Are some breeds/types sounder than others, or is it management..

Pigeon

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 July 2012
Messages
3,790
Visit site
The problem with short fat and hairy is that these sorts are often prone to laminitis. Horses with feathers can also get feather mite problems.

Yes, I've been very surprised at how unsound the cobs I've known have been! I just assumed sturdy = hardy!
 

hoggedmane

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 December 2008
Messages
1,100
Visit site
No - she is never sick, lame or sorry. I'm afraid the answer is the obvious one - the TB. He had a talent for getting into trouble. He could twist a shoe and tread on the nail as well as any one and ten times as often. He was kicked and ruptured his hock joint capsule. Another kick broke his splint bone. He got cancer at 7 and unfortunately had to be PTS at 14. He was the most lovely character but I always wondered what I was going to find when I went to see him.
 

Gypley

Well-Known Member
Joined
22 August 2012
Messages
586
Visit site
Fab ! Thanks Elvis & hoggedmane. She sounds lovely! And turns a hoof to anything which is brill ! Looking forward to starting my big chaps ridden career, think we're going to have lots of fun. Anyhoo, ill refrain from hijacking OPs thread any more :D
 

Spring Feather

Well-Known Member
Joined
30 December 2010
Messages
8,042
Location
North America
Visit site
Very interesting question Faracat and not one that can be conclusively answered I don't think. On my farm we have oodles of QHs, TBs, WBs (from various registries), Arabs, drafts, STBs, Appaloosas, a couple of Connemaras, a mustang and a handful of crossbreeds. They've mostly all been here for a good number of years and they have all been sound from the day they came here. None are shod, all live out 24/7, only about half of them ever see hardfeed, all have large hilly pastures with good grazing and all have ad-lib hay all year round. So what does that tell you about soundness in any specific breed? Zilch I'm afraid :smile3:

Dorian; yes it's HYPP you are talking about :smile3: HYPP did originate from the stallion Impressive but not all his offspring carried the gene for HYPP. AQHA put his progeny into categories; H/H, N/H and N/N. H/H horses are no longer allowed to be registered within the AQHA (finally!) however some people will still breed to N/H horses and risk it. Silly really in my opinion as there are plenty of HYPP N/N horses around which are definite non-carriers of the condition. I've owned quite a few Impressive horses, all N/N, and mine were all nice healthy horses. Many of the halter people love Impressive bloodlines though and they are the ones who helped keep this thing from being knocked on the head many moons ago unfortunately. I still believe that N/H horses should not be allowed to breed but there's nothing on the agenda from AQHA to disqualify them at present.
 

touchstone

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 April 2007
Messages
4,873
Visit site
If the new horse is to be expected to cope with difficult terrain then I'd be inclined to look at the native breeds; Fells, Dales, Highlands etc. The ones bred on the hills are usually able to cope with pretty much anything terrain wise. Laminitis awareness and weight watching are usually constants though. Or how about an Arab? They cope well with endurance and are pretty sure footed.
 

Tnavas

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 October 2005
Messages
8,480
Location
New Zealand but from UK
Visit site
Friesians are incredibly inbred, which means that they are heir to an impressive array of congenital problems. Many breeds are inbred (TB's for one), that is how characteristics are "fixed" - explained to me by an old, wise breeder as "When it works it's called line breeding; when it goes wrong it's called inbreeding".

It's more 'Line Breeding' with TB's where just one or two may show up in certain pedigrees but the genes are well diversified over many generations. Unlike the Friesians that had nearly died out, they are very inbred.

Many of the soundest horses I've had have been TB's who were still working in the riding school well into their 20's.
 

MagicMelon

Well-Known Member
Joined
6 November 2004
Messages
16,174
Location
North East Scotland
Visit site
The job my friend has in mind is hacking (very hilly) and local level shows. It may not sound tough, but anything with a hint of wind, back and/or lameness problems doesn't cope with the terrain.

I did wonder about suggesting that she gets in touch with our local Welsh Studs as I often drive past and see their stock out on the hills, so they are used to them and any not coping with the terrain would be evident.

