Are there some conditions you wouldn't even treat?

I suspect my threshold for involving the vet at all is higher than many on here. The herd are out 24/7, and don't get much fussing over. As a result, most things that time and turnout will fix get exactly that.

I will use box rest if I need to (wound management, for example), but I'd try to avoid putting a pony through an operation, or even a long-term change of management that would make them miserable. If keeping a pony is making my life difficult, and his uncomfortable, then the right answer is to call it a day.

There are plenty of conditions which respond so well to being out 24/7 with no schooling on soft surfaces, or dusty bedding, that putting them out can be an effective 'cure' in itself.
 
I wouldn't treat if I couldn't see a favourable outcome for the horse.

Old pony's case was/is borderline. It's been a long road, and if we knew how long the road was going to be we probably wouldn't have started down it (hindsight is 20/20!). But to see him now back to his old self, field sound and happy charging up and down with his friends, I can't bring myself to regret it.
 
I've been in the "throw everything at it" camp for the last 9 or so years and now I'm just exhausted.

Somebody I greatly trust and admire - and who's helped us so much on this journey - was telling me about something that could help, but even she could see that it just wasn't registering. 6 months ago I'd have been jumping at the chance but now... I just can't face the getting my hopes up and being disappointed again. He's OK and happy enough so we'll just leave it at that.

That said, if I could have my time again, I would totally throw everything at it.
 
I couldn't stand by and watch my girls in pain which they don't understand and put then through surgical procedures with no guaranteed outcome. Possibly surprisingly, my vet agrees with me, particularly re colic surgery, which he has no faith in at all.

I adore them but would rather lose them than see them suffer.
 
Its like a lot of things, just because you "can", doesn't mean that you "should". The problem is that veterinary advances are now able to give owners greater options, but to me, if a horse is clearly in pain, or distress, or is of an age where further intervention would be unkind rather than kind, then the humane option should be sought as a matter of priority rather than doing something just because it is an option.
 
Thank goodness for this thread and the sensible people who have posted. I definitely agree with MIJODS just because it can doesn't mean it should be done.
 
Mine had better hope she doesn't develop anything else. Ringbone in all 4 feet, collateral ligament damage right fore, suspensory ligament damage left fore, ems, had liver disease and positive for lyme. She's now as sound as she'll ever be but it's been a long road here.
Emotionally and financially I would struggle to treat much else (beyond stitches/antibiotic jobs)
Ordinarily I think it would depend on the horse, what work they'd been in, how long I'd had them and the prognosis.
 
My guys are all veterans now, albeit all in work, so this may affect my decision making. ..

Also only one out of three (the accident prone one) is insured.

Surgery for colic definitely not.
Something that absolutely required months and months of box rest definitely not..

Other than that I would take vets advice as i trust my vet not to intervene unnecessarily. ..

Fiona
 
nato said:
I don't have a list of anything I wouldn't treat. I have a list of things I need to consider before making a decision to treat:

1. Type of treatment - for example a corticosteroid injection for Kissing Spines is not the same as an operation
2. Rehab involved - as someone mentioned lengthy box rest is not ideal, and how long the rehab will last is another question
3. Prognosis following treatment - what quality of life will the horse have and how likely is the issue to recur or cause problems?
4. Cost of treatment - I love my horses but I can't blow all my money on treating a condition that may not result in the horse returning to full health
5. Age and condition of the horse - older horse it might be kinder to just PTS
6. Severity of condition - this ties into the treatment required and prognosis
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this
 
I agree with the list. We had the 21yr old pony we recently bought PTS as he had chronic laminitus. He was going to end up spending months on box rest just to get possibly field sound, but then have to wear a muzzle 24/7 or be in a sandy paddock on his own and miserable. I personally, see that as a ridiculous expense and no life for them. He was also looking pissed off so decided it was the time.
 
Sometimes things get seriously expensive in bits .
So C had a KS op it was expensive but he's an expensive horse with a lot of valuable training and experiance he has the op apart from a couple hiccups with a swollen sheath leading to a colic his recovery and rehab was copybook.
He came back to full work and jumping and felt super .
He then had an accident in the field long long story but he had broken his 6th rib his recovery started straight forward but ended up less so .
It's ended up seriously expensive 12 k since December.
Would I have gone for the KS op if I had a crystal ball in November when I took the decision to operate I don't know .
But it's hard to stop once your two thirds of the way down the line .
But I have the horse ,he has his life he looks and feels great again and I have my fingers tightly crossed .
 
