Are gypsy cobs a recognised breed now??

Fii

Fii

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 July 2009
Messages
5,735
Location
Dorset
Visit site
As title really, and who makes these decisions? Does DEFRA have anything to do with deciding about horse breeds?

A little confused as someone stated this on face book tonight, and while i dont think this is right, i cant find anything to back up my "thoughts".
 
Fii said:
As title really, and who makes these decisions? Does DEFRA have anything to do with deciding about horse breeds?

A little confused as someone stated this on face book tonight, and while i dont think this is right, i cant find anything to back up my "thoughts".
Click to expand...

right this is where it gets a bit complicated, and no i can't answer it!! lol, they are not a breed, but a type, but so are warmbloods and Irish sport horses etc, all of which have a registered studbook.....
 
The Irish Cob Society had a stud book and issued passports for a number of years (not sure if that's what you mean?). BUT the society has been suspended, not sure who has the stud book now, could be the Irish Horse Board/ISH.
 
horserider said:
Yes they are and have been for some time now.
Click to expand...

Mmm, this is a difficult one, because a lot of "gypsy cobs" like mine for instance, are good true-to-type "gypsy cobs" BUT have nothing in their passports to indicate sire & dam. Which surely if they're a "breed" rather than a "type", would be necessary?

However at many country/county shows, particularly recently, there seem to have been classes for "traditional" cobs, so perhaps there is a problem in definition, i.e. you can have "traditional", "coloured" or "gypsy" cobs. All of which can be the true type, and possibly none of which have any indication of sire/dam on their paperwork.

So a bit of a conundrum TBH.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
Mmm, this is a difficult one, because a lot of "gypsy cobs" like mine for instance, are good true-to-type "gypsy cobs" BUT have nothing in their passports to indicate sire & dam. Which surely if they're a "breed" rather than a "type", would be necessary?

However at many country/county shows, particularly recently, there seem to have been classes for "traditional" cobs, so perhaps there is a problem in definition, i.e. you can have "traditional", "coloured" or "gypsy" cobs. All of which can be the true type, and possibly none of which have any indication of sire/dam on their paperwork.

So a bit of a conundrum TBH.
Click to expand...

Not really, registries/stud books require DNA and verified parentage just like any other breed.
 
horserider said:
Not really, registries/stud books require DNA and verified parentage just like any other breed.
Click to expand...

But where do you start with a breed/type like this, where breeding has gone on for so long with virtually no written documents!
And who decrees that this breed can now have breed status!
 
I guess they could have a "breed" standard which they would need to confirm to to be classified as that breed which did not require knowing who the sire and dam were.

Breed standards mean that some ponies or horses that have registered parents of that breed could actually not end up being fully registered as a certain breed if for example they get too big or have too much white on them etc.
 
SO1 said:
I guess they could have a "breed" standard which they would need to confirm to to be classified as that breed which did not require knowing who the sire and dam were.

Breed standards mean that some ponies or horses that have registered parents of that breed could actually not end up being fully registered as a certain breed if for example they get too big or have too much white on them etc.
Click to expand...

Where would you even start with gypsy cobs though? They come in so many shapes and forms (usually poor ones) that to actually define a 'standard' would be pretty hard. A high percentage of them have been indiscriminately and very poorly bred to start with.
 
Thats what they are trying to do, make a start on a stud book. If you look at the website they are trying to get cobs registered with verified parentage. Those that arent go in a sub section of the stud book. Surely thats the only way to do this? Start at the beginning :D
 
There's a historically recent breed society over here, it was founded in the 1960s. The foundation stock however were pedigreed animals, just ones who were disallowed into their own breed registry due to colour anomalies or whatever. At some point in the 70s I believe, some 'other' horses were allowed into this registry based on colour. Eventually over the years the society became established and closed to outside unregistered horses as they found their standard and have stuck with it since. It's now a very established breed society even though it is fairly young.

Someone above mentioned WB registries. Hmm it's nothing like 'gypsy cobs' I'm afraid. WB are all pedigreed animals with traceable blood lines going back centuries. They're not crossbreed horses with no parentage. WB registries probably seem a little odd to people who don't understand how they work as horses who are licenced and hold approvals, even if they were born into another registry, can have pedigreed offspring who can be registered with one of many of the WB registries.
 
Spring Feather said:
There's a historically recent breed society over here, it was founded in the 1960s. The foundation stock however were pedigreed animals, just ones who were disallowed into their own breed registry due to colour anomalies or whatever. At some point in the 70s I believe, some 'other' horses were allowed into this registry based on colour. Eventually over the years the society became established and closed to outside unregistered horses as they found their standard and have stuck with it since. It's now a very established breed society even though it is fairly young.

