Are there ponies that will never lose their fear?

[Aarrghimpossiblepony]

Quick summary.

Have a rising five New Forest mare. She was unhandled, I have had her since October.

Although I have made progress, can lead her out on the road, can groom her (but she doesn't like it, scares her too much) the underlying impression she is giving is that she is utterly terrified of people. They confuse her, she doesn't understand why I feed her, why I touch her, it's as if we are aliens from a different planet.
And when she feels she can't cope, she runs. Today she jumped out of the field shelter, over the bars, and thankfully the top bar broke before she brought the roof down on her (and me).

What was I doing to install this utter panic?
Stroking her head and rubbing her neck.
(don't pat, never pat, you wouldn't see her for a week if you patted her)

So the question is,
Is it worthwhile persevering?
Are there horses/ponies who just never will understand that humans aren't monsters?

 

[Floxie]

Oh dear I do hope you get helpful feedback soon, but in the interim I just want to say that I hope it won't be too long before you have to put in a request for a new username! What a shame...

 

[Dry Rot]

An old lady once said to me, "Nothing can remain frightened forever".

It took a while for me to think that out but it is a very wise remark. You just keep gently pushing the boundaries until they accept what you are doing. Sometimes, combining it with food helps. But it can be done. A little more every day.

 

[Aarrghimpossiblepony]

Oh dear I do hope you get helpful feedback soon, but in the interim I just want to say that I hope it won't be too long before you have to put in a request for a new username! What a shame...

It is a shame, she's an absolute sweetie.

The username was due more to seeing the funny side of it all.
Having stood in the field in the snow yet again, going back to square one and encouraging her to come over and at the same time making sure I didn't give any sign that I was very pee'd off.

 

[Spiritedly]

Have you read Sarah Westons 'No Fear, No Force' book? She has some great advice on how to handle semi feral ponies. Both our youngsters were semi ferals, one was extremely frightened when he arrived, now no-one believes they were ever wild. It takes time but they do come round.

 

[Aarrghimpossiblepony]

Have you read Sarah Westons 'No Fear, No Force' book? She has some great advice on how to handle semi feral ponies. Both our youngsters were semi ferals, one was extremely frightened when he arrived, now no-one believes they were ever wild. It takes time but they do come round.

Thanks, I'll have a look for that.

There hasn't been any question of using force though. It's self evident from her behaviour that that will simply make things much, much worse.

When I first got her, a slightly raised voice would send her to the other side of the field.
Interestingly, she loads without any trouble. It doesn't make sense until you see it from her point of view. Any human standing behind her (even not moving or close) are far more scary than the big dark trailer/horsebox.

 

[puss]

I had one the same as you just saying good morning boys to loud would send him in to orbit panic if you raise hand to fast and run. As for putting rugs on he fell to the floor and refused to get up sheer panic. Two years on still have to be a bit carefull hand movements but can chuck rugs on his back shake plastic bags in his face spray fly spray on most thing dont bother him now. something i did do hung plastic bags paper sacks and bottle with stones in it from the beams in his stable so got used to noise but this was after six months of owning him. Yes they do get better with lots of time but sometimes a trigger of their past will set them of mine is still prone to having the odd panic attack but rare now

 

[Sugarplum Furry]

You can get 'No Fear No Force' from Amazon, it's about £13 and worth every penny, Sarah Weston really knows her stuff when it comes to handling feral and semi feral ponies. She lives in the New Forest area and has New Forest ponies of her own, you could always contact her for advice.

http://www.logicalhorsemanship.co.uk/ this is her website.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Thing is she can get away from you every time. And yes while nothing should ever be forced, a situation in which she sees you as something she can't get away from, in a nice way, helps.

