Are self employed people entitled to minimum wage?

they are not entitled to it. they get paid what they earn even if its only 50p an hour. its then up to them if they want to close down their business or try to grow it. I think for benefit purposes eg working tax credits they are classed as if they are earning basic wage otherwise people would be ripping off the system.
 
If you are self employed you charge what you feel appropriate. If you don't charge yourself out above minimum wage that is your look out! I'm amazed at how many people who think they can get a freelance groom for less than minimum wage.
 
I had a weekly wage at my last groom job, with the amount of hours I did I ended up on roughly £3.50 an hour. I do my job because I love it but I need to afford to live!
 
I work with horses too, and am an employee with paid holiday and all the rest and get way more than minimum wage. Its all about negotiating. When I have freelanced it works out to at least £10 an hour plus travel. Employers will chance their arm if they think they can get away with it. My friends daughter is just beginning to learn that lesson!
 
There's a livery yard near us where the person that runs it insists her grooms are self employed for exactly that reason, so she can pay them less than min wage....its day
light robbery and downright unethical but she's got away with it for years....
 
Frumpoon said:
There's a livery yard near us where the person that runs it insists her grooms are self employed for exactly that reason, so she can pay them less than min wage....its day
light robbery and downright unethical but she's got away with it for years....
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and has had a series of incompetent and uninsured people people on site ............ usually such people are claiming to be unemployed and claiming benefit.,
 
I know a few people who try to do this. If you employ someone full time, and tell them what to do, and what they will be paid they are employees. I hate seeing people doing this, it is breaking the law, and it is dreadful that this is still happening in this day and age. It doesn't mean that they are incompetent though, just misled, and under paid!
 
zaminda said:
I know a few people who try to do this. If you employ someone full time, and tell them what to do, and what they will be paid they are employees. I hate seeing people doing this, it is breaking the law, and it is dreadful that this is still happening in this day and age. It doesn't mean that they are incompetent though, just misled, and under paid!
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Anyone who was competent would not need to accept such work.
They could not be "misled" if they were competent.
Being self employed is an expensive undertaking.
 
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Unethical employers need to be very careful these days as all it takes is for someone to report these dubious activities to H.M. Revenue and Customs who would on investigation be able to demonstrate that the employees should have been employed and take the employer to the cleaners. The employer will end up having to re-pay the tax and national insurance contributions as well as the salaries.
 
I know a few younger people who are very capable with horses who have discovered on leaving a job that no tax has been paid on their behalf. Younger staff are also often happy to have a job with horses, and often think they are getting a good deal, as they have never been in the working world. My blood boils every time there is something in the equestrian press about why they can't get staff. I look forward to the day HMRC looks into a lot of these yards!
 
you need to charge yourself out at more than minimum wage if self employed-to cover for sick, holiday pay and insurance etc.I was charging £10ph 10 years ago and paying a chap £15ph two years ago-quite rightly too.
 
Frumpoon said:
There's a livery yard near us where the person that runs it insists her grooms are self employed for exactly that reason, so she can pay them less than min wage....its day
light robbery and downright unethical but she's got away with it for years....
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This is illegal. HMRC will consider the grooms as employed.
It's not within the YO's gift to avoid her responsibility / duty to pay the minimum wage, the employers NI contribution or tax. This is what is happening here and this livery yard owner is cheating us all, and cheating her staff the most.
I wouldnt mind HMRC casting an eye over her business dealings as well.
 
Even if you only have one employee now, they have to be enrolled in a pension scheme. To say that people are "self employed" was always a nice get-out for an employer, but it is really being tightened up now, which is good.
 
An employer not paying the minimum wage can be prosecuted. It could be rather amusing (or messy depending on your point of view) to see the self employed prosecuted for failing to earn enough to pay themselves the minimum wage.
 
Orangehorse said:
Even if you only have one employee now, they have to be enrolled in a pension scheme. To say that people are "self employed" was always a nice get-out for an employer, but it is really being tightened up now, which is good.
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It has never been easy for people to claim their employees are self employed it is just that most yards have survived it by operating under the radar so to speak.
They rely on the black economy were most who work on that basis have never officially registered as self employed so the HMRC have never been aware of it and nobody has paid tax or insurance. Even if people earn below the tax and national insurance threshold they still legally have to be declared to HMRC
 
Bonkers2 said:
Anyone who was competent would not need to accept such work.
They could not be "misled" if they were competent.
Being self employed is an expensive undertaking.
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Both the girls that do work for me are self employed .
They are both very experienced and competent .
They do work for other people ,one does a lot of work that's not horsey .
They choose the hours they work and if they'd they don't want the hours I want I get someone else to fill in or do it myself .
They are paid considerably more than the minimum wage .
They are genuinely self employed .
Both work this way because it suits their work life balance in the past I have freelancers who did the work for lots of reasons one ( a wonderful 'elite ' groom )fitted it around having a small child another was a self employed florist as well as doing grooming another did bits of work around her uni course there's lots of good reasons to be self employed .
 
Goldenstar said:
Both the girls that do work for me are self employed .
They are both very experienced and competent .
They do work for other people ,one does a lot of work that's not horsey .
They choose the hours they work and if they'd they don't want the hours I want I get someone else to fill in or do it myself .
They are paid considerably more than the minimum wage .
They are genuinely self employed .
Both work this way because it suits their work life balance in the past I have freelancers who did the work for lots of reasons one ( a wonderful 'elite ' groom )fitted it around having a small child another was a self employed florist as well as doing grooming another did bits of work around her uni course there's lots of good reasons to be self employed .
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That's exactly how it should work!
 
Goldenstar said:
Both the girls that do work for me are self employed .
They are both very experienced and competent .
They do work for other people ,one does a lot of work that's not horsey .
They choose the hours they work and if they'd they don't want the hours I want I get someone else to fill in or do it myself .
They are paid considerably more than the minimum wage .
They are genuinely self employed .
Both work this way because it suits their work life balance in the past I have freelancers who did the work for lots of reasons one ( a wonderful 'elite ' groom )fitted it around having a small child another was a self employed florist as well as doing grooming another did bits of work around her uni course there's lots of good reasons to be self employed .
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You would still have an issue if HMRC started really looking . One of their test is what they call entrepreneurial risk which in its basic form means there is no agreed income and they could make a loss. As soon as you pay them x an hour you run the risk of HMRC saying they are employed. It can go as far as needing all their own equipment to do the tasks. I can tell you they are getting very picky . Check with an accountant as the cost may be large if you are caught out they can go back 7 yrs and you will have to pay everything that would have been due through PAYE including the girls pay.
 
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