Are bits evil?!

I don't think it's as black and white as a definite evil or a definite not.
In an ideal world, I'd be riding my guy in as little as possible. But that's not happening at the moment. I have thought about trying bitless, but that would limit me on the competing front and I wouldn't be able to ride in pony club without a bit. The wrong combination of bit + rider + horse = disaster (inevitable). But all the same, not every single horse is going to take to bitless (as Trish has pointed out) and not every rider will feel comfortable riding without a bit.
 
most NH'ers use rope halters initially, but progress to bits when at sufficient level of training. Taking away the bit helps train the rider, it is more for the riders benefit than the horse. The bit in itself is not bad, can be badly used. Some bits (some really nasty ones should be banned), but bits assist with refinement in communication. Most NH people use bits as well.

Having said that, all my horses have been really responive to ride in halters, and there is no control issues with these. I would be comfortable riding at say pony club or adult riding club in a rope halter (in fact our adult riding club allows this ), and would feel safe. the horses seem to enjoy them.
 
Also - I taught all my kids to ride in a halter, rather than bridle. They all have good hands, something that has been commented on by several instructors. I think because I allowed them to ride without contact, and focused on their seat, and balance, and keeping horse forward. Whereas a lot of people are taught to hang on to the pony from their first ride.
 
I find myself agreeing with just about all of the points raised so will offer a totally different idea. In your photo you have a Dutch Gag bit with 3 rings on your horse. How about you use 2 reins on it, 1 on the biggest ring and a thinner rein on the lower ring. That way you are in no danger of ever riding with the brakes always on. Just a thought, makes a big difference to the bit when used that way.
 
Pale Rider said:
Riding without a bit is not difficult, if you feel that your horse is too difficult to be ridden without one, its a problem you have, not your horse. You should be riding the horse, not its head anyway.
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Please please PLEASE Pale Rider, let me send you hunting on my horse without a bit. I could do with the laugh :)
 
Your missing the point here CP, I haven't been doing this for forty years and survived by jumping on some horse that's not been schooled properly. I ride what I train. I can and do ride in a bit, very occasionally if I have too, but only if I can pass the cotton test.
 
I think that in the right hands, bitted and bitless bridles can be fantastic. In the wrong hands, both can be a disaster. So it's neither a yes nor a no!
 
Pale Rider said:
Your missing the point here CP, I haven't been doing this for forty years and survived by jumping on some horse that's not been schooled properly. I ride what I train. I can and do ride in a bit, very occasionally if I have too, but only if I can pass the cotton test.
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You think that my horse, and imply that any horse, can't hunt in a field of 50-100 excited horses without a bit because he has not been schooled properly?

Well, I did day that I could do with the laugh :) !!



ps can you tell us what your experience of hunting bitless is? I'd like to know how many horses you have taken and what size fences you jump in what size of field, just to assess how useless I am that only four of the nine horses I have schooled and hunted could have done so bitless, had I wanted.
 
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cloball said:
I agree it does all come down to the hands however I think I am right in saying you can compete in BSJA without a bit and also in the SJ and XC sections of BE just not affiliated dressage?

I like the sentiment of the OP post though as I think it is a goal I would like to strive for one day, if the equine partner is happy with that :p. I think its admirable to compete in what your horse is happy in rather than what everyone else is wearing (that horse SJing with just a bit and reins springs to mind and the teamchasers in pink headcollars) but horses for courses and all.
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Cloball what I meant by that comment is what has already been metioned by others in the post - some horses do not like/respond well to bitless bridles.
If you see my previous post I agree with people that it is not the bit that is evil; only the riders hands.
I'm dressage fan and more of a happy hacker - hence the competition part of my comment.
 
No, but not necessary in many cases either.

I know of at least two (BHS & ABRS even!) riding schools that put novices on horses with either hackamores or Dr Cooks. I like side-pulls too. Pretty much the riding-in-headcollar thing but smarter!

If a horse *really* wants to go then no bit will stop it without pain (witness all the sore mouth corners after exciting hunting excursions...). However 'emergency' one-rein-stops work by moving the whole head which can be done bitless (though not bridless!) too.

Having said that horses learn. And if they are used to being communicated with via a bit getting them used to other aids can take time. I certainly don't take the bit off anything I don't know is either used to bitless or that I'm building a relationship with.

Ideally I suppose I'd ride bridless in arenas and bitless in open areas (for the emergency stop option). In reality I compromise. But keep the aim in mind!
 