Let me explain. We get in unhandled ponies for a client. The only way they get here is run through the cattle crush, headcollar on, and run into box. They arrive, fly off, and then it's patience, 2 people behind, and coaxed into stable. We usually have to tie a long rope onto the head collar too. Because you won't just catch them. For the first few days its about establishing a routine which also includes learning to lead. They also get to go to the arena for a bit as I feel it unfair to keep them locked up. This usually means we set up a chute back to the stable because still in catchable. When in sometimes we get a book or phone and set up shop outside stable. They have hay and haylage to munch and little by little they get used to us. They can't get out of the stable. Now and again we go in, grab long rope give a quick rub on neck and then just leave. The last one we had took about 3 weeks before he'd let us pet him and not be terrified. But they catch onto a schedule quite quickly. Routine is your friend. They also got 2 small meals a day. But everyday we had to try, not force. Thing is, like with the last one, they probably will fight as its natural. He used to rear up and come at my husband boxing. For a time this is all ignored. It has to be. But my husband stayed calm, still caught the rope, have him a rub and left. We also did a lot of in hand grazing.

I haven't read the book obviously. But I have to live this with ponies we get in. While you can't force them to do anything, yes there is pressure. They must have a daily routine. I'm not so sure we'd make a lot of progress from a field. And to be fair these are client horses so I can't spend 6 months trying to sort from a field either. In the stable, we can catch and yes they have pressure put on them to start being handled. If there were plenty of escape opportunities they'd take them. They're flight animals.

But look I'm sure someone will come along and tell me this is all wrong. But considering the pony that used to come at us with teeth and front ones, is now happily carrying his owner who hadn't ridden in 40 years safely, I don't think the pony suffered or was traumatised. But seriously the pony needs a routine daily. And they way you currently have it set up means she will choose escape.

Terri

 

[JillA]

I would also be checking whether she is deficient in magnesium - cheap and easy enough to check, just supplement her with MagOx for a couple of weeks, if it doesn't help she doesn't need it.
And look into positive and negative reinforcement - the basis of all learning and works a treat if your timing is good. It's too big a subject to write in a post really but there is a lot of information, much if it by the clicker training people. Ben Hart was good at explaining it.

 

[FfionWinnie]

October to now is nothing really. I'd get that book and also Richard Maxwell's train your young horse.

You need her shut in somewhere she cannot smash up to escape/evade you.

 

[canteron]

I would also be checking whether she is deficient in magnesium - cheap and easy enough to check, just supplement her with MagOx for a couple of weeks, if it doesn't help she doesn't need it.
And look into positive and negative reinforcement - the basis of all learning and works a treat if your timing is good. It's too big a subject to write in a post really but there is a lot of information, much if it by the clicker training people. Ben Hart was good at explaining it.

Ben Hart really knows his stuff. On the same theme, there is currently a 'blog' video on the hannah dawson site, where she is clicker training 2 'ferel' rescue Zonkeys (Zebra x Donkey!). Might be worth checking out for some inspiration on positive reinforcement.
http://www.hannahdawsonequine.co.uk/

 

[Jericho]

I feel for you and the pony. It must be such an alien world for them and I know it can be very hard when you spend so much time, care, love, attention on an animal when you seem to get nothing back.

I am sure they do lose their fear and the key is consistent firm handling, routine and giving them confidence and seeing you as a nice 'place' to be.

I have a a 16 yr old mare who has been with me at home for 4 years. Before me she was an eventer and although well cared for I think was worked hard, kept at a competition yard. Something in her life has made her distrust humans because I only have to raise my voice, or make a quick movement and she acts as though I am going to beat her up - wild eyed, shaking, all tense. I never have quite worked out what to do with her other than just being incredibly soft and gentle with her all the time.

Good luck - I am sure you will have a lovely little mare soon

 

[Dry Rot]

The problem with an animal (any animal) that moves away from it's trainer when scared is that the fear is being reinforced.

It becomes frightened, moves away, and fear subsides. So it is being rewarded for bolting.

