Are some people just never any good?

Goldenstar said:
I do not subcribe to the view that the only people who can learn to ride and train well are those that have ridden piaffe on Dads stallion while still being breastfed .
From Carl Hester to Mary king I can just think of too many people who it does not apply to.
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LOL - too true! I never thought I would ever ride half pass - in my world it was a way up there in the lofty never, never of dressage. But with the right teacher, the ex endurance horse and I bumbled our way thru it. I may never ride it in a competition, but there is time yet!
 
Goldenstar said:
I do not subcribe to the view that the only people who can learn to ride and train well are those that have ridden piaffe on Dads stallion while still being breastfed .
From Carl Hester to Mary king I can just think of too many people who it does not apply to.
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Carl Hester had the advantage of riding advanced horses from an early age (teenager, with the Bechtolsheimers), and Mary King, well she's an eventer and SUPPOSED to get by on guts and blood :-)

It's not ONLY the people who have access to schoolmasters that can advance, but it makes learning 100 times easier and faster, and also more correct. Why are people getting ruffled feathers because I've advocated learning from someone (or horse, preferably) that knows how to do it? Is it because it is unusual/unavailable in the UK?
 
Cortez said:
Carl Hester had the advantage of riding advanced horses from an early age (teenager, with the Bechtolsheimers), and Mary King, well she's an eventer and SUPPOSED to get by on guts and blood :-)

It's not ONLY the people who have access to schoolmasters that can advance, but it makes learning 100 times easier and faster, and also more correct. Why are people getting ruffled feathers because I've advocated learning from someone (or horse, preferably) that knows how to do it? Is it because it is unusual/unavailable in the UK?
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I think it perhaps makes us feel a little defensive, as, in my part of the world anyway, such an advanced horse available for lessons is all but impossible to find. I personally agree with you- I've had it at a lower level having had the opportunity to sit on a couple of horses working at medium, I at least have an idea of what I'm aiming for with the young, green and mucked up horses and ponies I come across in my day to day life. I think medium/ adv med is a useful level, as it is a level of flatwork useful for any discipline so very transferable.
 
Also, there is a difference between riding well and winning lots. Sometimes the two collide, but I get beaten by plenty of people who I do not aspire to ride like!
 
loobylu said:
Also, there is a difference between riding well and winning lots. Sometimes the two collide, but I get beaten by plenty of people who I do not aspire to ride like!
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There's no need ever to go to a competition to ride well , we tend to equate competing and riding well and perhaps the desire to do high level stuff with riding well but the they aren't linked .
 
Cortez said:
It's not ONLY the people who have access to schoolmasters that can advance, but it makes learning 100 times easier and faster, and also more correct. Why are people getting ruffled feathers because I've advocated learning from someone (or horse, preferably) that knows how to do it? Is it because it is unusual/unavailable in the UK?
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Dunno, it seems a reasonable enough perspective to me. Although the absence of a schoolmaster in my life isn't going to stop me messing around and trying :p

loobylu said:
Also, there is a difference between riding well and winning lots. Sometimes the two collide, but I get beaten by plenty of people who I do not aspire to ride like!
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With bells on.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
i dont think its always the riding/lessons/horse bit that hold people back, its all the stuff in between. The yard work, horse care, planning, tweaking, changing, experimenting.

and thats the bit that takes feel and balls, just as much as the part on top of the horse.

i know people that spend a good whack on horses, train with top top riders and NEVER really progress because they struggle to use the info given to them in lessons, struggle to put it in to practice alone, struggle to use info from different sources in their own training plan, struggle to formulate a real training plan even. They have no feel for changing or experimenting stuff so tend to get stuck in a sour cycle.

thats what i see happening anyway.
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Prince33Sp4rkle - can you clarify on the above points please (or any one else that can?) what do you mean by tweaking / changing and experimenting? Think I know what you mean but if I am wrong then I am one of the unteachables! Lol!

Not disagreeing with the above I believe (of what I understand) to agree with you. So was just Hoping for clarification to help me make any changes needed to help my self. Thank you :)
 
EQUIDAE said:
Soooo jealous!
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Where are you? Talland School of Equitation has Grand Prix trained 14.2 connemara! :) She loves to show off all her tricks - will piaffe and do changes for the whole hour if you let her lol.