Tickles said:
If a horse *really* wants to go then no bit will stop it without pain (witness all the sore mouth corners after exciting hunting excursions...). However 'emergency' one-rein-stops work by moving the whole head which can be done bitless (though not bridless!) too.
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A note of caution for those planning to try this next time their horse is running away -
if you do that emergency stop on the hunting field or anywhere else on a horse which is going flat out, it will fall over. If you watch any stunt rider in films bring a horse down, you can see that it's how they do it.
 
CPTrayes is stronger than me :-)

It *is* similar to how they bring them down but they can bring down a horse at halt too. I *think* it might be the degree/angle of flex that is different.

I don't really do it properly (as in straight to total standstill), just enough to bring share horse back when galloping through fields (not hunting...).
 
Not a good idea doing a one rein stop for the first time when the horse is running away with a mob. Like all decent training you should teach the one rein stop in all paces so your horse knows what your asking.
 
No bits are not evil, but CAN be if used badly by poor riders. I've seen this many times and I hate seeing people 'saw' at a horses' mouth, for NO reason.
 
I'm a bit wary of posting this I found on a quick search as the bloke is an American and you do have to read it (or I did :rolleyes:) a couple of times but there is a lot in it I like the sound of especially my interpretation of his thinking on pulling hard on the reins causing a wall for the horse to hit. I have never tried these methods myself, the last time I was run off with I was a child (don't ride enough or in company probably) and just pulled on alternate reins. It does seem clear though that getting stop signals your horse understands well in place is a rule none of us should underestimate in basic training.
There is a video as well but it's very hard to hear due to wind noise.
http://horses-arizona.com/pages/articles/runaway.html

Off to try and find some English advice on stopping bolting horses. :D
 
cptrayes said:
You think that my horse, and imply that any horse, can't hunt in a field of 50-100 excited horses without a bit because he has not been schooled properly?

Well, I did day that I could do with the laugh :) !!



ps can you tell us what your experience of hunting bitless is? I'd like to know how many horses you have taken and what size fences you jump in what size of field, just to assess how useless I am that only four of the nine horses I have schooled and hunted could have done so bitless, had I wanted.
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Pale Rider said:
Not a good idea doing a one rein stop for the first time when the horse is running away with a mob. Like all decent training you should teach the one rein stop in all paces so your horse knows what your asking.
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My hunting boy will stop when I raise my hands with loops in the reins on a hack by himself. In the hunting field he would not even hear that signal. Different conditions produce different responses in different horses. Just because they behave in a certain way in training does not mean that you can reproduce it in more exciting environments. It depends on the horse.

Pale Rider I'm not sure if you spotted my question earlier about your experience to comment on people's ability to hunt their horses bitless?
 
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A word of caution for anyone trying a horse in a Dr Cooks for the first time - sent my friend's horse into a complete blind panic and he bolted twice round a field before she fell off! She stuck to a conventional bridle after that.

Horses are not machines, and one horse's perfect solution is another's nightmare.

Any item of tack has the potential to be evil if not fitted correctly and used sympathetically.
 
cptrayes said:
My hunting boy will stop when I raise my hands with loops in the reins on a hack by himself. In the hunting field he would not even hear that signal. Different conditions produce different responses in different horses. Just because they behave in a certain way in training does not mean that you can reproduce it in more exciting environments. It depends on the horse.

Pale Rider I'm not sure if you spotted my question earlier about your experience to comment on people's ability to hunt their horses bitless?
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No CP hadn't missed your enquiry, for what it's worth I started hunting in South Wales in the early 70's with the local hunt which used our land. When I moved away I hunted with a hunt in Shropshire, my horse in those days was ridden bitless with no problem. Fences would be about 5'6" or so with fairly decent fields. In the early 80's I had a bit of a Damascus moment and turned away from hunting and decided it was not for me.

More exciting environments mean that you may have to change stratagy to get the results you want, but you should be doing this anyway, as so often trotted out on here, 'All horses are different.' An exciting environment is not really a reason to allow the horse to take over, nor I feel be used as a reason to drop your principles, on a personal level, and start trying to rely on stronger bits, but thats just me. What I have noticed is that many people start quoting their own horse as an exception to the rule, when they reach a point where they cannot progress in training. I get a bit tired of reading posts which start 'Well my horse,' I know we all are guilty of this on occasion, but, it is a cop out.

I don't really care how many horses you have that you can ride bitless or how many you can't. From reading your posts some of the stuff you say is I feel spot on and excellent, other stuff I can leave, same as everyone else really, including me.

I've done all sorts of things with horses, but I don't feel I have to only listen to people who have 'experience' in every field before their opinion is valid. It would be a poor forum if those sort of rules applied.
 
