Are these heels underrun?

Christmas Crumpet

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As title - am quite concerned about these feet now. I just wanted some opinions before I ring the vet and ask for horse to have feet xrayed and the angles checked. I have a feeling that her feet are not helping her at the moment. She doesn't appear lame at all.










Photos aren't brilliant as they were taken in the dark last night but they give you an idea. Horse has a slipping stifle on her off hind, has been stumbling on both front feet (the off hind and near fore are connected according to the physio) but off fore stumbling has only been happening since she was shod last Friday. She feels sound to ride, trotted up sound for vet and fine hind flexions but is very crabby coming downhill and feels as though she is tucking her hindquarters underneath herself (if that makes sense). Vet thinks she's fine. Physio thinks not quite so fine. I think she feels dreadful to ride - lacking in power behind at times, funny downhill, a lot of stumbling in both front legs but at the moment, more in the off fore. Fine to pick up feet etc although does wobble diagonal hind leg when opposite foreleg picked up for the farrier. Farrier seems happy with feet. I'm not sure I am.

Any opinions would be great.
 

Meowy Catkin

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So the Vet and the farrier haven't looked at the hooves and mentioned the awful hoof balance then? You don't need X-rays to see that they're awful and are shod with no heel support, which just encourages the hoof capsule to under-run more.

I would not be happy at all with those hooves and if the horse was mine, she would be getting a BF rehab at home. I'm lucky that I now have a BF friendly farrier.
 

cptrayes

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Yes, they are dreadful, particularly on the rear - look at the angle of the 'downwards' lines in the hoof, they are almost horizontal on the back. They should be parallel to the ones at the toe, more or less. It would not surprise me if your horse has negative coffin bone angle on the back feet and a sore back. The fronts aren't a lot better.
 

Christmas Crumpet

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This is what the feet looked like in June…

Off hind

Near hind

Looking at the difference is pretty alarming. I asked the farrier if he was happy with her feet on Friday because they looked like the heels were getting quite under run and he said they are fine and the feet are still changing shape since she came to us in May. She has been shod every 5 weeks by him. I just don't have any faith in any of the professionals anymore. Feeling pretty miserable about it all.
 

cptrayes

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This is what the feet looked like in June…

Off hind

Near hind

Looking at the difference is pretty alarming. I asked the farrier if he was happy with her feet on Friday because they looked like the heels were getting quite under run and he said they are fine and f the feet are still changing shape since she came to us in May. She has been shod every 5 weeks by him. I just don't have any faith in any of the professionals anymore. Feeling pretty miserable about it all.

You are right where i was before i went barefoot, and I've never looked back. If you want to try it, we will help you. If not, you definitely need a new farrier I'm afraid, if he can't see the damage the shoes he's putting on are doing.


As a little incentive, it is normal for people to report that stumbling stops as soon as the shoes come off :)
 

ester

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Knowing the profile of Frank's feet I would second what CPT says about the negative coffin angles. I would certainly get xrays and go from there as I think if you leave it and end up with a lameness you will kick yourself. Fwiw my farrier did improve the exterior look of the feet/heels with shoeing but taking them off certainly helped more.
 

Christmas Crumpet

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Please can you confirm that her feet weren't too dreadful in June?

I don't understand how with regular shoeing he could ruin her feet like that? How does the heel get so under run?

Would the state of her feet explain a few things such as the stumbling in front, the way she feels going downhill etc? I have tried my best to do my very best by this horse and I feel as though I am banging my head against a brick wall at times. I am trying so hard not to cry at my desk but failing pretty miserably although I know that me being pathetic isn't going to help at all!!!!
 

Meowy Catkin

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If you sort the hooves out, I would be surprised if all of the issues you have didn't improve or even disappear.

Each time the farrier balanced the hoof before applying the shoe, he didn't balance it quite right. So with each shoeing the balance got slightly worse.
 

cptrayes

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The state of her feet totally explains how she is moving.

