Are my yard rules too much?

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GGRider

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We have been running our own livery for 16 months now and are learning to bring in some rules as and when issues or problems arise. We want to be very professional and fair so what do you think?
We do not allow any uninsured, unregistered freelancers (grooms etc) on the yard
We are thinking of not allowing our indoor arena to be hired out to anyone wanting to bring in their own instructor as I am a BHS registered very experienced instructor myself. Does this seem unreasonable? Our analogy is that you would not be able to turn up to a restaurant and bring your own chef so why should other people make their living off the back of my business and facilities. What do you think? Thanks.
 
I haven't voted because neither apply!! I think it's unreasonable to not allow your arena to be hired out to other trainers - the yards we were at previously charged a fee to cover the hire if we used a visiting instructor. I personally think that visiting instructors are a great idea cos no one knows everything and you can often pick up tips if you're watching.

Just my view though
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I wouldn't agree that peopel cant bring their own instructor tbh....they presumably pay for the school in their livery??

You can offer your services, but people may want a particular person to train them?

I also dont understand what you mean about 'freelancers'? Do you mean people cant get someone else to do their horse for them??
 
I can't say yes or no on your poll - there are so many grey areas.

How would you feel as a rider if the only instructor available was somebody that you really couldn't 'connect' with? I have not had many lessons in recent years, but have watched many - some of those instructors I couldn't spend more than 5 minutes with, others are fabulous - but the instructors I like might be no good for somebody else.

I agree with the 'no freelance grooms' rules, you are in business to make money for yourselves .

However, do you have existing clients and how will they feel about the goal posts moving?
 
By uninsured/unregistered freelancers do you also bring into that DIY'ers helping each other out rather than pay you for services? If yes I can understand but would be livid if I was a DIY person who had moved to your yard and had the goal posts changed.

As for external instructors - I don't think it is entirely unreasonable to charge extra for use of school but is unreasonable to ban them completely. What if a livery didn't agree with your teaching style and wanted someone else?
 
I can understand your point of view about the insurance, although where does this leave someone who asks a friend to do their horse as a favour?

I think the instructor issue is unreasonable if you're meaning you won't let your liveries bring in their own teacher. No matter how good or experienced a teacher you are the simple fact is that no one teacher suits everyone, it's a very personal relationship. Also some peple want very specialised training for particular discipline & may prefer to use a teacher who specialises in that discipline eg a BD trainer. If, however, you mean you won't let non-liveries hire the arena & bring in outside instructors then that's different, though I would have thought the money for the arena hire was better than nothing.
 
I think moving the goalposts will be your problem, if you currently allow outside instructors your going to loose liveries over it!! outside help wise if it would mean you couldn't have unqualified people helping you out I would be so mad, friends have come to my aid so many times.

My yard is a Riding school/Livery yard so we have no outside instructors, but we knew this when we came on livery and have the option of 4 instructors not just one.
 
As a livery i would accept the not allowing uninsured instructors and grooms, however my instructor is very experienced fully insured and i have used her since i 1st bought my horse 8 years ago and i wouldnt be impressed at having to swap instructors.
The old yard i was at did however charge for exclusive use of the school if you used an outside instructor which i thought was fair enough.
 
Fair enough about the insurance and not having unqualified people.
I can understand your reasoning but not being allowed to have my instructor would put me off your yard. I wouldn't mind paying for hiring the school to have exclusive use during my lessons.
My reasons are two fold. Firstly I've been using my trainer for about 12 years she knows me and my horses inside out and I trust her completely it's a relationship I would never consider sacrificing. Secondly I wouldn't feel entirely comfortable having my instructor watch me ride ALL the time (presumably you are always on the yard) sometimes it is better to get on with things yourself.
From your point of view I would imagine that having everybody as your client would mean you'd get a lot of "can you just help me with this..." which could be a pain. Also I guess you have a specific area you are most comfortable with and if you ban people from bring instructors can you provide high quality instruction in every discipline? For example my instructor has evented to 4* and PSG dressage - great for me as I try to be an eventer, but she'd be the first to hold her hands up and say she is no Show Jumper. In fact there are times she's actively told me to try a lesson with a SJ as they'd be in a better position to help me with a particular problem - one of the reasons I like her so much, she puts my progression first.
Just my opinion - good luck.
 
I didn't vote either, for reasons already given by others.