Pale Rider said:
No CP hadn't missed your enquiry, for what it's worth I started hunting in South Wales in the early 70's with the local hunt which used our land. When I moved away I hunted with a hunt in Shropshire, my horse in those days was ridden bitless with no problem. Fences would be about 5'6" or so with fairly decent fields. In the early 80's I had a bit of a Damascus moment and turned away from hunting and decided it was not for me.

An exciting environment is not really a reason to allow the horse to take over, nor I feel be used as a reason to drop your principles, on a personal level, and start trying to rely on stronger bits, but thats just me.

I've done all sorts of things with horses, but I don't feel I have to only listen to people who have 'experience' in every field before their opinion is valid. It would be a poor forum if those sort of rules applied.
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You have hunted one horse bitless? Some will go bitless and some won't, you had the right horse. Your posts to me suggest that you believe that the only reason my current hunter and other people's hunters will not hunt bitless is because we have failed to school them properly.

You do not appear to have the experience to entitle you make such judgements. I have no problem with you voicing your opinion that you feel all horses should be able to hunt bitless, no matter what experience you have. I will of course exercise my own right to tell you that you are wrong. But you effectively told me that I have failed to school my horse properly and THAT you have no justification in saying.

Moreover, the suggestion itself is potentially dangerous. I too have a horse which bolts with nose pressure. After one leg at his first drag hunt in a "combination" bridle with nose pressure I had to leap off quickly when he finally stopped and take out the running noseband and attach my reins to a solid piece of the bit. At home, he had accepted the bit really well, so I second Lauraandjack's note of caution above.
 
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Pale Rider said:
An exciting environment is not really a reason to allow the horse to take over, nor I feel be used as a reason to drop your principles, on a personal level, and start trying to rely on stronger bits, but thats just me.
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Or you could just stop doing things in exciting environments, so you never have to drop your principle that all horses can be ridden bitless?
 
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Well CP, not hunting for me was nothing to do with the horses, but you have reminded me of why I got sick of it, and what a good decision that was.

As I say I have no feelings one way or another on your comments or your successes or failures regarding bitless. I'm sure you have seen hunting folk make a hash of things bitted or not as I have, but I'm sure you would agree that a horse should canter or gallop when asked and stop or change gait when asked. I cannot really get my head around your focus on exciting situations. Horses don't know they are 'hunting' just carting about at speed with people and hounds getting excited.
I've seen plenty of accidents hunting and more often than not its when horses don't do as they are asked, which has to be a training or schooling issue.
 
Sounds like an ideal world to me!!
I wish I lived in an ideal world, how wonderful would that be!!!
I think my horse should be trained to not wear any tack, like an Indian pony... it would certainly save on tack cleaning!
My horse should be trained to follow me round as well, and not live with the confines of 'fencing'. In fact I think my horse should live totally wild and I will live as part of the herd like mowgli and the wolf cubs in jungle book...
 
Not really an ideal world, the question was whether or not bits are evil. Well, horses aren't, and a bit is just another peice of kit, so that only leaves the person holding the rein.
 
Well, after thinking deeply and reading all the replies, I think I'll wait before I get a bitless, if I ever get one at all. Although he fights me a little when I'm putting the bit in, once it's in, he doesn't bat an eyelid.
Because of his previously damaged nose, I doubt it would be a good idea, because he IS strong and gets himself flustered very easily.
Perhaps it's something to think about in the future, when/if he chills out a bit.
 
I've missed reading a few pages of this thread, so please forgive me if I'm repeating what's already been said.

Bits aren't necessarily evil, however, as already said, it depends on how they are used.

I personally do not like a jointed bit, but prefer a mullen mouth or pee wee, or ported pelham etc.

And, don't forget the fitting of the correct bit for the shape of your horse's mouth.

Thick bits aren't always the kindest. If your horse has a very fleshy mouth, lips tongue etc. then a thin bit, or at least one with a port might be kinder as there just might not be enough room for a thick bit.

Many of us, me included might spend four figures on a saddle, but only a few pounds on a bit. You really can tell the difference if you handle a Neue Schule or Myler bit.

In TTEAM, we do do bitless riding with clients, and also riding just with a neck rein or ring, but only under instruction. I cannot describe the feeling of freedom for both horse and rider, but as always, safety first.

So, no, I don't think bits are evil, but should be used with care and thought.
 
I didn't really know the importance of finding the right bit, I see so many people chop and change without giving it a second thought. I think I was VERY lucky with my choice (3 ring gag, 2nd ring, 3rd for hunting (I don't hunt him though)) it fits him well and he seems fine with it. I would like to try a softer bit once I am able to work with him more.
He has chilled a lot more already, I remember a time when the 2nd ring wouldn't stop him!!
 
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