Are most ridden horses lame?

Been saying this for years. Horses not 'hopping ' lame but not sound, not tracking up, obviously uncomfortable. Competition
arenas are painful to watch at times. As for saddle fitting mmm spent squillions on xzxzcvxc saddle. Very nice but IT DOES NOT FIT YOUR HORSE!!!!! I despair. Daren't say anything you'd be shot at dawn!!
 
I see lameness in everything, so would agree - if I'm honest I don't think my horse has a full range of movement in one of his hocks/stifles! So yes, he probably is unlevel, but not to the extent it affects his work.

The thing is, almost all horses are asked to be athletes (a fast hack, or a course of jumps with someone on board is physically a lot of work, even just at riding club level) and as with people, not all horses are built to be athletes. So it's unsurprising that the majority aren't 100% correct in their movement. I also think it would be worse for these horses to be retired or destroyed for such subtle lameness, because most of them can still do everything, and movement is actually beneficial for lots of joint issues.

ETA: It's also an argument for breeding for good conformation, even if you only want a happy hack!
 
I would say there is a difference between being lame, unlevel, incorrectly balanced in the foot, unbalanced in ridden work, stiffness in body parts...all can make a horse look lame IMHO
 
Pigeon said:
I see lameness in everything, so would agree - if I'm honest I don't think my horse has a full range of movement in one of his hocks/stifles! So yes, he probably is unlevel, but not to the extent it affects his work.

The thing is, almost all horses are asked to be athletes (a fast hack, or a course of jumps with someone on board is physically a lot of work, even just at riding club level) and as with people, not all horses are built to be athletes. So it's unsurprising that the majority aren't 100% correct in their movement. I also think it would be worse for these horses to be retired or destroyed for such subtle lameness, because most of them can still do everything, and movement is actually beneficial for lots of joint issues.

ETA: It's also an argument for breeding for good conformation, even if you only want a happy hack!
Click to expand...

You make a very good point. However, it is very difficult to know how serious a problem of minor unsoundness is in a horse. To take an example, I had a horse here that had been competing intermediate BE and was sold on due to 'being overfaced'. ie. he started to refuse the jumps when asked to move on a level. So he became a pure dressage horse scoring into the 70s every time out at Novice and elementary. Then he started to skip in canter on the lunge, but under a good rider did not do this. He also swished his tail occasionally, but was still performing better than a lot of horses. His only other sign of being unsound was in walk where he didn't step under quite so far with his right hind as his left but in trot (which was magnificent) he looked completely sound. Thankfully for him, his owner loved him as a pet as well as a performance horse, because when I urged her to seek veterinary advice he was found to have arthritis of the neck, kissing spine, sacroiliac dysfunction and PSD. His owner retired him. How many people would have continued to compete and not even get the vet because the unsoundness seemed so minor and he was still performing very well? He obviously disguised his discomfort very well!
 
Last edited:
Spring Feather said:
Nothing like that % where I live. Hardly anyone shoes horses where I live though and most horses live out 24/7 so perhaps that's the reason why most horses are sound? Certainly all of the horses I've sold have all flown through their vettings and although I do occasionally see an unsound horse at other barns/shows I've noticed most of these horses are shod. Might be nothing, just something that I've personally picked up on.
Click to expand...

I agree, I think shoeing horses is bad for them long term and mucks their joints up. The concussion is terrible with them so of course its not going to do them any good. I wish they'd make those competition legal plastic shoes cheaper as I wish I could use those. Metal shoes IMO are totally outdated. I also agree keeping horses out is so much better for them, but then there's already proof on this - its better for them physically and mentally to be out moving about, they were never designed to stand about in stables.
 
What I don't understand is how people don't feel it. Lame horses feel rubbish and resistant (unless its absolutely equal bilaterally, and even then they normally feel rubbish and resistant its just harder to feel or see why). I wouldn't say 80% are lame but at least 80%, and probably closer to 100%, must have flaws if you go looking around inside with scans and x-rays but they won't all have affected gaits. I do see lots of people riding around on unsound horses and think "how can't you feel how uncomfortable that horse looks?" I dunno, but lameness stuff intrigues me.
 
