Are horses getting sharper or are riding standards dropping?

Riding standards of many youngsters has gone down considerably IMO in recent years. Too much H+S preventing kids from being allowed to learn for themselves and gain proper experience.

Basic things these days which kids don't know about - like rising on the right diagonal - and that is with kids who have not only their own ponies, but youngsters too. :-(
 
Here in NZ, most horses live out all year around, and I still see the same thing. The grass here is generally grown for fattening cows and sheep and maximising production for dairy, so it isn't always the best thing out for horses. I see far too many horses that are over fed (even if it is just grass) and under worked. Even if they are hacked out, they might just get walked for an hour, 'cos the rider is too scared to break into a trot.

I come from an endurance back ground and when my horses go out the gate, they know it's 45 minutes or more of trot/canter, not to mention "work" happens four or five days a week. Even the dressage horse does same. The fitter they are, the more sensible they are, which is quite the opposite of what most people think happens.
 
Stuff and nonsense! After the best part of 50 years riding ,I can honestly say thatv overall ,the techinical standard of riding is MUCH higher. Unfortunately there is also a down side. I learned horse bothering ,with lead rein rides around the local park ,progressing to flying solo on some fresh psychopathic welsh mountain pony. I learned little of the finner arts of horsemanship ,but a hell of a lot about survival .There wasnt even an outdoor school in the district. Today the average rider is far more dependant on the "school". It is a sort of "default "mode. He is fresh so I will only ride in the school .Hell no ! if he is fresh , drag him out and get the little ++++++ pavement pounding!
 
justabob said:
I can assure you that the animals of the 60s and 70s were bred to compete. Never read so much rubbish in all my life. Oh and by the way. ..it is conFORMation.
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Have to say that raised my eyebrows as well.

Also why on earth do people think that there is less turnout now?

TBH, except in the summer to save some money, the attitude back in the 70's was "why on earth would you turn out". It was seen as quite old fashioned.

I think the main change is people's expectations.
Just like everything else, our expectations have changed.
Before just as people lived without central heating, people lived with bloody awfully behaved ponies/horses.
There wasn't a choice, if it was yours you rode it, if you didn't then you didn't ride.

At the yard I was in in the seventies, mine and about 10 other ponies/horses would now be considered dangerous. But we rode them anyway, it was kind of expected that the pony/horse you bought would be badly behaved. So you either learnt or you didn't ride and got other people to ride for you.

I earnt quite a bit of pocket money riding ponies/horses that bucked, reared, bolted, stopped, napped, kicked, bit, and often all at once.

They had to be really, really bad to be sold.
 
NZJenny said:
I see far too many horses that are over fed (even if it is just grass) and under worked. Even if they are hacked out, they might just get walked for an hour, 'cos the rider is too scared to break into a trot.

The fitter they are, the more sensible they are, which is quite the opposite of what most people think happens.
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So true!
 
I have to agree that horses were bred to compete. Schools and surfaces were rare and the learning curve was steeper I think. Children fell off lots, and were swiftly replaced in the saddle, without any thought of health and safety. Riders learned an independent seat on flat saddles which didn't mask our inadequacies ( but I am grateful to be "bedded in" to my saddle nowadays!). I think we rode as many sharp animals then as now, but we upped the work level accordingly,and didn't treat it as a problem.
 
I also notice that horse ownership is becoming more of a 'fashion' these days. People who have no idea, never owned/ridden etc etc buy them because 'rescuing' is the 'done thing' and there are so many 'sad' ponies out there who need 'rescuing' into homes which have no clue.
 
The wife said:
But what do people think about the breeding side of things? Are our modern day horses being bred to be sharper perhaps? We are seeing more and more records being broken across the whole competitive sector from racing to dressage. A highly talented animal at the very top of its chain has to be sharper than say one lower down the ranks, especially if it is a stallion and likely to breed? I appreciate that it is commonly known that the mare passes on the majority of temperament but playing devils advocate here :)
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I do think there is something in that, although I would not say it's a "fault" in the horses. More people want and have access to the sort of horses they see professionals riding, without really understanding what that entails in terms of management, riding ability etc. It's only one factor amongst the many discussed, but I wouldn't dismiss it either. Horses for courses.