Yes, they were radically better in June, she had good heels.

It is a bit shocking how much they have changed. I am wondering if it is possible that she has either back or hock issues that have caused her to weight her hind feet so that they have under run, which has then produced a knock on effect at the front. ?
 

Meowy Catkin

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I'm sure that CPT remembers my mare's hooves when they were terribly under-run. There was nothing wrong with the horse, it was purely the Farrier. It's actually scary how quickly a Farrier can deform a healthy (or unhealthy) horse's hooves. Didn't that study that was on EponaTV show that two shoeing were enough to negatively affect hooves?
 

Christmas Crumpet

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First step taken - vet called and just waiting to hear back when I can take her in and I will get x rays done and we will show them to the farrier so he can see what has been done. I have got tons of photos of her feet which I will show the vet too. Ironic isn't it that the farrier said she had awful feet when she came because the toes were too long and now look what's happened.

I am utterly fed up of using professionals who are utterly rubbish at their jobs.

Thank you everyone for your advice - it is very much appreciated x
 

ester

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Least you spotted it before she is lame, some of us didn't ;).

Out of interest were the fronts shod with toe or quarter clips when you got her?
 

BethH

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Please let us know how you get on - my horse was destroyed when I changed farrier, he has now been 18mths barefoot and is only just starting to get his heels back underneath him, he is much happier in himself tho so I have no regrets about being shoeless although it caused some problems - he was shuffling by the time we took the shoes off poor boy. The real damage was done over just 3 shoeings when the farrier let his apprentice do the work without really watching what she was doing, mind you she only did what he trained her to do and he was a master farrier. We think my horse now has spavins which may well have been lurking but the poor foot balance then trying to correct it caused him a big problem. I am a fan of barefoot but please go carefully if you think there is any other issue with your horse as in retrospect I think I should have had some remedial work done in shoes to improve the foot balance and with his heels in a better state then transitioned to barefoot.

But very good luck - it is great you care so much, your horse is lucky to have you and you will get lots of kind and helpful advice on here. Before you rip the shoes off have a good look at his diet, if he gets anything other than fibre he will be more footsore, sugar like mix is a shocker on their feet, best to get him off it beforehand. Good luck
 

cptrayes

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I'm sure that CPT remembers my mare's hooves when they were terribly under-run. There was nothing wrong with the horse, it was purely the Farrier. It's actually scary how quickly a Farrier can deform a healthy (or unhealthy) horse's hooves. Didn't that study that was on EponaTV show that two shoeing were enough to negatively affect hooves?

Oh god yes, awful pictures of your horse's feet, much worse than these :'( you've done really well with them.
 

Christmas Crumpet

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Ester - she was shod with toe clips in front when I got her then the farrier shod her with quarter clips in front and natural balance shoes behind. We then had a bit of a to do about the natural balance shoes so he then shod her in toe clips in front and normal shoes behind.

She has Fast Fibre, Dengie Unmolassed chaff and hi fibre nuts with Pro Hoof & micronised linseed with an ulcer supplement in and ad lib hay - I think the diet is ok.

For all I know she is bilaterally lame in front - the stumbling on both legs is a major concern. I can't actually believe that given how attentive I feel I have been with the farrier asking him questions about the feet etc that we are in this position. I feel pretty ***** to be honest and also a bit pathetic given I burst into tears on the phone to the vet's receptionist. I think she thought the horse had broken its leg!!
 

cptrayes

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First step taken - vet called and just waiting to hear back when I can take her in and I will get x rays done and we will show them to the farrier so he can see what has been done. I have got tons of photos of her feet which I will show the vet too. Ironic isn't it that the farrier said she had awful feet when she came because the toes were too long and now look what's happened.

I am utterly fed up of using professionals who are utterly rubbish at their jobs.

Thank you everyone for your advice - it is very much appreciated x


Be prepared for the vet to find negative coffin bone angles and to recommend wedge shoes. They would help immediately, but long term are likely to cause more problems by squashing the heels even more. You can improve heels in shoes, but it is much, much easier without them unless the horse also has thin soles and flat feet.