Last edited:
Wagtail said:
It's all very weird, SF. Something must be better where you are to make horses generally more sound, but I just cannot believe it is fitting them with 'one size fits all' saddles. Are they English or western saddles? Maybe that is the difference? Or maybe it is the type of work they do and the fact that they are not couped up in stables for so many hours, if at all? I would think that this alone would have a beneficial effect.
Click to expand...
English and western saddles. It doesn't seem to make any difference tbh, people have one saddle and ride everything in that one saddle. The turnout is probably a big part of it as is ... \/ \/

Pigeon said:
ETA: It's also an argument for breeding for good conformation, even if you only want a happy hack!
Click to expand...
All of my AQHA/APHA horses are strongly related. I only buy certain bloodlines. So you could be on to something there. In the western world over here, everyone buys registered stock. Many know the bloodlines they like and have had success with so they tend to stick to those lines. In the English world it's fairly similar with the friends I know, in that they like certain bloodlines. Bloodlines are quite seriously taken into account here, whereas they just aren't in England. I don't know how many times on this forum alone I've seen someone write what do the bloodlines matter if it's a gelding *bangs head* well if that is the general thought on buying horses in the UK then it kind of makes sense that each horse will be hit or miss as either they don't know the breeding of the horses or they don't have enough knowledge to find out what characteristics are typical of certain lines. I'm a huge bloodline follower of my chosen breeds and yes of course my geldings also have my preferred lines.
 
My lami horse is "lame" on his right fore......for the first 20 minutes of work then once he has had a canter after his warm up he feels and looks fine.

He is 18, knees his door with his right fore (ooohhhh I rhymed) and is worse in winter.....summer unless he honed around on the hard ground in his field he is up for anything in winter I can feel him being short until he is warmed up so he has half a danilon morning and night in winter. It helps and he is still foreward going.

My old mare is 23 and short on her hocks as she has djd

Wb is retired due to KS

Our ex-racer is the soundest horse on the yard, even after having his leg slashed open back in spring. Vet even commented that his hocks do not look like a TB who has done 81 races (had to have a x-ray once his leg had healed to make sure no damage) he has been a little short on that leg coming back into work but lots of just gentle hacking to strengthen him back up again and he is tracking up perfectly again.


I think a lot of lameness/shortness/unlevelness in horses can be down to the way they are ridden and schooled in this modern age. I see a lot of people, not just younger riders, not warm up/down properly, ask too much too soon or expect their horse to move outside of its natural gait, or not looking at how their horse is put to gether.

Take me Lami for example if he has to have time off for what ever reason I need to do at leas two weeks for straight lines on walk/trot and work on transitions to be able to work comfortably in the school, if I just go back in there he struggles. He isn't the most best put together horse but we didn't buy him for conformation, he was brought for his personality and he will do what we ask of him willingly if we respect his ability.

Its been the same bringing the TB back into work, a lot of people where asking if we were going to lunge him for a week then go in the school. If we did that his back would be ruined. He has been gently hacked and then asked for more out hacking, working from behind in a nice easy forward going rhythm in all gaits then he would come into a outline from that, then asking for some flexion/leg yielding round patched of grass.......all this is building him up for school work. My sister is 22 and takes his coming back into work very seriously.


Taking everything back to basic's seems to be a fading art.......don't get me started on 4 year olds working "properly" before they are even grown
 
Spring Feather just wondering what work your young horses do when started? The 'old' way was to hack and hack and then hack some more. Therefore building up muscle and fitness in straight lines on various surfaces. Have now seen so many youngsters being backed in the school and staying there. So an artificial surface and always turning.

My rising five and six year olds were backed and hacked (oh look rhyming again!). A few people thought we were nuts that thier first canters were done inopen fields 'what if they bolted/took off?' My answer was that we set them up for success. They knew the aids to stop and they had a steady companion as an example.

The very experienced back lady who saw the younger one was pleased and very impressed at his even muscle tone. Saddle was not 'professionally' fitted. Just common sense. He didnt see a school until he had been hacking for three months!
 
LilMissy said:
Spring Feather just wondering what work your young horses do when started? The 'old' way was to hack and hack and then hack some more. Therefore building up muscle and fitness in straight lines on various surfaces. Have now seen so many youngsters being backed in the school and staying there. So an artificial surface and always turning.

My rising five and six year olds were backed and hacked (oh look rhyming again!). A few people thought we were nuts that thier first canters were done inopen fields 'what if they bolted/took off?' My answer was that we set them up for success. They knew the aids to stop and they had a steady companion as an example.

The very experienced back lady who saw the younger one was pleased and very impressed at his even muscle tone. Saddle was not 'professionally' fitted. Just common sense. He didnt see a school until he had been hacking for three months!
Click to expand...