Someone above mentioned WB registries. Hmm it's nothing like 'gypsy cobs' I'm afraid. WB are all pedigreed animals with traceable blood lines going back centuries. They're not crossbreed horses with no parentage. WB registries probably seem a little odd to people who don't understand how they work as horses who are licenced and hold approvals, even if they were born into another registry, can have pedigreed offspring who can be registered with one of many of the WB registries.
Click to expand...

I realise the warmbloods have full traceable parentage, my point was just comparing an open stud book which is for a type of horse (such as ISH, warmbloods etc), versus a closed studbook which is when you have a breed of horse?? I didn't realise the gypsy cob had a closed studbook??
 
competitiondiva said:
I realise the warmbloods have full traceable parentage, my point was just comparing an open stud book which is for a type of horse (such as ISH, warmbloods etc), versus a closed studbook which is when you have a breed of horse??
Click to expand...
Ah, I get you now.
I didn't realise the gypsy cob had a closed studbook??
Click to expand...
Neither did I.
 
Fii said:
But where do you start with a breed/type like this, where breeding has gone on for so long with virtually no written documents!
And who decrees that this breed can now have breed status!
Click to expand...

Not quite. Defra awarded them breed status. Because the cob was bred by gypsy families who could not read and write, their tradition was oral and gypsy horsemen knew who owned the exceptional stallions and these horses would fetch huge prices if ever they were sold.
There were a few foundation stallions, The Old Coal Horse being one of them. Some of the early stallions are so magnificent that it seems only right that they should be awarded breed status, so the lines can be recorded and the best bred from in order to preserve the breed.
There is a breed standard and as with many breeds, the origins go back to oral tradition, only now, with DNA markers, the coloured cob can be entered onto the stud book.
 
Moomin1 said:
Where would you even start with gypsy cobs though? They come in so many shapes and forms (usually poor ones) that to actually define a 'standard' would be pretty hard. A high percentage of them have been indiscriminately and very poorly bred to start with.
Click to expand...

LOL, bit like Tb's then. Not many horses are superb examples of their breed.
 
FrankieCob said:
Thats what they are trying to do, make a start on a stud book. If you look at the website they are trying to get cobs registered with verified parentage. Those that arent go in a sub section of the stud book. Surely thats the only way to do this? Start at the beginning :D
Click to expand...

So they are making a start, this doesnt mean though that they are a breed does it? but still a type !
 
dogatemysalad said:
LOL, bit like Tb's then. Not many horses are superb examples of their breed.
Click to expand...

No there will always be some of any breed that will not be a good example of their breed, but you will be able to trace any animal back, probably as far back as it goes!
For the record i am not rubbishing Gypsy cobs, ( will leave that to Shills) I was just after some information and trying to get an answer to my question! I think it is a very good idea to sort out some sort of breed standered, with licensed stallions for this breed/type!

I am still not convinced i have any sort of answer one way or the other yet!
 
I'm not sure if this is correct or not but to establish a breed don't they have to breed 'true'? So, for instance you might get badly put together horses of any breed but they must be recognisable as that breed and probably pass a DNA test also. I'd imagine it would be difficult with Gypsy cobs because cobby/hairy types (good and bad examples) are often referred to as Gypsy cobs. I think it's a good idea to tighten it all up and try and establish a breed. Who decides on when it becomes a breed and not just a type, is there a committee?
 
There are registries in several countries around the world now, America was the first, probably because they were importing cobs for huge amounts of money, Some of our best stallions went to the states.
The Uk registry started fairly recently, trailing after other countries, but Defra accepted a breed standard recognised internationally.
 
There's a very clever business woman behind it. Interestingly a quick search on the website doesn't actually reveal her name being used anywhere but there are definite links to her and some of her other businesses.

It's all about making money.
 
jemima*askin said:
There's a very clever business woman behind it. Interestingly a quick search on the website doesn't actually reveal her name being used anywhere but there are definite links to her and some of her other businesses.

It's all about making money.
Click to expand...

Hmmm that was in the back of my mind reading this post. I was thinking 'Now why didn't I think of that!'
 
jemima*askin said:
There's a very clever business woman behind it. Interestingly a quick search on the website doesn't actually reveal her name being used anywhere but there are definite links to her and some of her other businesses.

It's all about making money.
Click to expand...

What, in every country with a stud book ? Do you not think the gypsy cob is worthy of being registered and having a standard for future breeding ?
Having been fortunate enough to see some progeny of some of the foundation stallions. I am certainly in favour of the breed being saved from indiscrimate breeding.
Your comment about some unnamed woman making money from promoting gypsy cobs is a bit like saying the registry of Suffolk punches was due to a business plan by Thomas Crisp.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top