Thats more sure-footedness you mean then? Like Id merrily take a sturdy native off the beaten track but I know my warmblood would probably trip over something! In which case anything designed for that sort of terrain would suit best (Welsh, Highland, Connie etc.). I think natives are generally a bit sturdier but then they are more prone to things like laminitis so can actually be more high maintenence to keep than your TB's and WB's (I speak from having a hell of a time keeping 2 of my natives lami-free or enough weight on the cushings one! Compared to my 2 horses who are so easy!).
 

jeeve

Well-Known Member
Joined
11 July 2010
Messages
3,871
Location
Hawkesbury/Blue Mountains NSW Australia
Visit site
I think ponies are tough and big horses warm bloods for eg prone to issues.

I also think the more natural existence they have the sounder they are, no stabling, out in paddock. But I don't live in uk.

Management has to play a part, you can make any horse unsound.

I have had more vet bills with my horses than ponies though.
 

Meowy Catkin

Meow!
Joined
19 July 2010
Messages
22,635
Visit site
Yes, sure foootedness is important, but I do mean totally sound in wind, limb and body too.

For example where I used to live was very flat and horses with 'niggles' could happily become light hacks and pootle around the lanes every weekend. Here you can't really do that because you are pretty much either going up or downhill (some of the roads are very steep - two chevrons on the map). I know three horses that struggle with the hills, but were ok on flatter land.

RE Springfeather's post - I wonder how much your management contributes the the soundness you have had with various breeds?
 

FfionWinnie

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 July 2012
Messages
17,021
Location
Scotland
Visit site
I would be tempted to say x-breeds for the same reasons as dogs. Conformation is increadible important too

But that's not true about dogs. Pedigree dogs tend to be tested for genetic disease crosses do not, it doesn't stop them suffering from them if they happen to meet with another pair of faulty genes.

I would have said natives would be sounder generally.
 

MotherOfChickens

MotherDucker
Joined
3 May 2007
Messages
16,641
Location
Weathertop
Visit site
but there's line breeding and line breeding. many breeders (in all species) have pushed this too far but line breeding is also responsible for many of our breeds, equine and agricultural-its how you get breeds after all.

its management, genes and luck. I have Exmoors (among others), very tough, very sound and from a pretty limited gene pool originally. If small natives are prone to laminitis, well thats a management issue on the whole-am not sure they're prone to it living where and how they should be living although not evangelistic enough to think that natural is the be all. But they are hard work in the summer thats for sure!
Many gypsy cobs I have known have had arthritic issues-possibly due to early management and partly due to conformation I would think. As for other breeds it seems to me to be a big training issue and I don't know if its when or how we are working them, how often, lack of conditioning or what. Riding horses seemed to be sounder when less people had arenas, horses worked hard but got proper down time and not many people did 'dressage'. Might be a biased personal view though.
 
Last edited:

gadetra

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 January 2009
Messages
1,406
Location
Longford, Ireland
Visit site
I think a lot of it is down to management in the early years, from birth to 3 yo.

As in, how can you expect an animal who has been reared on nice, flat, perfect paddock to cope with changeable ground conditions underfoot? And undulations, hills, rocks etc.? There is a paper out there somewhere about the effect of nitrogen on the solidity of bone and ligaments, it weakens them. So those lovely looking, gently rolling, often ex-dairy paddocks full of clover and mainly rye grass are a disaster.

Mine are reared on hilly scrub land, there are no flat bits in it at all, rocks breaking the surface and streams/forest within. They learn where to put their feet and manage/protect themselves on wet, hard and normal ground. (there's a variety in Every field unfortunately!) No horse I have ever bred or kept has been on fertilised ground (-mainly 'cos the good ground is for cattle and putting horses on it may cause the father to actually explode!) o they have a mixed herbage, as opposed to a mainly rye grass diet. There is a medicine cabinet growing at the side of every field too they can take their pick :wink3: They also get very very little hard feed, just a bit to mares 3 months before foaling and them and foal to 6 months, foal gets a bit at weaning and that's it. Their coats are shining and feet are healthy. I have one poor doer at the minute, she was not born here and is completely different to those who are. More delicate. She was reared in the Golden Vale so that says it all to me!