I completely agree with all the above.
It amazes me the amount of folk that buy a youngster and have no patience in trying to reach their goal in an unnatural time period. Horses with little turnout, lunging for fitness, constantly schooled in restrictive areas are of course going to be far more susceptable to back, leg and all manner of other injuries.
My vet would probably kiss you on both cheeks LilMissy ;) He is so experienced in equines and after having a 'top' trainer advise me that before I backed my youngster I had to lunge for at least six weeks to build his topline, my vet was appalled. His words were -Do not under any circumstances lunge that horse, you will do far more damage than good, five minutes for training purposes and that is it :mad: - I basically knew that anyway which is why I questioned him.
Degenerative damage on the other hand is different, that is natural wear and tear and we all suffer it to different degrees. I have it in my spine but as my physio said so has he, its called getting older and horses are no different.
It would be interesting to see a survey on percentages of unsound horses in different groups depending on exercise regime and turnout.
 
LilMissy said:
Spring Feather just wondering what work your young horses do when started? The 'old' way was to hack and hack and then hack some more. Therefore building up muscle and fitness in straight lines on various surfaces. Have now seen so many youngsters being backed in the school and staying there. So an artificial surface and always turning.
Click to expand...
Mine are initially started for about an hour in the arena for the first day, maybe two or three days if we have a particularly thick horse just to make sure we directional and start/stop sorted and then they go out on the trails. They trail and trail and trail and trail for months and months 2 or 3 times a week. Mostly at walk but with the odd trot and canter on each ride. Within the first week they will have been through rivers, be pretty non-spooked up in the forest, been ridden along some quiet lanes, passed cattle, pigs and other horses. Met loads of farm dogs and of course farm machinery which all of mine are used to anyway so combines and huge sprayers never bother them.

I don't tend to do any arena work at all with my youngsters (apart from the first day they are backed) until they are around 5 years old and by that age they will have met pretty much every single thing imaginable and be unfazed by them. Mine may also have worked cattle depending on which breed of the youngsters we're talking about. We do the same backing regime with the WBs as we do the AQHAs, so again, minimal arena work and then get them out into the big wide world as soon as is safely possible.

None of my horses do lunging work. I may free school them in the round pen immediately prior to backing, but only once or twice and then we move on. I do not believe in lunging horses tbh; it's just not something that I'd ever do as a matter of course with any of mine.
 
Interesting thread.

I don't think it's that 80% are lame, it's that 80% are not perfectly sound. Slightly different way of looking at it.

Being heavily involved in a fair few sports in my time, playing regional squad basketball, having trialled for my national u16 basketball team and played for uni, and having coxed rowers at I2 level (so level 3 of six affiliated levels, with Elite being top and the level for international rowers etc), where we take our sport seriously and consider ourselves athletes but are no where near top level (so the equivalent of high RC level or to Novice eventing say) - all of us have our weaknesses. For me, my right ankle has less spring, so in basketball my left was my pivot foot. One of my rowing crew was tight through his ribs so had to be very careful warming up to avoid stress fractures - me, I had a tight right hip so had to make sure I didn't draw and finish unevenly. This didn't stop us progressing as athletes, but we had to be aware of these flaws and properly warm up, gently exercise our weak areas but not to breaking point. I feel this is the case with most horses - they all have their weak points, some worse than others - doesn't stop them being athletes and pushing their bodies, some will succeed despite their weak areas as they are properly managed and brought on, others will break down, others will never play more than friendly matches but their bodies will cope with that. Ultimately horses carrying people are athletes, the way any of us playing sport is, but the level we push ourselves to varies as much as our sore and achy bits do.

I agree re: hacking and backing - that's what I do. The better managed they are both at the start and through their ridden career the better they'll last, but it won't stop odd aches and unevenesses which could be classed as very minor lamenesses.
 
The steady (mainly at walk) hacking/trail work for starters makes such sense to me. I read of young horses schooled X times a week and even jumping in a couple of months and I cringe tbh. How have they gained the strength and balance to be able to carry a lump/weight and work hard so soon? Oh yes, many will be 'put' into a outline! OK, I am not the most experienced or best horse person but Gah!
 
khalswitz said:
Interesting thread.

I don't think it's that 80% are lame, it's that 80% are not perfectly sound. Slightly different way of looking at it.