I agree with FW. You need to get the pony inside. Also, hunger is your ally. I don't mean starvation -- in fact that is counter productive as a starved animal will "shut down". But if an animal is keen for meal time and they are regular and you are the bringer of food, the two will quickly become linked. "Hey, here's that guy again with my grub!". You'll soon be the good guy.

Once he's taking hard feed, get it so he will feed from a bucket as you hold it. Hold the bucket with your left hand, or between your knees, and hold your right hand out to the side, far enough away that it does not scare him. Bring the hand closer every day until, to get his head into the bucket, he has to brush your hand. Then you can begin stroking....

Get a chair and sit down with a book near the hay net. Move the chair closer every day. Horses are trickle feeders, so this can work well.

Once that relationship is established (and you'll notice the difference in body language) you can gradually push the boundaries. If the pony shows it might panic, you are pushing too far. You need to push up to the point the pony is a bit nervous but not panicking. Gradually, it will accept more and more.

As for the sensitivity to noise, I can recommend Radio 1 from a portable radio in the stable set very low. Increase the volume a tad daily. If an animal can put up with that, it will put up with anything!

I've been dealing with a similar but not such extreme case. From shying off every time I approached to now when he comes immediately he sees me. Previously, whenever I went near him, he'd get a slice of carrot. Now he comes just for a scratch and a kind word. He's decided I am a friend and he trusts me. You will get there too. It takes time but there are tricks to shorten the time span.

 

[POLLDARK]

I think Equilibrium Ireland is talking a lot of good sense & you could do a lot worse by not following her advice.

 

[wowser]

do you have a stable you can use, if so shut her in the stable for a couple of weeks so she has to depend on you, put bars up if you think she might go over the top, spend as much time as you can doing nothing so to speak, just being with her when you think things are working out, try touch and retreat she will realise that you bring food and water, that will give you a bond with her. always be happy they pick up on that a wither scratch is always good if she'll let you as that's mutral grooming always remember for everystep forward you may go 2 back. one of my new forests was like that,

 

[nostromo70]

I agree with Dry Rot.
Although i do think there are somethings that they just can't cope with. Having said that the younger they are the better chance you have of winning them round.
I have a 12yr old who hates narrow spaces (we're talking single gates and the like) He will never get over this, we just manage him with this in mind.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Thank you Polldark. That's very nice.

Have to say its really nice when you get to meet the real horse or pony after the time spent getting them "social". The lad we have here now is a hoot. An incredible clever pony that will do anything for you. The ones previous to him were the same and the ones after him will be too.

Terri

 

[Dry Rot]

I agree with Dry Rot.
Although i do think there are somethings that they just can't cope with. Having said that the younger they are the better chance you have of winning them round.
I have a 12yr old who hates narrow spaces (we're talking single gates and the like) He will never get over this, we just manage him with this in mind.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I admit I'm still learning. I hate stressing them out although they do seem to cope very well. I used to sit for hours with a bucket to get the head collars on but now wait until they are reasonably settled inside, then use a long stick to slip a non-closing noose over their heads while they are pulling at the hay net. Often the pressure of the open noose is enough to restrain them so they go back to pulling at the hay. I can then "walk" my way up the rope until I am handling their heads and slip the collar on. Sometimes I spend a bit of time stroking them with the rope or the head collar on the end of the stick first. But, let's face it, it will be a couple of years or so before they are backed so there is no hurry..

Re: narrow gates, have you considered rigging up an "artificial gateway" (that can be narrowed every day) to an area that the pony wants to go to, e.g. water trough or hay net or gate between fields that it uses regularly? Start wide and gradually close the gap daily. I have plastic strips hanging from the ceiling of the field shelter in strategic places which dance menacingly in the breeze! They soon get used to that and don't associate them with humans either. Just don't make things so scary the pony is deprived of food or water or can't cope!

 

[Aarrghimpossiblepony]

Thank you for all the replies.

Probably the main problem I have is no facilities. That isn't going to change anytime soon so just have to work with what I've got.

So far this is what I can do.
Lead her out for walks
Pick up her feet.
Groom
Tie Up.