As foals and youngstock, if they don't get to condition their muscles and limbs to varied terrain and foodstuffs when they are growing and developing their muscloskeletal structures, and digestive systems, how can anyone expect it to do so as an adult? Sure they can learn but it is not innate or 'natural' for them to do so and will always remain so, albeit to degrees.

Does that make sense? I think I have rambled again. :rolleyes3:

Soundness for me comes down to the above, it is a lifelong investment in an animal. How you start it affects the horse for life, and its importance cannot be overstated.

Oh and I did not know about the cow hock thing. Interesting, you learn something new every day! I will try not to judge it too harshly in future.
 

Dreamer515

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 September 2013
Messages
210
Location
england
Visit site
i am not against TBs, i have 2 of them myself, but i do think they are more prone to injury as most, not all!!, are quite highly strung. also i think it does have something to do with breeding as when i worked with racehorses, all our horses by Supreme Leader seemed to have problems either with their legs or their backs. they were all treated properly but kept reocurring till they had to be retired. i guess it works along the same way as temperment passing down? i mean Overbury colts are very good but ive always been told to stay clear of Overbury fillies! also Flemingstar horses although talented tend to have similar problems with breathing. might be a coinsidence but personally ive seen enough evidence to believe not.
 

AandK

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 July 2007
Messages
3,905
Location
West Sussex
Visit site
I think good breeding/genetics can only get you so far, as does conformation.. I think a very important factor is management, not only from birth but day to day. I have seen the incidence of field (and stable!) related injuries reduce drastically since my TB has been out 24/7.
Of course all the management skills in the world aren't going to help you if your horse is a bit 'special' and/or predisposed to certain problems.

I really think there is no simple answer/formula to this and it really is pot luck with buying an unknown horse. Or even a known one in some respects..

Helpful? I suspect not :wink3:
 

cbmcts

Well-Known Member
Joined
30 April 2009
Messages
1,801
Visit site
but there's line breeding and line breeding. many breeders (in all species) have pushed this too far but line breeding is also responsible for many of our breeds, equine and agricultural-its how you get breeds after all.

its management, genes and luck. I have Exmoors (among others), very tough, very sound and from a pretty limited gene pool originally. If small natives are prone to laminitis, well thats a management issue on the whole-am not sure they're prone to it living where and how they should be living although not evangelistic enough to think that natural is the be all. But they are hard work in the summer thats for sure!
Many gypsy cobs I have known have had arthritic issues-possibly due to early management and partly due to conformation I would think. As for other breeds it seems to me to be a big training issue and I don't know if its when or how we are working them, how often, lack of conditioning or what. Riding horses seemed to be sounder when less people had arenas, horses worked hard but got proper down time and not many people did 'dressage'. Might be a biased personal view though.

I think a lot of it is down to management in the early years, from birth to 3 yo.

As in, how can you expect an animal who has been reared on nice, flat, perfect paddock to cope with changeable ground conditions underfoot? And undulations, hills, rocks etc.? There is a paper out there somewhere about the effect of nitrogen on the solidity of bone and ligaments, it weakens them. So those lovely looking, gently rolling, often ex-dairy paddocks full of clover and mainly rye grass are a disaster.

Mine are reared on hilly scrub land, there are no flat bits in it at all, rocks breaking the surface and streams/forest within. They learn where to put their feet and manage/protect themselves on wet, hard and normal ground. (there's a variety in Every field unfortunately!) No horse I have ever bred or kept has been on fertilised ground (-mainly 'cos the good ground is for cattle and putting horses on it may cause the father to actually explode!) o they have a mixed herbage, as opposed to a mainly rye grass diet. There is a medicine cabinet growing at the side of every field too they can take their pick :wink3: They also get very very little hard feed, just a bit to mares 3 months before foaling and them and foal to 6 months, foal gets a bit at weaning and that's it. Their coats are shining and feet are healthy. I have one poor doer at the minute, she was not born here and is completely different to those who are. More delicate. She was reared in the Golden Vale so that says it all to me!

As foals and youngstock, if they don't get to condition their muscles and limbs to varied terrain and foodstuffs when they are growing and developing their muscloskeletal structures, and digestive systems, how can anyone expect it to do so as an adult? Sure they can learn but it is not innate or 'natural' for them to do so and will always remain so, albeit to degrees.