Being heavily involved in a fair few sports in my time, playing regional squad basketball, having trialled for my national u16 basketball team and played for uni, and having coxed rowers at I2 level (so level 3 of six affiliated levels, with Elite being top and the level for international rowers etc), where we take our sport seriously and consider ourselves athletes but are no where near top level (so the equivalent of high RC level or to Novice eventing say) - all of us have our weaknesses. For me, my right ankle has less spring, so in basketball my left was my pivot foot. One of my rowing crew was tight through his ribs so had to be very careful warming up to avoid stress fractures - me, I had a tight right hip so had to make sure I didn't draw and finish unevenly. This didn't stop us progressing as athletes, but we had to be aware of these flaws and properly warm up, gently exercise our weak areas but not to breaking point. I feel this is the case with most horses - they all have their weak points, some worse than others - doesn't stop them being athletes and pushing their bodies, some will succeed despite their weak areas as they are properly managed and brought on, others will break down, others will never play more than friendly matches but their bodies will cope with that. Ultimately horses carrying people are athletes, the way any of us playing sport is, but the level we push ourselves to varies as much as our sore and achy bits do.

I agree re: hacking and backing - that's what I do. The better managed they are both at the start and through their ridden career the better they'll last, but it won't stop odd aches and unevenesses which could be classed as very minor lamenesses.
Click to expand...

You make some very good points. But how do we as owners distinguish between something that is serious and needing veterinary treatment, and that which is minor and only requiring rest or physio? When depending on how stoic the horse is, they can present the same? Do we always call out a vet (as I usually do if a problem is persistent)? But more often than not it results in expensive investigations and no real cause is found.
 
khalswitz said:
Interesting thread.

I don't think it's that 80% are lame, it's that 80% are not perfectly sound. Slightly different way of looking at it.

Being heavily involved in a fair few sports in my time, playing regional squad basketball, having trialled for my national u16 basketball team and played for uni, and having coxed rowers at I2 level (so level 3 of six affiliated levels, with Elite being top and the level for international rowers etc), where we take our sport seriously and consider ourselves athletes but are no where near top level (so the equivalent of high RC level or to Novice eventing say) - all of us have our weaknesses. For me, my right ankle has less spring, so in basketball my left was my pivot foot. One of my rowing crew was tight through his ribs so had to be very careful warming up to avoid stress fractures - me, I had a tight right hip so had to make sure I didn't draw and finish unevenly. This didn't stop us progressing as athletes, but we had to be aware of these flaws and properly warm up, gently exercise our weak areas but not to breaking point. I feel this is the case with most horses - they all have their weak points, some worse than others - doesn't stop them being athletes and pushing their bodies, some will succeed despite their weak areas as they are properly managed and brought on, others will break down, others will never play more than friendly matches but their bodies will cope with that. Ultimately horses carrying people are athletes, the way any of us playing sport is, but the level we push ourselves to varies as much as our sore and achy bits do.
Click to expand...

Yes, but horses don't push their own bodies, we push them! We are the ones deciding if a horse has a weakness or being a pain/lazy or whatever... that gives us a huge responsibility to err on the side of caution/horse imho.
 
Last edited:
I think that proper conditioning/fittening seems to be a rarity nowadays, and I'm sure that's why horses aren't as sound as they used to be. I've been rehabbing my horse after PSD, which has involved 10 weeks of hacking in walk on the roads - and everyone I've spoken to has been surprised at how long I've been walking, and commented on how dull and tedious it must be. It doesn't bother me in the slightest - I look on it as an investment in his future soundness. He saw the physio a few weeks ago, and she was pleasantly surprised at how toned he was, despite not doing anything but walk - she sees a lot of very weak horses who are out competing.
Twenty years ago - no-one would have thought it was abnormal - even sound horses did a lot of walking to "harden" their legs when coming back into work. I see so many people doing two weeks "fittening" after a break, and then cracking on as normal. Also see so many people who take cold horses into the school, do two circuits in walk and trot, then start jumping/lateral work.
I think there is an epidemic of less educated horse owners, who simply don't know that it takes a lot of dull and tedious slow stuff to get a horse fit to do the job they want it to do, without breaking.
 
Auslander said:
I think that proper conditioning/fittening seems to be a rarity nowadays, and I'm sure that's why horses aren't as sound as they used to be. I've been rehabbing my horse after PSD, which has involved 10 weeks of hacking in walk on the roads - and everyone I've spoken to has been surprised at how long I've been walking, and commented on how dull and tedious it must be. It doesn't bother me in the slightest - I look on it as an investment in his future soundness. He saw the physio a few weeks ago, and she was pleasantly surprised at how toned he was, despite not doing anything but walk - she sees a lot of very weak horses who are out competing.
Twenty years ago - no-one would have thought it was abnormal - even sound horses did a lot of walking to "harden" their legs when coming back into work. I see so many people doing two weeks "fittening" after a break, and then cracking on as normal. Also see so many people who take cold horses into the school, do two circuits in walk and trot, then start jumping/lateral work.
I think there is an epidemic of less educated horse owners, who simply don't know that it takes a lot of dull and tedious slow stuff to get a horse fit to do the job they want it to do, without breaking.
Click to expand...