I do agree that liveries shouldn't be able to bring in their own grooms etc - it's what presumably you and your staff are there for. For instance, I am on DIY livery but if I need my pony doing for me for any reason, then the yard manager arranges this. I wouldn't be able to ask another livery to do him for me. I think that is reasonable - it's a business after all.

As for the instructor thing - I think you're wrong. Is use of the arena included in your livery? If so, then I would add something to say that if they want another instructor they must pay £x for school hire. Or if they use you for instruction then they don't pay extra for the arena.

My daughter has lessons from 2 different people. One for flatwork and one for SJ/XC. Luckily I don't have to pay any extra to use the arena on our yard, but I don't think it would be unreasonable if they did charge - having said that of course, there is not an 'on site' instructor anyway!
 
I wouldn't want to be constrained to just one instructor so would not be happy with that rule. However good you are you won't suit every rider.

Am a bit unclear what you mean on the freelance question? Could I not get a mate to turn out my horse if I wanted a lie in? (may have misunderstood this one!)
 
I can understand where you're coming from re the uninsured people but i think we all rely on friends etc to help us out and that would be a problem for me. If it's the insureance side you're worried about can you not get you're liveries to sign a disclaimer meaning you aren't responsible for their actions on your yard? That's what we have at our yard.

I also understand your point re instructors but i'm afriad i wouldnt keep my horse somewhere i couldnt choose who trained me. You will probably find that a lot of people on the yard will use you anyway. My YOs daughter is an instructor and teaches all of our yard (she happens to be one of my best friends and very good at what she does so i's have her where ever i was) but a lot of people like the added convenience as it's easier to organise lesons etc. I think it'd be fairer to allow them to have who they like but charge for exclusive use of the school
 
You say you are a very experienced BHS instructor yourself, so what are you, an I? A Fellow? TBH there are very few AIs I would bother to have lessons fromand they MUST have ridden to a standard way above my own, and have years of form. The people I actually think teach best have no BHS qualifications themselves at all. Charge £10 for use of the school by all means.

No freelancers on the yard, agreed, I actually think this is a very sensible precaution.
 
Like most of the others I would never move to a yard where I could not bring in my own instructor. My horse is working advanced medium and I need someone who has ridden and trained horses and riders up to GP level. Even if you yourself have, there are so many variables to getting an instructor you click with and that teaches using methods you like.

Fair enough re un-insured grooms if you offer services to DIY peeps, but I would be livid if for example you banned my boyfriend from doing my horse if I was sick etc.
 
Personally I think it's a little bit nit-picky, re the outside instructors - what if a client at your yard asked a friend to come and help her with her horse's schooling problems.

There are so many grey areas I think it is more hassle than it's worth, I understand your a business but there are so many ways to get round those rules there is no point in having them, unless you totally ban anyone other than the solde owner of the horse from looking after him and insist everyone is taught by you - I think that is slightly Hitler-ish
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I didn't want to call you a Hitler, lol! But I did vote yes. Simply because of the instruction rule. Using the analogy of a restaurant is not accurate - I go to the restaurant for the food. I do not put my horse at a livery for the instruction - I put him for the facilities, turnout, stabling and a whole host of other reasons. You are probably a terrific instructor - but you may not suit everyone. Also some people (like me) have an instructor who's worth her weight in gold. My livery tried this on - we all threatened to walk (in the main, those of us who use my fab instructor) and YM had to back down.
 
I wouldn't go on a yard with those rules. Livery rent pays for safe stabling, turnout and facilities. How my horses are trained and looked after is my affair, not the YOs.
 
I didn't vote either as I certainly would not come to a yard where you cant choose who trains you. no we would not bring our own chef but we would go to a restaurant we liked !!! You may be experienced but every one to there own and there are plenty other yards who allow other trainers.
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Hi - original poster here. Should clarify. Our liveries can bring in outside qualified/insured instructors but we think maybe we would rather not hire out the indoor to private individuals who then bring in any tom, dick or harry to teach who may do odd or dangerous things on our property. We would like to organise clinics ourselves with our well known local BHS reg instructors and offer this open to all. Does that sound reasonable? Appreciate all the feedback as want to see the issue from both sides fairly. Thanks all.
 
Ahhhh......lol.......

If you are hiring the school out to 'outsiders' you can have whatever rules you want really!! You just might get less people hiring it thats all.