Does that make sense? I think I have rambled again. :rolleyes3:

Soundness for me comes down to the above, it is a lifelong investment in an animal. How you start it affects the horse for life, and its importance cannot be overstated.

Oh and I did not know about the cow hock thing. Interesting, you learn something new every day! I will try not to judge it too harshly in future.

I agree with both above - assuming that you are starting with reasonable conformation and no genetic disease then good management and using the correct breed for the job will give you best chance of your horse staying sound and sane for many years.

Of course, being horses they like to surprise us with ever weirder ways to self harm :)
 

doriangrey

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 December 2012
Messages
1,194
Location
Ireland
Visit site
Oh and I did not know about the cow hock thing. Interesting, you learn something new every day! I will try not to judge it too harshly in future.
I had to dig out 'No Foot, No Horse' to remind me where I'd picked this up from. Anyway, I'll quote:
'All horsemastership texts will tell you that the horse must move on two tracks and that the hind limbs should be perfectly straight standing still. In our opinion, especially in the speed horse, this is not natural. If you watch a horse from behind moving away from you, you will note that as he gets into the faster gaits - particularly the gallop - he will place his feet more widely apart. This is to prevent the hind feet from coming into contact with the front feet. In other words the horse is no longer moving on two tracks. To enable the horse to place his feet wider apart he rotates the whole hind limb out from the hip joint (at the acetabulum) - this means that his hocks are pushed out and his lower limb rotates inward. If he began with feet pointing straight to the front then at the gallop his feet would be pointing inward - pigeon toed. In our opinion it is far more natural for a horse to stand slightly cow-hocked with his hind toes pointing in a five-to-one position. This means that when he rotates the hind limb outward at the gallop his feet will be pointing straight forwards, thus enabling him to attain optimum biomechanical function'.

So it is the authors' opinion after all, how it works in real life I don't know. Anyway, to put in in context with the original question, if we are breeding from what we consider to be perfect horses are we causing the potential soundness issues? We talk about horses finding their balance and knocking into themselves but this is an animal that is standing and galloping not long after birth - how many people have seen a young foal scratching it's ear with a hind leg balancing perfectly? It's a doozy alright :D
 

MagicMelon

Well-Known Member
Joined
6 November 2004
Messages
16,174
Location
North East Scotland
Visit site
Yes, sure foootedness is important, but I do mean totally sound in wind, limb and body too.

RE Springfeather's post - I wonder how much your management contributes the the soundness you have had with various breeds?

No particular breed / type is "totally sound" in wind, limb and body. That would of course differ hugely simply between horses in general. I definately agree that management is a huge factor. Keeping them out 24/7 is a big help as that helps keep them sound in limb / body (as they're moving about keeping flexible, are generally fitter and are more used to varying terrain and the effect weather has on it) and also in wind since we all know keeping them stabled is not good for their respiratory systems.

OP, basically just get whatever horse/pony you like fully vetted and hope for the best! You are never going to guarantee anything.
 

Meowy Catkin

Meow!
Joined
19 July 2010
Messages
22,635
Visit site
OP, basically just get whatever horse/pony you like fully vetted and hope for the best! You are never going to guarantee anything.

It's not for me - if I was looking for another horse it would be an arab (again ;)). I was just asked if there was a better chance of getting a long term sound horse by going for certain breeds and it got me thinking about breed, management and soundness.

I agree with your thoughts though.
 

Calcyle

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 May 2011
Messages
419
Visit site
I had to dig out 'No Foot, No Horse' to remind me where I'd picked this up from. Anyway, I'll quote:
'All horsemastership texts will tell you that the horse must move on two tracks and that the hind limbs should be perfectly straight standing still. In our opinion, especially in the speed horse, this is not natural. If you watch a horse from behind moving away from you, you will note that as he gets into the faster gaits - particularly the gallop - he will place his feet more widely apart. This is to prevent the hind feet from coming into contact with the front feet. In other words the horse is no longer moving on two tracks. To enable the horse to place his feet wider apart he rotates the whole hind limb out from the hip joint (at the acetabulum) - this means that his hocks are pushed out and his lower limb rotates inward. If he began with feet pointing straight to the front then at the gallop his feet would be pointing inward - pigeon toed. In our opinion it is far more natural for a horse to stand slightly cow-hocked with his hind toes pointing in a five-to-one position. This means that when he rotates the hind limb outward at the gallop his feet will be pointing straight forwards, thus enabling him to attain optimum biomechanical function'.