Honestly, look at the 12 year old kids who are competing at Advanced Medium already - they are only there because their parents have money - money for the lessons and ponies.

I personally despise dressage but if I want to event I need to get my bum in gear and find an instructor to scream at me a bit as dressage is everything nowadays lol.

I will jump anything but it regularly doesn't go right and that's due to my own fault - I try and jump for the horse and I know these habits but with my flat-jumping, still-needs-schooling mare I am having to improve her before I can improve myself.
 
I have a question for everyone on this thread! How many people are on your yard, and how many of those people have done all three of the things that Neptune describes (60% at Nov, successful completion of 1m SJ and 90cm ODE)? On my yard, about 30, and precisely 3. That is 10%.

It's not as easy as you might think, Neptune! Most people don't even try to do it. You are out there trying to do it, so be a bit proud of that, at least.

You're frustrated that you're not making as much progress as you'd like. Take a look at what you can change. Your mindset, your training, possibly, yes, your horse. I know it's so easy to say that your horse is capable, therefore if you're not getting there, it's your fault, but that's far too simplistic! Not every rider clicks with every horse and also, I dispute that every horse is capable of doing what you say.

In your position, I'd get some really good lessons with the best person you can find. Perhaps have a pro sit on your horse. I agree that people have their natural limits - but it sounds like you haven't hit yours yet, so get out there and find out where it is.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
i dont think its always the riding/lessons/horse bit that hold people back, its all the stuff in between. The yard work, horse care, planning, tweaking, changing, experimenting.

and thats the bit that takes feel and balls, just as much as the part on top of the horse.

i know people that spend a good whack on horses, train with top top riders and NEVER really progress because they struggle to use the info given to them in lessons, struggle to put it in to practice alone, struggle to use info from different sources in their own training plan, struggle to formulate a real training plan even. They have no feel for changing or experimenting stuff so tend to get stuck in a sour cycle.

thats what i see happening anyway.
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YES. That'd be me in the dressage. Oh, my horse is going really well. Oh, look, that's because I've got a top DR trainer standing in front of me. Oh, I'm riding on why own. Oh, look, my horse has turned into a giraffe.
 
HotToTrot said:
I have a question for everyone on this thread! How many people are on your yard, and how many of those people have done all three of the things that Neptune describes (60% at Nov, successful completion of 1m SJ and 90cm ODE)? On my yard, about 30, and precisely 3. That is 10%.

It's not as easy as you might think, Neptune! Most people don't even try to do it. You are out there trying to do it, so be a bit proud of that, at least.
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There are 16 at my yard. I'm the only one to have done any of those things, let alone all 3.
 
star said:
There are 16 at my yard. I'm the only one to have done any of those things, let alone all 3.
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Similar as you and HTT - a few more do unaff dressage but only 1/2 affiliate at the moment,and only the YMs successfully compete or event. Maybe we're all assuming people are at a higher level than most of them are!
 
My instructor teaches a huge variety of people from PC tiny tots, to me and my friends (Young Riders aiming at BE teams etc), to RC women, to people aiming for Rio. She also teaches PC tests, and always stresses to everyone that riding well is not the same thing as winning lots of competitions (which I could not understand until I was about 19!) I think it's worth remembering this - someone who rides beautifully may not have the right temperament for competition, but that doesn't mean they'll never be any good! So don't be too hard on yourself.

Lots of good advice here too. I'd just say keep on with the lessons, and don't measure yourself against random arbitrary goal posts because you will move them the better you get and it won't make you happy!
 
Neptune said:
Prince33Sp4rkle - can you clarify on the above points please (or any one else that can?) what do you mean by tweaking / changing and experimenting? Think I know what you mean but if I am wrong then I am one of the unteachables! Lol!