Clinics are a good idea.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't go on a yard with those rules. Livery rent pays for safe stabling, turnout and facilities. How my horses are trained and looked after is my affair, not the YOs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree. I do not pay to keep my horses at livery so that the YO has assured tutees at her fingertips. I pay to keep my horses somewhere with good hacking and excellent facilities with a YO who doesn't see it as her business to dictate to me whom I am allowed to receive instruction from.

Like others here, there are many instructors down the years that I have just not connected with and if being at your yard meant I couldn't have lessons unless you were delivering them, I may as well pay less to be somewhere without a school!

So I voted 'Yes - you little Hitler!' but I do think calling you a Hitler is very strong! I just think you need to maybe encourage people to use you by touting your services, but allow them to use an instructor they've been using for the last 10 years if they wish.
 
Erm I see your point from a different angle. Liveries do pay for a safe stable, turn out & facilities. That is the point you are missing. Consider that the 'friend' that turns up to do your horse on the cheap has
1. No Insurance.
2. No real knowledge of the yard rules, especially fire procedure.
3. Often doesnt bother to ensure a field gate is closed (usually on mobile phone whilst leading friends horse from field) Then who is responsible?
4. Upsets other liveries by using someone elses belongings.
5. Doesnt tie haybag up securely & horse gets leg stuck !
6. Uses wrong feed (belongs to someone else)
7. Puts horse into wrong field. Other horse gets injured. etc. etc
The list is endless. Yes I am a YO. As such, I DO have full insurance. Anyone that is not immediate family of the horse owner is not allowed by law to perform any task whatsoever. Disclaimers are not worth the paper they are written on.
Food for thought maybe?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hi - original poster here. Should clarify. Our liveries can bring in outside qualified/insured instructors but we think maybe we would rather not hire out the indoor to private individuals who then bring in any tom, dick or harry to teach who may do odd or dangerous things on our property. We would like to organise clinics ourselves with our well known local BHS reg instructors and offer this open to all. Does that sound reasonable? Appreciate all the feedback as want to see the issue from both sides fairly. Thanks all.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is different, then; however, saying that, if I was paying to hire your school, say £10 for an hour, I would not want to be told who can teach me. I would be paying to hire the school and why is it any different to you if an individual brings someone to coach them as oppose to coming on their own?
 
I agree with you. Outside Instructors that can prove they have full Insurance can give lessons at my yard for a sole use fee only. If someone else is using the arena at the same time & an accident happens. I guarantee it will be the YO's fault. Risk assesments are a necessary evil unfortunately.
 
In which case, I'd change my vote
I would want to have a friend help to do my horses if I could not g et there or when I was on hols, unless you offer a good DIY-ers top up service.
For instructors, I would expect to be able to bring in my trainers for lesson or to school my horses, as they are insured professionals and who would follow any of your H&S guidelines, but are specialists in the disciplines we compete in.
 
[ QUOTE ]
we would rather not hire out the indoor to private individuals who then bring in any tom, dick or harry to teach who may do odd or dangerous things on our property.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to poke the fire, but why would you do that anyway? At my yard, we are allowed our own instructors (I have 2 - 1 flat, 1 jumping) but there is no way any person can turn up with their horse & use the school! That is ridiculous!

If you were to hold clinics for say a riding club, then surely it is your responsibility to organise insurance and such the like?

Also, let's be honest here, nearly all of use are so precious about our horses (me included!) that I would not have anyone do anything to my horse if they can't even shut a bloody gate!!

I have to say that I don't really understand what you are asking...!
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Oh fair dos then - wouldn't argue with that. I suppose you could have an approved list of instructors or maybe just be 'busy' when certain people ring up to book?
Although the people I see being the most dangerous are the Know Nothings who boss about people even more clueless than themselves without it being a proper lesson. I'm sure we've all seen them at shows handing out 'advice'. I'm not suer how you'd stop people coming with a support group of these helpful individuals.
 
ahh okay so you dont want someone who is not a livery payer to rent the school and then bring in an instructor?

see thats different as i guess everyone thought you meant no instructors bar yourself for anyone.

In a way i see whaere you are coming from but providing the instructor has the relavent liabilty insurance then whats the issue afterall it is extra income.

If you are still worried about the prospect of taking away from your own income as an istructor then why not set times for outside instructors to teach and then charge a slight premium over the standard school hire fee ?
 
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