So it is the authors' opinion after all, how it works in real life I don't know. Anyway, to put in in context with the original question, if we are breeding from what we consider to be perfect horses are we causing the potential soundness issues? We talk about horses finding their balance and knocking into themselves but this is an animal that is standing and galloping not long after birth - how many people have seen a young foal scratching it's ear with a hind leg balancing perfectly? It's a doozy alright :D

I can't make sense of that description! If the hip rotates outwards, the entire limb should rotate outwards??
In fact, the talus in the horse's hock is angled very slightly to allow for the distal limb to rotate outwards as the leg is flexed, for this very reason. I was told this is the norm, not that it was particular to the leg I was dissecting.
I can see the point about cow hocks, that does make sense (though that is what the leg is naturally designed to do)... But I cannot figure out how turning the hip out will cause the hocks to turn out? Turning the hip out will make the hocks turn in and thus the lower limb out, surely?? (You try turning your hip out and heel out at the same time!)

The underlying point is valid, but that sentence is just boggling my brain.
 

Tnavas

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 October 2005
Messages
8,480
Location
New Zealand but from UK
Visit site
I think a lot of it is down to management in the early years, from birth to 3 yo.

As in, how can you expect an animal who has been reared on nice, flat, perfect paddock to cope with changeable ground conditions underfoot? And undulations, hills, rocks etc.? There is a paper out there somewhere about the effect of nitrogen on the solidity of bone and ligaments, it weakens them. So those lovely looking, gently rolling, often ex-dairy paddocks full of clover and mainly rye grass are a disaster.

Mine are reared on hilly scrub land, there are no flat bits in it at all, rocks breaking the surface and streams/forest within. They learn where to put their feet and manage/protect themselves on wet, hard and normal ground. (there's a variety in Every field unfortunately!) No horse I have ever bred or kept has been on fertilised ground (-mainly 'cos the good ground is for cattle and putting horses on it may cause the father to actually explode!) o they have a mixed herbage, as opposed to a mainly rye grass diet. There is a medicine cabinet growing at the side of every field too they can take their pick :wink3: They also get very very little hard feed, just a bit to mares 3 months before foaling and them and foal to 6 months, foal gets a bit at weaning and that's it. Their coats are shining and feet are healthy. I have one poor doer at the minute, she was not born here and is completely different to those who are. More delicate. She was reared in the Golden Vale so that says it all to me!

As foals and youngstock, if they don't get to condition their muscles and limbs to varied terrain and foodstuffs when they are growing and developing their muscloskeletal structures, and digestive systems, how can anyone expect it to do so as an adult? Sure they can learn but it is not innate or 'natural' for them to do so and will always remain so, albeit to degrees.

Does that make sense? I think I have rambled again. :rolleyes3:

Soundness for me comes down to the above, it is a lifelong investment in an animal. How you start it affects the horse for life, and its importance cannot be overstated.

Oh and I did not know about the cow hock thing. Interesting, you learn something new every day! I will try not to judge it too harshly in future.

Sorry but some of this is laughable - my Anglo Arab, born and raised on dairy pasture, on the flat is a top level endurance horse where strength, soundness, agility and stamina are extremely important. He is as sound as a bell, great heart rate and when I last spoke to his current owner was I endeavouring to qualify for the World Endurance Champs in France.

In all breeds you have the horse that falls apart at the drop of a hat and the ones that never have anything wrong with them
 

gadetra

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 January 2009
Messages
1,406
Location
Longford, Ireland
Visit site
Sorry but some of this is laughable - my Anglo Arab, born and raised on dairy pasture, on the flat is a top level endurance horse where strength, soundness, agility and stamina are extremely important. He is as sound as a bell, great heart rate and when I last spoke to his current owner was I endeavouring to qualify for the World Endurance Champs in France.