Of course horses were bred to compete 40 or 50 years ago. They were bred to compete 100 years ago! But there has been a RADICAL shift in breeding since AI and the international reach of the Continental studbooks, with emphasis on "refining". Like cars, horses aren't any more powerful now but many of them are more sensitive! Absolutely, people rode what was available but most of what was available was not 17hh and bred to jump a house
 
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justabob said:
I can assure you that the animals of the 60s and 70s were bred to compete. Never read so much rubbish in all my life. Oh and by the way. ..it is conFORMation.
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I think I was really lucky I spent a lot of time in the 60's and 70's watching show jumping, being able to watch riders who jumped internationally and their horses close up and I also groomed and worked showing quality animals. I was also lucky that the family that I worked for were interested in dressage when no one else seemed to be and we only had one or two international riders and was able to watch lectures about training 'normal' horses for dressage.
Some of the horses bred were produced then were for competition but a lot more were produced for the hunting field , and many of our top horses were freaks, bought from out of a farmers field and through the 80's it was all about producing horses like the Germans did with known bloodlines, graded on their progeny. Show jumping and eventing have changed and now speed and accuracy are more important than ever and I think the top riders have just about got what they wished for, we are producing some top competition horses but how many riders produced today are capable of riding them?
Oh, my spelling is rubbish but its doesn't mean my opinion is any less valid, I would just like to confirm that.
 
honetpot said:
I think I was really lucky I spent a lot of time in the 60's and 70's watching show jumping, being able to watch riders who jumped internationally and their horses close up and I also groomed and worked showing quality animals. I was also lucky that the family that I worked for were interested in dressage when no one else seemed to be and we only had one or two international riders and was able to watch lectures about training 'normal' horses for dressage.
Some of the horses bred were produced then were for competition but a lot more were produced for the hunting field , and many of our top horses were freaks, bought from out of a farmers field and through the 80's it was all about producing horses like the Germans did with known bloodlines, graded on their progeny. Show jumping and eventing have changed and now speed and accuracy are more important than ever and I think the top riders have just about got what they wished for, we are producing some top competition horses but how many riders produced today are capable of riding them?
Oh, my spelling is rubbish but its doesn't mean my opinion is any less valid, I would just like to confirm that.
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Valid point. However the over breeding of gyspy cobs, and pretty much any other 'fashionable' breed is rife now. So in the grand scheme of things, the ratio shouldn't be much different.
 
Moomince Pie said:
Valid point. However the over breeding of gyspy cobs, and pretty much any other 'fashionable' breed is rife now. So in the grand scheme of things, the ratio shouldn't be much different.
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True but I suspect the sort of people who come to riding later, when they finally have their own money to spend on horse ownership, will be drawn towards the "luxury goods" of more highly bred horses. Not every one, of course, but you can see how some might. Especially as they see other adults riding these horses without, perhaps, fully understanding that these people will have already done their time as children or young adults riding less turbo charged animals and having the sorts of experiences other people on this thread have referenced.

If a rider has limited knowledge and it still undergoing a steep learning curve, they are going to have a greater margin for error with an easy going type, happy to live out and not to complicated to deal with.

I actually agree with the people who say standards have NOT dropped. Generally the standard of education OVER ALL (as in not just for people with an agricultural background) and care are higher. BUT I would hazard a guess there are more people starting as adults, new to the sport, but possessing the wherewithal to get all the right gear, horse included, and be out hunting, competing etc almost immediately, where the rest of us see them. They are also all over the internet. ;) This has a way of skewing our perspective, particularly if we spend a lot of time reading accounts of people's problems, which is most of what people put on the internet!

I remember some pretty **** riding from when I was young, so I can't agree that everyone was better then. But I think maybe the ways in which people struggle are different now and we "see" so many more people struggling simply because we "see" more people.
 