If you go the barefoot route, do come back and let us tell you about feed , supplements, movement and boots :)


Edit , your feed seems spot on.
 
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Goldenstar

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If you have trouble with the vet and the remedial shoeing thing if you are committed to the BF route just say I can't cope this is all just too awful I am taking them off and turning her away .
I recommend the feet first book for an overview it helped me a lot at first to get an overview of the thinking.
Getting the right person to oversee the foot care is really key .
 

be positive

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I am shocked that the farrier feels the feet are fine and presumably that he has "improved" them since he started shoeing her, they looked fairly decent in the early photos and have certainly become underrun since then, it is frightening to think you are trusting the professionals, and that includes your vet, when they cant see what is in front of them, it seems they are saying that as she is not lame she must be fine rather than looking at keeping her sound long term, your physio seems to be the only one that is looking at the horse.

The suggestion by GS to throw your hands up and say the shoes are coming off and she is going out would mean you can move on to different professionals who will be a clean slate.
 

amandap

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I am thinking of sugars in grass and hay, so looking at grazing times and possibly soaking hay or getting hay tested for non structural carbs and soaking if above 10% non structural carbs, ie. a laminitic diet and see if it helps. It looks like the toes would be long if not rasped off, so the whole hoof may be running forward. Just something to consider in the mix.
 

Christmas Crumpet

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Well the farrier and I have had a chat and he says...

To be honest the feet are a lot better than they were when u first got her toes a lot shorter sometimes u can't correct collapsed heels just maintain them but with shorter toes now will give more chance of them improving as feet come she's got pretty good feet.
If u have a look at the length of toe compared to length of heel in both her feet are actually in better preportion now than they were back in June now the heels are just under half the length of toe but back in June the heels were about a third the length of toe.

I am quite confused!!
 

NellRosk

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For all I know she is bilaterally lame in front - the stumbling on both legs is a major concern. I can't actually believe that given how attentive I feel I have been with the farrier asking him questions about the feet etc that we are in this position. I feel pretty ***** to be honest and also a bit pathetic given I burst into tears on the phone to the vet's receptionist. I think she thought the horse had broken its leg!!

Please don't feel like this, your horse is so lucky to have such an attentive and caring owner to pick up on this. I too would advocate a bf rehab, her diet sounds excellent which will really help her. I'm not sure if you know much about bf but there's tons and tons of threads on here and the guys on the Phoenix forum are lovely and so helpful too. Best of luck :)
 

Crumpet

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I think that's one of the worst jobs I've seen a farrier do, those feet are not balanced and the shoes look far too small for the feet. I think you're doing the right thing by thinking about x rays for clarification of angles and I wouldn't look at shoes as an option for her until she's got some good growth on her feet and a better trimmer/farrier can work out what's going to work best. Poor girl must be tight and sore as hell if she's been in those shoes for a while, thank heavens you're trying to sort her out, many wouldn't and probably wouldn't think anything a farrier said or did was wrong.
 

dalesponydiva

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I am dismayed that a qualified farrier thinks that her feet are acceptable and that he has improved them. Thank goodness you haven't just accepted his "professional opinion". Good luck with her and hoping she will soon be better. Respecting you for questioning and speaking out.
 

cptrayes

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Well the farrier and I have had a chat and he says...

To be honest the feet are a lot better than they were when u first got her toes a lot shorter sometimes u can't correct collapsed heels just maintain them but with shorter toes now will give more chance of them improving as feet come she's got pretty good feet.
If u have a look at the length of toe compared to length of heel in both her feet are actually in better preportion now than they were back in June now the heels are just under half the length of toe but back in June the heels were about a third the length of toe.

I am quite confused!!

Her toes are only short because he has chopped them off with a rasp.

Her heels have collapsed since he has been doing her.

I'm afraid you've not got much option but to sack him :'(
 
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