Some great answers here. I think part of the problem as myjodsr2blinkintite has pointed out, is the vets who want to try everything especially as new treatments are being developed all the time. My biggest regret with an animal was out 3 year old Pyrenean mountain dog who had lymphoma. He was in so much pain he would howl. Vets all thought it was musclular and he even had an op on his elbow for it. By the time it was diagnosed he was riddled with it but we were persuaded to try chemotherapy by the top veterinary hospital we were taking him to. They failed to spot it was in his brain and he was in so much pain in his head he couldn't lay his head down. Still they wanted to try more treatment! It breaks my heart what he suffered and I would never give a dog chemo again. We had to beg them to put him to sleep in the end and they were still suggesting more treatment. Disgusting!
 
Wagtail said:
Some great answers here. I think part of the problem as myjodsr2blinkintite has pointed out, is the vets who want to try everything especially as new treatments are being developed all the time. My biggest regret with an animal was out 3 year old Pyrenean mountain dog who had lymphoma. He was in so much pain he would howl. Vets all thought it was musclular and he even had an op on his elbow for it. By the time it was diagnosed he was riddled with it but we were persuaded to try chemotherapy by the top veterinary hospital we were taking him to. They failed to spot it was in his brain and he was in so much pain in his head he couldn't lay his head down. Still they wanted to try more treatment! It breaks my heart what he suffered and I would never give a dog chemo again. We had to beg them to put him to sleep in the end and they were still suggesting more treatment. Disgusting!
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We had a six yo dog with cancer .
He was referred to a centre of excellence for diagnosis before I got home ( it was a fair drive )I got a call from my vet saying it was liver cancer and they where going to start chemo straight away .
I took five minutes to think and rang my vet back to tell them I was on my back for him.
I was so upset I could not operate my phone to find their number I had to ring my vet to get them to call .
I calmed myself down drove back and had a fairly unpleasant time getting him back as I bundled him into the car one of the nurses touched my arm and whispered you're doing the right thing .
I had the weekend with him on morphine he was to pts at home on the morning .
I so sad you that experiance Wagtail it's so easy to be swept along by the experts so hard when your heart broken and upset .
I learnt a lot from that experiance .
 
Wagtail said:
Some great answers here. I think part of the problem as myjodsr2blinkintite has pointed out, is the vets who want to try everything especially as new treatments are being developed all the time. My biggest regret with an animal was out 3 year old Pyrenean mountain dog who had lymphoma. He was in so much pain he would howl. Vets all thought it was musclular and he even had an op on his elbow for it. By the time it was diagnosed he was riddled with it but we were persuaded to try chemotherapy by the top veterinary hospital we were taking him to. They failed to spot it was in his brain and he was in so much pain in his head he couldn't lay his head down. Still they wanted to try more treatment! It breaks my heart what he suffered and I would never give a dog chemo again. We had to beg them to put him to sleep in the end and they were still suggesting more treatment. Disgusting!
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Oh, how traumatic for all concerned; I know the awfulness of this as our dearly beloved Wolfhound was diagnosed with the same a few years ago. We put her down immediately with her tail still wagging. I know we did the right thing, but it broke all our hearts.
 
Goldenstar said:
We had a six yo dog with cancer .
He was referred to a centre of excellence for diagnosis before I got home ( it was a fair drive )I got a call from my vet saying it was liver cancer and they where going to start chemo straight away .
I took five minutes to think and rang my vet back to tell them I was on my back for him.
I was so upset I could not operate my phone to find their number I had to ring my vet to get them to call .
I calmed myself down drove back and had a fairly unpleasant time getting him back as I bundled him into the car one of the nurses touched my arm and whispered you're doing the right thing .
I had the weekend with him on morphine he was to pts at home on the morning .
I so sad you that experiance Wagtail it's so easy to be swept along by the experts so hard when your heart broken and upset .
I learnt a lot from that experiance .
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Well done for rescuing him GS. I wish I had done that for my boy. It's probably the biggest regret of my life.
 
Cortez said:
Oh, how traumatic for all concerned; I know the awfulness of this as our dearly beloved Wolfhound was diagnosed with the same a few years ago. We put her down immediately with her tail still wagging. I know we did the right thing, but it broke all our hearts.
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Yes, you certainly did the right thing without a doubt.
 
My mare had EGS at 8 years old. She is now 25. She has had a full life with me and although she has some other, age induced, not EGS induced, health issues now I wouldn't have had her PTS at the time, unless she was distressed, until I was sure I had done all I could to save her.

I feel every decision has to be taken independently.

P.S. Her brother, who also had EGS, was PTS as he was so terribly ill.
 
Everything that is on everyone's lists.

Tried kissing spines operation, horse was PTS having fits six months later, probably unconnected, but who knows, I've heard of another like it locally. I would do a tie back, life changing for the horse and easy recovery. But no other serious surgery.
I wouldn't joint flush a horse that was old or had any other chronic problems and I wouldn't pay for long term expensive drug treatment (over £500 ish a year, say).