In all breeds you have the horse that falls apart at the drop of a hat and the ones that never have anything wrong with them

Fair enough, but I will add that a mare I bred represented Ireland st the home international at 80k after 18 months of training, and sound as a bell this year! There are actually papers out there on the nitrogen thing, another poster had them on another thread-I was never so glad of my horses crap grazing :lol:
Saying that mine go gaga over a bucket or a bale. They're not starved at all (filly mentioned above had to go to wright estchers before she could go to her new home :redface3: ).
But there are exceptions to every rule, maybe both of ours are :wink3:

ETA filly in question is Arab sire x ish, so not totally bred for the job but not not either if you know what I mean? She certainly isn't as speedy as an Anglo Arab!
 
Last edited:

Tnavas

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 October 2005
Messages
8,480
Location
New Zealand but from UK
Visit site
Gadetra - all mine have been born and raised on dairy land with ryegrass and clover, riding school horses and ponies and all as sound as bells with many in their late teens and early 20's.

Conformation plays a very high part in any animals soundness. Good conformation means that limbs travel correctly and the stay system is able to work correctly.

Another key factor, is the fitness of the horse and the method of getting the horse fit for the work its doing. There are many horses that are just not fit.

Also to consider is the damage an abscess can do to the bones within a foot. The sneaky abscess that runs alongside a bone can cause bone remodelling very easily. A tread on the coronary band either by another hoof or maybe a jump rail can set off ringbone.

Lack of supporting minerals in the form of a mineral block can cause mineral deficiency, while the over supplementing of minerals can cause an inbalance. Generally many horses are needlessly fed high processed feeds that contain a multitude of products that a horse given the option would'nt touch. Soy upsets the human metabolism, I am positive that it does the same in horses.

Historically we are taught bran is not good for horses yet it is in just about every processed feed you buy. Bran contains phytates that block the absorption of Calcium even when Calciumis added as an extra supplement.
 

Dry Rot

Well-Known Member
Joined
31 May 2010
Messages
5,847
Location
Scotland
Visit site
The selection of breeding stock is the key.

Historically, horses were bred for a purpose or to do a job, now they are "amenity" which includes showing and the life style of the majority is scarcely demanding.

Years ago, if they couldn't do it, they'd be dog meat. Today, they will be taken to the vet, "repaired", then taken home to breed more the same (often by AI!).

Nature is the best selector of breeding stock -- but she is cruel and ruthless and definitely not politically correct.
 

doriangrey

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 December 2012
Messages
1,194
Location
Ireland
Visit site
I can't make sense of that description! If the hip rotates outwards, the entire limb should rotate outwards??
In fact, the talus in the horse's hock is angled very slightly to allow for the distal limb to rotate outwards as the leg is flexed, for this very reason. I was told this is the norm, not that it was particular to the leg I was dissecting.
I can see the point about cow hocks, that does make sense (though that is what the leg is naturally designed to do)... But I cannot figure out how turning the hip out will cause the hocks to turn out? Turning the hip out will make the hocks turn in and thus the lower limb out, surely?? (You try turning your hip out and heel out at the same time!)

The underlying point is valid, but that sentence is just boggling my brain.

Honestly, I don't know - I was quoting from the book to show where I'd got the information from. It does seem that slight cow hocks aren't necessarily a bad thing in any case and might be advantageous at high speeds. If you are judging though that's not what you'd be looking for.
 

tabithakat64

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 October 2006
Messages
5,942
Location
Herts, UK
Visit site
*touches wood* out of the horses I've owned/looked after my spindly legged welsh B x Arab has had the least soundness/health issues, all the TB's, Arabs, ISH's, cobs and natives have had something wrong with them be it accident, injury or soundness issues. I've struggled most with my Welsh cob (he's the old school leg at each corner more heavier type) however I did do a lot of dressage/schooling with him which he is probably not designed for (all his lamenesses were hind limb).

I think management and conformation are the biggest factors affecting soundness and obviously conformation is linked to breeding.

Horses kept 'naturally' also seem to be far sounder/healthier...

If you have hilly, mixed terrain and your friend wants a low level all-rounder I'd be tempted to go for a Highland or Arab personally and try to find one with as near perfect conformation as possible :D
 
Last edited:
Top