TarrSteps said:
True but I suspect the sort of people who come to riding later, when they finally have their own money to spend on horse ownership, will be drawn towards the "luxury goods" of more highly bred horses. Not every one, of course, but you can see how some might. Especially as they see other adults riding these horses without, perhaps, fully understanding that these people will have already done their time as children or young adults riding less turbo charged animals and having the sorts of experiences other people on this thread have referenced.

If a rider has limited knowledge and it still undergoing a steep learning curve, they are going to have a greater margin for error with an easy going type, happy to live out and not to complicated to deal with.

I actually agree with the people who say standards have NOT dropped. Generally the standard of education OVER ALL (as in not just for people with an agricultural background) and care are higher. BUT I would hazard a guess there are more people starting as adults, new to the sport, but possessing the wherewithal to get all the right gear, horse included, and be out hunting, competing etc almost immediately, where the rest of us see them. They are also all over the internet. ;) This has a way of skewing our perspective, particularly if we spend a lot of time reading accounts of people's problems, which is most of what people put on the internet!

I remember some pretty **** riding from when I was young, so I can't agree that everyone was better then. But I think maybe the ways in which people struggle are different now and we "see" so many more people struggling simply because we "see" more people.
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I tend to disagree I'm afraid. Coming across numerous people owning a variety of different horses in different scenarios, I definately think that the basic general knowledge is just not there for many horse owners these days. For instance, some examples: MANY people not knowing what colic is, what causes it, if it's potentially serious, not knowing what basic tack is, not knowing 'basic' horse ailments. Oh, and the fab post I saw on a fb site of someone actually asking why their horse is coming in sweating each morning...rugged up.
 
Moomince Pie said:
I tend to disagree I'm afraid. Coming across numerous people owning a variety of different horses in different scenarios, I definately think that the basic general knowledge is just not there for many horse owners these days. For instance, some examples: MANY people not knowing what colic is, what causes it, if it's potentially serious, not knowing what basic tack is, not knowing 'basic' horse ailments. Oh, and the fab post I saw on a fb site of someone actually asking why their horse is coming in sweating each morning...rugged up.
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I don't know . . . I think a lot of people didn't know stuff in the past, we just didn't know they didn't know!

I WANT to agree with you - I am often taken aback by what basic skills and knowledge seems to be generally lacking. But then I remember I rode for a couple of years before I went to Pony Club and learned all sorts of basic skills and rules I'd previously never been exposed to. The difference is I was a teenager! It's 'okay' for a kid not to know those things. But if I'd started riding at 30 and it took me years to learn those things, that would seem much more unusual. As people mentioned I think we do have a higher proportion of novice adults now. They aren't 'worse' than beginners 30 years ago, just older! (And with the wherewithal to have their own horse, in many cases.)

It's a numbers game.

I'm stunned people who OWN their own horses don't know, for instance, how to tell if a horse has colic. . .but then I think back to the event horse that died of tetanus, the rubs and hair loss from poorly fitting saddles. . .and I'm not so sure everyone knows less!

I think there have always been good, educated horsemen and there still are. Then there are lots of people who know enough not to kill their horses, then a group below that . . . the biggest differences are probably that we are more aware of each other now and the groups don't look quite the same.
 
I think people are losing touch with nature as everything becomes more technical. This means that small problems aren't anticipated and then they grow. People are also more obsessed with controlling everything in their lives and can't cope or react appropriately when things don't happen how they wish.
 
I keep my horse pretty much the same as I kept my pony 30 years ago that is out during the day in at night and fed hay and a small amount of hard feed. Never had 24hr t/o never had horsey parents. I don't see massive changes in the way people ride. I remember bolting ponies being sent back and bucking broncos being got shot of. I remember some people not caring for their ponies properly some who kept them like kings. I don't think we rode them any more we still had to go to school all day or go to work. Nobody I know ever hunted regularly.

I've certainly seen some appalling teaching at RS when the main instruction was "kick" shouted in a schreechy voice but conversely I've seen some much better stuff taught like, getting the. horse onto the bit, leg-yielding, turn on the haunches etc. on some decent horses.