No OCD surgery unless the horse is guaranteed not to get early arthritis in the joint.

Thinking of new developments, I would not do any surgery that hasn't been around long enough to know the long term outlook. Only recently have their been any longer term cases after ligament snip for kissing spines, for example, and word on the grapevine seems to be that they aren't as successful as they seem to be short term.
 
We took a cat to the vet with breathing difficulties a month back. We were offered intensive treatment for heart failure which we turned down. On accepting our decision to put him to sleep there and then, the vet was obliged to point out to us that his heart was so weak that he might die when they prepared his leg for the jab!
 
ycbm said:
We took a cat to the vet with breathing difficulties a month back. We were offered intensive treatment for heart failure which we turned down. On accepting our decision to put him to sleep there and then, the vet was obliged to point out to us that his heart was so weak that he might die when they prepared his leg for the jab!
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It IS a business after all. I'm not surprised. So sorry ycbm. Hope cat has recovered?
 
Chemo and its side effects are bad enough for humans to cope with, when they understand the need, to put an animal, that doesn't have the ability to say "enough is enough: through it is awful imo. I'm another who would have to think long and hard about colic surgery and certainly wouldn't do that for the older two, Anything with a prolonged box rest treatment and/or likely chronic ill health would be non starter, I think, but would have to look at each case by itself and on its own merits and only with a vet I know and trust.
 
re EGS, there are degrees of EGS and at the Dick Vet at least they make a decision based on several physiological factors, the horse's demeanour (and I've seen some relatively bad ones really fight) as well as owner etc and anything other than chronics are PTS anyway. I know many EGS horses that have gone on lead good, productive lives for many years. Of course, a few do not but its not a call you can make until its in front of you.
 
Agree with above - my mare came down with EGS very slowly, and recovered, the vet thinks, because it did come on so slowly. It took 6 months to get her weight back up, and another 6 months to get her fit, but she's back to full work now.
 
As others have said it depends on the horse. Current one I would not put through extensive boxrest as he hates it and we end up wanting to kill each other (about 2 weeks is our combined tolerance!). This in mind I wouldn't go for colic surgery or treatment of broken legs as I just don't think he'd cope with the recovery time. Me and the insurance have spent a combined total probably approaching just under 10k treating other conditions that do not require boxrest though including sending him to the other end of the country and back. In essence anything that has the potential to heal with time and leave him field sound with minimal needs for pain relief I'd give a shot as long as he could still have his normal turnout routine (I DO have to restrict his grass intake in Spring / Summer due to laminitis risk but we find ways to convince him this is acceptable)
 
Anything where pain could not be successfully managed. I wish I had a list of dosage for meds as I have heard conflicting "maximums" and "best drug to use" from different vets, in crisis situations, which is very stressful when you have to make an informed choice.

I wouldn't do colic surgery, due to location and not box rest for long periods if there wasn't a very good chance of a good outcome. And I wouldn't hesitate to pts for grass sickness, even although my neighbours young mare made an excellent recovery after being treated.
 
Also re chemo I think that's something that needs looking at on a case by case basis. For the pony probably not as he has cushings and a tendency to over-react to anything and everything chemical wise so I get the feeling it would probably push him into laminitis. For the cat as long as he was relatively bright then yes I probably would give it a go but I have the advantage of working somewhere that one of the vets has an interest in this and so it's something we do a lot and so I see both sides of it. We see some animals do really really well and resume normal life with minimal side effects during treatment (doses are lower than for humans as you're right it would be totally unethical to make animals go thru what some human cancer patients do) and some that do get poorly with it and require treatments being delayed or even stopped altogether but I think it absolutely should be an individual decision made by the owner. The vet has the responsibility to let them know what is out there and available but it should definitely be up to the owner, knowing their animal, to make what they feel is the best choice for them
 
Broken bones
Something requiring months of box rest (ie blown tendon/ligaments with poor recovery expectation)
Surgical Colic
Persistent colic
Constant pain relief required

I am at present still pondering my old boy who has just been diagnosed with a high acth result and who has stared prascend. It's a route I didn't want to go down but I am trialling it at present but if the meds start to cause financial Problems or he doesn't improve then I will call it
 
I think it depends on the horse. I have a 10 year old retired due to KS, SI, hock and neck arthritis. If anything like colic surgery was needed then we wouldn't do it. My vet is amazing and guided me when treatment wasn't working and suggested we called it a day. He said we could pts or we could try retirement, he's checke regularly by the vet and he's happy so as long as he stays that way he will be here. But there are things I would treat my other lad for that I wouldn't this one.
 
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