Are these heels underrun?

I really can't work out what he thinks is better than the before shots .
It's really scary.
Promise me OP if you do decide to go for the remedial shoes thing you won't let him do them.
 
I promise!! We have quite a few good farriers round here but we'll look at X-rays first before deciding anything.

Horse has been barefoot before so I'll contact her old owners and see what they say.
 
I showed my hubby who is a farrier your current and previous photos and he asked me to comment on his behalf. He said that the previous photos (June) show that the foot had a slightly lower heel but more importantly that the toe had been squared off indicating a problem in the back end.
Comparing those to the photos currently that problem seems to have been alleviated. As for the comments about balance he would like to know how they arrived at their comments when they only have a lateral aspect to view. Also can they substantiate their remarks with what qualifications they hold in farriery or veterinary. I would suggest that you ask your own vet for their opinion on the shoeing rather than people via photos on a forum.
There are many reasons as to why a farrier shoes with length or without length, because every horse and foot is different and in some horses shoeing with extra length and support can actually cause the heels to collapse. My hubby is a very open minded farrier who takes a great interest in both barefoot and shod work and he gets really annoyed when he reads unsubstantiated comments on foums such as this.
The farriers work that has been done on your horse has changed the foot dynamics.
The squaring of the toe in June is the picture of concern, as to the reason why this was occurring. Does your horse still square off his toe towards the end of the shoeing period? If it is continuing to do so there is quite possibly a problem higher up.
 
Not interested in starting a fight but people have every right to discuss and debate this .
I don't get and will never do the we must never question the professional thing be it a vet a farrier a saddle fitter etc .
I discovered years ago that trusting farriers blindly may well end up in your horse on a one way trip to the kennels .
I stand by what I said shoes won't help this horse IMO .
 
before
IMG_2285.jpg


after
IMG_3626.jpg


The heel is clearly more under-run now.
 
Of course one can discuss and question a professional and often people get a second professional opinion. The danger here is of non professionals passing judgment via photos of only the lateral aspect of some feet.
A vet should always give honest advice regarding shoeing and will of course be able to investigate and diagnose any underlying issues there may be.
 
Op, I have read your op and seen the pics, I have read no other responses, and there are many far better placed with more knowledge and experience who can guide you but I will say this before I read further, these are three observations that scream from each photo. Yes, you are correct, the heels are significantly underrun, secondly all four hooves are bull nosed, fourthly there are no event lines which indicate to me that this is an ongoing concern, nothing has been done to prevent or change this. Im not having a pop at you, yes as owners there are always things that we could do for the better... what I am most importantly getting at is that you have a farrier who has shod a horse and allowed this to happen over time, making no changes for the better, only consistently for the bad. secondly and disgustingly any farrier who looks at those hooves (which even to my inexperienced eye have a lot of room for improvement) and says they are fine, or at the very least doesnt point out that they are not fine... would never ever be allowed near my horse again. There are lots of things to change in those hooves and the very first for me would be to sack your farrier
 
cptrayes said:
Be prepared for the vet to find negative coffin bone angles and to recommend wedge shoes. They would help immediately, but long term are likely to cause more problems by squashing the heels even more. You can improve heels in shoes, but it is much, much easier without them unless the horse also has thin soles and flat feet.

If you go the barefoot route, do come back and let us tell you about feed , supplements, movement and boots :)


Edit , your feed seems spot on.
Click to expand...

On the subject of wedges, I completely agree... I took care of a mare with coffin arthritis that had been religiously shod in wedges... my farrier was great and gradually weaned her down to flats then off with the shoes... totally sound with dedication, care and the right exercise and diet
 
YasandCrystal said:
Of course one can discuss and question a professional and often people get a second professional opinion. The danger here is of non professionals passing judgment via photos of only the lateral aspect of some feet.
A vet should always give honest advice regarding shoeing and will of course be able to investigate and diagnose any underlying issues there may be.
Click to expand...

A vet should, the question is would the vet .
It's my experiance many vets won't give frank advice about shoeing unless you really push them.
 
In my mare's case two Vets thought that her hooves were fine. I sacked the Farrier and got a new Farrier and Vet 3 out together and they both nearly fainted at the state of my mare's hooves. I *knew* the hoof balance was wrong and had been told again and again that I was wrong by the first farrier and the first two Vets. In the end the second Farrier apologised to me on behalf of his profession.
 
carolineb said:
Well the farrier and I have had a chat and he says...