I think the amateur rider isn't particularly well-catered for breeding wise (I guess because there is no money in it) they seem to get the left-overs from competition such as ex-racers plus way more cheap (relatively) warm-bloods shipped in from the continent who haven't made the grade for top competition but come with that kind of brain or a range of mental and physical issues hence they have been sold cheaply. There are also way more gypsy cob types than there used to be that is a major difference and they can be quite strong and tank like and don't always make ideal rides imo especially as many are not given a good start in education.
 
I think there is a valid point about the lack of steady, sane, quality animals. Horses like my mare (IDxTB, sane, calm, capable old fashioned hunter type of normal height) are thin on the ground. The proof of this is the proliferation of threads from people who can't find nice all rounders for love or money.
These days it seems you have a choice of a coloured cob or a competition horse.

I also think there's a real issue with people's expectations. Avg riders want to be able to ride like Carl Hester when they haven't ever ridden a horse properly forwards (for instance) - regardless of whether it is 'on the bit'. Sadly that is also pretty common amongst the instructors who teach them also.
 
siennamum said:
I think there is a valid point about the lack of steady, sane, quality animals. Horses like my mare (IDxTB, sane, calm, capable old fashioned hunter type of normal height) are thin on the ground. The proof of this is the proliferation of threads from people who can't find nice all rounders for love or money.
These days it seems you have a choice of a coloured cob or a competition horse.

I quite agree about the difficulty in finding a safe, sane horse - i look on ads every day for one and 95% of them are 5 or younger, or a competition horse, or say 'not for novice'. As a (I think) responsible, fairly experienced older rider I know my limits and I would be perfectly happy with a sane coloured cob but can't find one! No wonder people end up being overhorsed, especially when you consider the potential for sellers not to be 100% truthful! It is a real problem.
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I think its a combination of

-riding schools changing the way they teach so riders are no longer as competent dealing with difficult situations. I learnt 30 yrs ago (blimey I'm old!) and we expected to fall off, knew how to tack up, could cope confidently if a stirrup snapped off while jumping etc

-management. The amount of horses who are stabled for 16hrs plus, ridden for half hour a few times a week and fed high energy feeds.

-the 'I want it all now' culture. Learning to ride then 6 months later buying a warm blood so u can go out and win dressage competitions.

- being able to buy cheap horses so easily. A good safe cob will cost you a few thousand in the SE - a flighty tb will cost you £300!
 
Just to add I've observed at my local riding school people being taught how to ride elementary dressage moves (badly!) who wouldn't be able to sit to a spook or hack a horse out competently. I guess the problem arises when they go off to buy their first horse!
 
It also doesn't help that the few decent riding schools are shutting down, the one on the top of my mind is Huntley. I can't find for the life of me somewhere else I would want to take my stage 3 locally now they are gone.
 
i think marketing of all these calmers has a big part to play. it seems like a 'great', 'quick fix' for some owners. although yes i have heard of a few people that swear by a certain calmer i use, i also knew someone who was always trying new calmers for her mare and expecting a different personality by the morning! i wouldn't want a horse who was 'wired' all the time, but a bit of sharpness is not unusual and doesn't phase me- i had a very feisty mare last thursday as she had just been full clipped and it was very windy!
agree with others about riding schools- many have just plods so you may learn the basics but not how to control horses with a bit more life. although my old riding school would put me on their new green or naughty ponies to give me a challenge!
management is a huge factors in horses behaviour
 
As an old codger (started riding in 1964) I have to agree with too much food and too little work.
It would seem these days 30 minutes in the school is considered sufficient exercise for a horse. People look at me like I have horns growing out of my head when after schooling for an hour (mix of flat and jump) I would then take the horse staright out for a hack of between 1 and 2 hours.
These days a sponsored ride is 10km, 30 years ago that wasn't even a normal hack. 25miles was more normal for a sponsored ride. As kids we would set off at 8am on our ponies wth a pack lunch and generally get home just before dark.
We'd hack to shows (further than most hack these days), then do a couple of SJ classes and perhaps a showing class in the morning. Hit the gymkana all aftenoon then hack home again. Compare that to driven to show and 1 or two rounds of low SJ then driven home again.
So yes, horses generally just aren't worked anywhere near enough these days. You only have to look on this and other forums where people ask what they need to do to get their horses fit for a BE90 / 100 as if it is some huge test of stamina. All horses should be fit enough without extra work to do a low level ODE.

