jst about all you have a brake! It can be used plain cheek or lower down the bar, the lower the rein, the stronger the contact.
Only one of ours had to be driven on the lower bars and then only in the ring as he was a very strong, excitable, cobby youngster! In walk and trot they generally responded to voice commands with the bit as a guide to where they should go. In a flat out gallop round a scurry course the bit was needed more but still in conjunction with the voice.
Again, it depends on the driver's hands and what's used with the bits in terms of nosebands, chains etc. My boss was one of the top drivers in the country and his ponies lasted a lifetime with good, soft mouths. They were ridden under saddle in eggbutt snaffles. The driving bits (for the most part) were wrapped to make them softer and a few (including his HOYS winner) had elasticated curb chains to soften further.

 

[muffinino]

Here's a Liverpool bit:

As I said, it depends on the hands holding it. Not all horses like it but for the most part ours seemed to go very happily in it.

 

[Tia]

I think the biggest difference really between English and western is the way in which a bit/hand/contact works. With English, the rider has direct contact with the bit, regardless of how firm/gentle their hands are. In western there really is no direct mouth contact from the riders hand (only one hand is generally used to ride western). The western bit works on leverage and curb action and roof of the mouth feels slight pressure, therefore when you ask a western horse to do something you are not asking with your fingers as in English riding, you are asking with simply the movement of the bit and movement of the reins (obviously as well as other aids). What I mean is that the horse can feel what you are doing just by the movement of your hand without you ever having to take up a "contact". Just the action of you moving your wrist or your arm will have the horse do as is asked.

With my little guy, he has automatic response and I can go from galloping to whoa immediately without ever taking up a contact. He is 6 years old now, so he is classed as a seasoned horse over here.

Young western horses, however, are always started in snaffle bits and then as they progress in their knowledge and understanding they are moved onto curb bits in order to finesse the movements.

 

[Tia]

Yes Chicago screws are the work of the devil! I dislike them with a passion.

 

[Natch]

muffinino - WOW! Wow oh wow what I would give to have had the opportunities you have had!!

Taking a wild guess here but is it Mr Osbourne you're talking about? (LOL if not, he's the only bloke who has scurried at HOYS that I know!) I would love to scurry drive.

Liverpool driving bits are really interesting aren't they, so many different settings (I guess like the one posted eariler too).

A pet hate of mine is a yard I know where about 40 horses are ridden in dutch gags, bottom hole. You're not telling me each and every one of those needs it!

 

[Ezme]

[ QUOTE ]


Liverpool driving bits are really interesting aren't they, so many different settings (I guess like the one posted eariler too).

A pet hate of mine is a yard I know where about 40 horses are ridden in dutch gags, bottom hole. You're not telling me each and every one of those needs it!

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, i'd love to have a go with scurry. Most driving bits are so versitile, its a topic that really interests me and makes me wonder about all these new wonder bits when a single bit will suit so many horses, not that i think modern bits are wrong just that people change thier bit too readilly without looking at mouth problems or their position/how their asking etc.

We use buxtons and liverpools while driving and none of our horses have ever been on any setting harsher than top bar with the smooth side of the mouthpiece, probs equivilant leverage to a hanging cheek snaffle i.e. limited poll (and curb) pressure. We only tend to resort to this at the begging of the season or if we're at a carnival etc when the horses are a little jumpy or fresh. They occasionally get ridden in an open bridle with a single jointed eggbut snaffle with no noseband and seem to be equally happy taking up a nice light contact.

I am starting to hate dutch gags/ 3 ring snaffle, seems such a fashion thing now. I love looking at the old bits and how thing havnt really changed!

 

[Natch]

So it is a fashion then not just the one yard i know?

My goodness. F would go mad if I put him in one of those! Was bad enough when I got my double reins the wrong way round in one of my hands in a pelham (by accident at a show - had just singlehandedly caught a loose horse - what a good reining pony F was lol!) - he was bucking around the arena tring to tell me "you dozy cow, switch fingers!"

He doesn't tolerate fools gladly

 

[Donkeymad]

Different bits suit different horses and bits (and bridles) are only cruel when used in a cruel manner. Driving bits _Liverpool) also have a further setting, depending on which way the straight or ridged side of the mouth piece is placed. The Army Reversible is another such bit, frequently used for driving and just as useful for riding, suiting a wide range of mouths. I actually drive one of my mares in a Dr Cook type bridle and can agree that there is possibilty for them to cause pain/damage.

I agree with those who say it is not the bit that is cruel, but the hands that use it.

 

[muffinino]

Ha! Naturally, you couldn't be more wrong, I'm afraid. I have helped to break a couple of pairs for him but, well, I can't say any more for risk of being defamatory.

No, I used to work for the current chairman of the Scurry Drivers Association, it was hard but I absolutely loved it! The SDA and the Osborne group split under rather bad circumstances a few years ago. I still help out with SDA shows, grooming for anyone and helping on the sidelines. If only I had the money to have my own pair...have a name ready and everything!

 

[Chestnuttymare]

My girl came to me with a fear of bits and it took a bit of work and gentle hands to get over it. I now ride in a level 3 myler or a eggbut french link. She has only had a single jointed bit in her mouth once since being with me nearly 5 years. I would love to try a dr cook or similar, a bit worried now with someone saying it can damage their head.
I also wouldn't ride her in a loose ring as i would be scared of it pinching the corners of her mouth.

 

[PapaFrita]

Bits aren't cruel. Hands certainly can be.