Not disagreeing with the above I believe (of what I understand) to agree with you. So was just Hoping for clarification to help me make any changes needed to help my self. Thank you :)
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its the ability to not get stuck in a rut, to not take things too literally, to be able to accept when one thing isnt working and try it slightly differently, to be able to look outside the box.

as someone else has said you cannot train a horse from books, very few have read the books, none of them conform to the ideal, you need to have enough self confidence and be able to look in to the future to a degree, to understand that perfection isnt instant, and there will be many less than ideal sessions along the way. If you are too scared of changing something and making it worse, you will be so scared you never change it and make it better.

horses are very forgiving and as long as you hold your hands up and say "sorry,that was my fault" they dont really mind when the goal posts change again.
 
Thanks for your words of encoragement HTT. Thinking about my yard there is not many that could complete a 60% at novice. But although not many people compete there are several of them who have the ability and confidence to jump over a metre. Although would they be able to complete a course of this size at a competition venue, who knows. After all this is a totally different scenario to jumping a single fence at home.

I just have to keep pushing and trying and find out what works for myself I guess to get us there.
 
HotToTrot said:
I have a question for everyone on this thread! How many people are on your yard, and how many of those people have done all three of the things that Neptune describes (60% at Nov, successful completion of 1m SJ and 90cm ODE)? On my yard, about 30, and precisely 3. That is 10%.
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The yard I'm on has approximately 80 livery clients and out of them all, I'd say maybe two have managed all three. That's just over 2%.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
its the ability to not get stuck in a rut, to not take things too literally, to be able to accept when one thing isnt working and try it slightly differently, to be able to look outside the box.

as someone else has said you cannot train a horse from books, very few have read the books, none of them conform to the ideal, you need to have enough self confidence and be able to look in to the future to a degree, to understand that perfection isnt instant, and there will be many less than ideal sessions along the way. If you are too scared of changing something and making it worse, you will be so scared you never change it and make it better.

horses are very forgiving and as long as you hold your hands up and say "sorry,that was my fault" they dont really mind when the goal posts change again.
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Thank you for clarifying. It does make sense, if one thing isn't working, try another way. Maybe something I do need to incorporate more, think outside the box of what I currently know. Will remember this. Thank you :)
 
HotToTrot said:
YES. That'd be me in the dressage. Oh, my horse is going really well. Oh, look, that's because I've got a top DR trainer standing in front of me. Oh, I'm riding on why own. Oh, look, my horse has turned into a giraffe.
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That was a bit like me .
Until I learnt how to learn better.
It was a huge moment for me when I cracked this .
When I have a lesson I am in a system .
I warm as I would at home , then I work the horse I would work being careful to show what I think I need to.
Then usually the trainer stops you and you have a chat then they start the training at this point I click a switch in my brain and concentrate only on what they are saying and doing it .
After a bit switch to another place and start to do my own thing keeping the points exercises in mind that the trainer has raised .
This helps me to feel the benefits within my system and let's the trainer see more of how I am approaching things I think it helps to embed stuff better in my mind and makes it's easier to remember how what your being told affects the work .
You might have several of these sections during a lesson the trainer trains you give yourself up to it then you take the idea off on your own .
Have a training book helps .
I have one per horse and it used for all sort of stuff .
I write up each lesson ASAP after it usually in the wagon before I drive home .
 
That's awfully hard on yourself! Try to reframe your expectations into just enjoying it, if you relax and take the pressure off I'm sure it'll be easier.
Are you capable of completing what you're describe successfully at home? Do you have an ability issue or a issue at competitions?
If it's the former forget competing for a while, if you are having lessons and not improving change instructors and don't put on the pressure of a competition until you are comfortable training a level above where you want to be competitive. If it's the later try some NLP or Sport Psychology sessions. The book 'Perfect Mind, Perfect Ride' is a good place to start while you find a professional in your area with an equine background.

To answer your question in a general way, everyone can improve. I don't believe there is such a thing as a natural rider although some people have physical, mental (and financial!) attributes that make their journey easier. I do think the main barrier that prevents some people progressing is that they are not very analytical or reflective. You need to have a good grasp of cause and effect, be self aware and perceptive to become really competent as a rider and that is quite difficult to 'train' into people. There are really good instructors who can definitely help though and doing things like lunge lessons, lessons on school masters, training for the ridden elements of BHS exams really help to move you on too.
 
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