So what's the problem I hear you say.

Just the feeling I got yesterday that all of that ^^^ was endured rather than enjoyed and when push comes to shove nothing I have done (including the huge amounts of food,) will overcome the basic distrust.

Thanks as well to the pointers about Sarah Westen, she's just up the road to me so will contact her.

Will look into the magnesium, (but need to Google why though), I was already thinking about some kind of supplements as she isn't a "good doer" and this winter has taken it's toll.

And I have used clicker training, it's the one thing that worked in my situation. Field + frightened pony, it struck me from reading up on it that she wasn't so different from a "large marine animal".

Maybe I'm just over thinking it all.
Yesterday was bizarre more than frightening, it came out of the blue. She's not frightening at all, in some ways a few more bad manners through over confidence would be a positive sign. You know, pushing you with her nose because you have a carrot in your pocket sort of thing.

 

[PonyFeet10]

My pony was exactly the same when I first got her although she had been beaten to the point where you couldn't catch her, couldn't touch her etc etc.. Although when she was restrained by head collar and rope you were able to lead her, brush her (even though she would shake she would allow you to do so reluctantly).. It took me about 6 years to fully gain her trust - she transformed from a petrified shaking mess to a calm trusting pony who comes to call to see if you have something nice for her. She still remains slightly head shy and will do for the rest of her life although you can at least stroke her face for a couple of seconds now without a panic. At the end of it all, it is an amazing reward and I would do it over again if I had to, she was my second pony (first I'd only owned a month as it was boulshy and rather dangerous - doped on viewing). I've owned her for 11 years this June and she will stay with me forever

 

[nostromo70]

Dry Rot, the thing with Jack (my horse) is, he will go through gates and smallish spaces but will rush. So you need to make sure your not in the way, having said that he is very respectful of you and won't intentionally barge or bump
into you. He has other issues like he doesn't jump, doesn't like poles on the ground. But i wouldn't swap him for the world. I'm just a happy hacker.
Going back to original posters problems, it really is a long process, but is very rewarding.

 

[Nitro mouse]

She will get better, but it will take time and you haven't had her a very long. It sounds like you have made progress with her, there are some great suggestions already made. My wee mare was exactly the same, one thing which has helped chill her out was Dodsen and Horrell Stroppy Mare. Total character transformation in Mouse, after about three weeks she just mellowed and seemed to grow in confidence.... I have put a lot of time and work in with her too, and she loves going for walks in hand. Just give her time and I am sure she will give you so much back in return..good luck x

 

[Dry Rot]

Dry Rot, the thing with Jack (my horse) is, he will go through gates and smallish spaces but will rush. So you need to make sure your not in the way, having said that he is very respectful of you and won't intentionally barge or bump
into you. He has other issues like he doesn't jump, doesn't like poles on the ground. But i wouldn't swap him for the world. I'm just a happy hacker.
Going back to original posters problems, it really is a long process, but is very rewarding.

As others have said, it is mostly time and repetition. Use a rope head collar, practice pressure and release, and go through that gateway again and again until he takes his time.

Most animals are good at anticipating and once they discover that doing something a certain way means they don't have to do it again, they get the idea! Same thing if doing something leads to something they like. We use hard feed here during the winter but there are no free lunches!

I posted elsewhere how I introduced my youngsters to jumping. I fed them inside a small enclosure, then laid a rail on the ground at the gate so they had to step over it. The rail was gradually raised and in a couple of weeks they were all jumping -- except one who barked his shins when the rail was at 6 inches and convinced himself it just couldn't be done. He did learn eventually though it made us all laugh at the time. What is more, the ponies were hopping in during the day just to check if there was any grub left! Letting them learn by themselves is a great way of training. Our foals are already self-loading into a trailer because they know there will be food in there. But Highlands will do anything for food!

 

[domane]

Here are Nostromo and Jack coming over a "2ft pole" Jack was just being super-cautious!