I totally agree, I think this is by far the biggest reason why so many horses are lame.

The other thing to consider is that horses are expected to live, and work, longer. Many of these older horses are lame and would previously have been retired or PTS. In the past an old favourite may have been kept as a pet when it could no longer do the job. These days many horses are sold or given away as "light hacks" or "companions". IMO both those terms are another word for "lame".
 
Yes, I was taught (and this is not *that* long ago, albeit in a different country) that trail riding and a proper warm up and cool down was fundamental to your horse's fitness and well being. I usually do a 15-20 minute hack on a long rein after a schooling session and go out on longer hacks two times per week (on average). In the summer, we go on gallops on fields and play about over the little cross-country course but that's not an option at this time of year. :( The trainers I had as a kid would have made you regret even thinking that you could work your horse without a proper warm up and cool down.

Any good human athlete will tell you that cross-training is important to fitness and staying injury-free. Working the same muscles in the same way, every single day that you train, on the other hand, is asking for trouble. I think we should treat our horses in the same way. A lot of people don't.
 
Interesting thread, and I agree with the 80% not totally sound, rather than 80% lame. There was a thread years ago on the Competitions where the father was a vet and went to a ODE, only for the father to say in a embarassingly loud voice "that horse is lame" at nearly every competitor.

I have seen competitors in the collecting ring and wondered if they knew their horse wasn't "right" - or did they always go like that? We had a talk from a vet years ago about back problems, but he ended up by saying I don't want you all to rush home and look at your horses and think that they can't work again, they may well have a problem, but they can still have a good working life.

One lady I used to ride with was very worried about my horse, as there is definitely something not quite right about the action of one of his hind legs. He is sound, he passes the vet, but there is something not quite 100%, and in high level dressage it would be quickly found out as he has difficulty in being "straight."
So a dressage person might say that he is not 100% - which he isn't - but that doesn't mean that he can't do quite a lot of hard work satisfactorily and isn't lame.
 
Also, just wanted to add about the "walk to canter" bit. I was at an RC team dressage competition once and noticed that one horse came straght off the lorry and into the collecting ring, without a warm up, as one of our team remarked upon it. We watched doing an OK test, until the last movement which was a 10 metre half circle onto the centre line - and it was definitely lame as it circled. So that is why it didnit have a warm-up!
 
I disagree a little with walk to canter being a cover up, my oldie warms up much better walk then canter then trot, seem to recall it's less stressful on joints to canter than to trot. So I let him canter first before I do any trotting, he almost certainly falls into the not quite sound category but I don't canter first to cover that up - I canter to help him as much as I can.
 
Walk to canter CAN be a cover-up, it doesn't mean that everyone who does it has a problem.

On more than one horse that had trouble learning the canter aids, doing walk to canter helped them to understand, and in one showing class that I do, we have to do walk to canter.
 
We all have a favourite side and horses are no different. They pick the leading leg without thinking and if worked consistently on both sides of the body the unevenness should balance out. Now I would not call that lame, one side is weaker by nature or development, when you add the extra weight of the rider wobbling about on top the animal will become more bridle lame on the weak side. I have an old pony who have spent most of his life teaching young children to ride, he favours one diagonal so the kids not knowing any better always rise on that diagonal making the difference worse. When he was ridden constantly on both diagonals the difference was less, but he still had his weaker diagonal.
Saying all horses are lame is a bit like saying people are disabled because we are either left or right handed, the hand we use less will always be weaker and less developed. People cope will levels of physical impairment but would never be class as disabled as they are able have a normal range of movement and it does not impair their daily living but would not be able to compete at the higher levels in some sports. For a top dressage horse even regular paces are a must so perhaps for some dressage riders a normal horse would look lame.
 
My 17 y/o horse is slightly unlevel but my vet is happy for him to continue going out galloping/jumping whatever I want to do, and so am I, he will tell me when he wants to quit, and the way he still tanks off full of life I can't see that he's in pain! He will also fail a flexion test, but then again so would I, I'm only 23 but hobble around when I first get up in the morning before I've walked around a bit so I can't expect my horse to be 100% sound from the off!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top