But more than that I do see a very significant change to riding ability (not standard).
Whilst I think technical ability of riders these days is probably better than 30 years ago their ability to deal with anything a horse may throw at them is way way down. The biggest element to this is they lack a true FEEL for riding. They are taught horse does X then they should do Y. When Y doesn't work they are stumped.
Why is this feel missing. Many reasons I guess but the two that most readily spring to mind are people coming to riding much later in life when it is much harder to develop a natural feel and secondly the huge restrictions placed on riding schools and the style of instructing. Back in the 60's I rode anything and everything the instructor told me to. If the horse sacred me it wasn't a problem as i was way more scared of the instructor than any horse ever born. If I fell off I got thrown back on as long as I was conscious. Injuries were delt with after the lesson (unless life threatening). When not in lessons we would ride bare back using halters. Charging all over the place and jumping. You learnt to stay on and developed a feel for exactly what the horse underneath you was doing and how to deal with it. Mostly by experimenting.

All this has changed so not much point in wishing for the good old days. They will never return but perhaps people should be encouraged to experiment with their riding rather than following a set of rules.
Horses dont know the rules of riding so perhaps the riders need to throw ot the rule book and develop a feel for whats happening underneath them.
Riders need tools, not rules.
 
NZJenny said:
The fitter they are, the more sensible they are, which is quite the opposite of what most people think happens.
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To generalise, horses are really fairly simple creatures - keep their legs occupied and 99% of the time you keep their brains occupied. The reason my nerves are shot to pieces these days (aside from my advancing years) is not the big, fit hunters, eventers and endurance horses I used to ride, but the wide variety of 'leisure' horses I've ridden in recent years, most of which, to put it bluntly, are nuts in some shape or form. Whether it's lack of work, lack of a regular rider (owner) willing to deal with some small issue or a niggling physical issue that more work would show up and see being dealt with I don't know. But, either way, these are not horses that are generally a pleasure to ride, and there's always some caveat - "oh, he doesn't like this or he won't do that" - that I'd simply never heard before. Horses tended to go out without a fuss and do their jobs, but maybe not enough of them have a 'job' any more?
 
fburton said:
Let alone how to spell it! :wink3:

Interesting discussion.
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I know, the first time I heard the word 'Menage' I thought it was something to do with the French expression that involved three people :D (hastily adding its not my thing!)
Now it seems there are many horses that don't see the outside of one :confused:
 
I also think that people are going into buying horses earlier and earlier in their riding career. I know someone who has bought a horse- she can't do rising trot.

I think because horses can be got pretty cheap these days, and there are budget brands of everything these days, some people see it as "I could keep paying for lessons, or I could own my own for the same cost". They don't seem to realise that actually, lessons are pretty vital still even once you've bought your own- and even more so if you decide you are going to buy before you've even had many lessons!
 
PaddyMonty said:
or perhaps too many have the job of replacing the barbie doll.
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I think this is a big part of the problem. Exactly when did the horse go from being a working animal to a pet? By working I mean one which requires sufficient feed to maintain its condition and a minimum of work to keep it sane and fit for purpose (which is riding or driving).

And as for riding standards; having recently stumbled across a lesson in progress in a riding school I have to say I despair of anyone learning anything approaching actual riding/horsemanship (should go hand in hand) at a modern "pony rides" riding school. I am sure there are still good schools like the old Porlock Vale, but where are they?
 
I wonder how much the internet and cheap transport are contributing to the problem? It seems to me that in the past most people were obliged to buy a horse locally and thus it probably wasn't anything special and had some kind of reputation. Nowadays you can go anywhere in Europe, buy a horse and bring it home all for a reasonable price but with no idea of what it's really like.

Otherwise I suspect over-feeding, excessive rugging and under-exercising have a lot to answer for.
 
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