To be honest the feet are a lot better than they were when u first got her toes a lot shorter sometimes u can't correct collapsed heels just maintain them but with shorter toes now will give more chance of them improving as feet come she's got pretty good feet.
If u have a look at the length of toe compared to length of heel in both her feet are actually in better preportion now than they were back in June now the heels are just under half the length of toe but back in June the heels were about a third the length of toe.

I am quite confused!!
Click to expand...

I have just read this comment... all I can say is that I cant say anything to this... If I did I would be banned and since I am organising Secret Santa that would not be good.... seriously, only swearwords and insults in my head right now!
 
YasandCrystal said:
I showed my hubby who is a farrier your current and previous photos and he asked me to comment on his behalf. He said that the previous photos (June) show that the foot had a slightly lower heel but more importantly that the toe had been squared off indicating a problem in the back end.
Comparing those to the photos currently that problem seems to have been alleviated. As for the comments about balance he would like to know how they arrived at their comments when they only have a lateral aspect to view. Also can they substantiate their remarks with what qualifications they hold in farriery or veterinary. I would suggest that you ask your own vet for their opinion on the shoeing rather than people via photos on a forum.
There are many reasons as to why a farrier shoes with length or without length, because every horse and foot is different and in some horses shoeing with extra length and support can actually cause the heels to collapse. My hubby is a very open minded farrier who takes a great interest in both barefoot and shod work and he gets really annoyed when he reads unsubstantiated comments on foums such as this.
The farriers work that has been done on your horse has changed the foot dynamics.
The squaring of the toe in June is the picture of concern, as to the reason why this was occurring. Does your horse still square off his toe towards the end of the shoeing period? If it is continuing to do so there is quite possibly a problem higher up.
Click to expand...

I said in my first post that the horse has a slipping stifle on that leg and that she is stumbling on both front feet although her off fore worse since she's been shod. She did square off her toes completely in that shoeing cycle and it was the only time she had Natural Balance shoes on behind. Since then she has had normal quarter clips on and the squaring off has reduced each time she has been shod. The horse dragging her toes has been a concern of mine all along and it was one of the reasons I got the vet in the first place way back in the summer. I believe there is something else going on higher up as well as the stifle but until the horse goes in for a proper work up, we won't know what it is.

I want to be able to cover every aspect to find out why she isn't right and stumbling and foot balance go hand in hand hence my asking about her feet and my fears about her heels running forwards which, to my eye, they are and they weren't earlier on this year when I got her. The vet is involved as I have already said and hopefully we will get to the bottom of it when she goes in to be looked at. To be fair to the vet, she only saw the horse being trotted up and flexions done last week and I am the one that rides the horse every day so am far more likely to notice more subtle issues on a day to day basis. The vet could only go on what she could see that day.

I asked for advice on here because there are other far more experienced people with feet than myself and I wanted opinions - good and bad. I have been talking to the farrier about what he thinks too. At the end of the day I just want what is best for my lovely horse and I will do everything I can to make sure she is happy and sound. If I was ill, I would always ask for a second opinion on my diagnosis - I do the same with my horse.
 
YasandCrystal said:
I showed my hubby who is a farrier your current and previous photos and he asked me to comment on his behalf. He said that the previous photos (June) show that the foot had a slightly lower heel but more importantly that the toe had been squared off indicating a problem in the back end.
Comparing those to the photos currently that problem seems to have been alleviated. As for the comments about balance he would like to know how they arrived at their comments when they only have a lateral aspect to view. Also can they substantiate their remarks with what qualifications they hold in farriery or veterinary. I would suggest that you ask your own vet for their opinion on the shoeing rather than people via photos on a forum.
There are many reasons as to why a farrier shoes with length or without length, because every horse and foot is different and in some horses shoeing with extra length and support can actually cause the heels to collapse. My hubby is a very open minded farrier who takes a great interest in both barefoot and shod work and he gets really annoyed when he reads unsubstantiated comments on foums such as this.
The farriers work that has been done on your horse has changed the foot dynamics.
The squaring of the toe in June is the picture of concern, as to the reason why this was occurring. Does your horse still square off his toe towards the end of the shoeing period? If it is continuing to do so there is quite possibly a problem higher up.
Click to expand...


Thank god I don't need to use farriers any more.
 
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Yasandcrystal I don't hugely like the june feet either and think they could be better, I certainly like the heel on the now feet less though and am not sure how current farrier can deem it better, I actually find that the most worrying thing - if he had said yes the heels are problematic at the moment and I might try x to improve them...
 
That standard of farriery is normal.

The shoe has enough length and width, the coronet is at the correct angle and with good laminar attachment, the pedal bone will not have a negative palmar angle. The toe wall is not bullnosed; the toe has been dubbed off with a rasp but there is some underrun on the heels.

It is difficult for a farrier to rebalance or maintain DP balance over a six week shoeing cycle as the toe (and therefore heel) will run forward more than they can be comfortably brought back in one go.

Most people will simply devolve responsibility to the professional, but if you want to see hooves as they should be, the fact is you have to run them without shoes.

Only then will you get the "smart tissues" working through direct stimulation, see the mechanism function, the frog contact the ground, ditch the peripheral loading, say bye bye to contracted heels, cut concussion, be able to trim anytime without the presence of a shoe, feel those warm legs, admire that sole concavity or stand in wonder at the magnificent hoof that the horse can produce himself if you would only put him in a position to do that.

There must be more, but perhaps the best bit is being able to laugh at people who tell you that barefoot horses can't do roadwork.
 
I am rather shocked that two farriers think that those hooves are ok. Of course they couldn't be totally transformed since June, but should be showing significant improvement by now, not deterioration. You don't need to see the whole hoof to know there's a problem, there are no hoof balance/conformation issues that would require the heel to become more underun in order to fix them!

I get so annoyed when people say these things should be left to professionals, the opposite of this is true. There are good and truly awful in every profession. How on earth are you supposed to tell the difference if you haven't got a clue what good hoof balance, correct saddle fit etc etc looks like? I once had a farrier tell me it was normal for my horses to be lame for 2 days after every shoeing, where would he be if I had believed that??

I'm sure you can get this sorted OP, good luck!
 
if she has been BF before and thus you think will transition with minimal stress, i would go that route first OP.

the great thing about BF is you can always see what foot the horse wants, and can work out what that is trying to tell you about diet/balance/work etc.
 
Ronalda said:
Only then will you get the "smart tissues" working through direct stimulation, see the mechanism function, the frog contact the ground, ditch the peripheral loading, say bye bye to contracted heels, cut concussion, be able to trim anytime without the presence of a shoe, feel those warm legs, admire that sole concavity or stand in wonder at the magnificent hoof that the horse can produce himself if you would only put him in a position to do that.
Click to expand...
Fabulous paragraph.
 
I do agree that with many horse six weeks is just too long between shoeing my norm is five weeks and J get done monthly .
Foot balance is just too compromised by six weeks in most horses.
 
I would take the shoes off immediately and start barefoot until they were sorted. if that means no work, then so be it.
 
Good luck!

Just bear in mind that damage to the navicular bone, if you find any, is normally completely unrelated to a horse's soundness. So if you see any and your vet starts tutting, don't panic. The last estimate I read was if you x ray sound horses, fifty per cent of them would show changes to the navicular bone.
 
Well as expected she is bilaterally lame in front. We didn't look at the hinds because she is going to go back in for xrays and be scoped for ulcers at the same time so today was kept short and sweet. Looked ok trotting up and lunged on soft but very apparent she was landing toe first and also quite pottery in front. Blocked off fore and immediately looked happier but no surprise she was then pottery on near fore. That was enough for today. So vet is going to ring the farrier this evening and talk to him about her findings... she said this isn't the first horse she's dealt with shod like this by the same farrier. She was quite concerned at the state of her heels. Although noone wants anything awful to befall their horses, it is almost slightly gratifying when you are pretty much spot on with the diagnosis.

So back as soon as the gastroscope man comes down to do the scoping (99% sure she has ulcers) and will xray all feet at the same time and go from what we find there. No point in taking half days all the time. Might as well get it all done at once!!
 
She can probably be fixed, but barefoot is definitely the surest way to do it. If we can help, let us know. In many ways, I think bilateral is good and more likely to come right :)
 
It sounds like you have a fab vet. :) I think it's time for a new farrier though.

I hope your horse is sound soon, you've certainly made the first step.

I hope that other owners have more confidence in their opinions after reading this thread. The average owner may not have done farrier training, but if they can see that their horse is not right (eg how you were unhappy about how your horse was now standing) and know that their hooves have altered, they shouldn't let their farrier dismiss their concerns out of hand.
 
cptrayes said:
Be prepared for the vet to find negative coffin bone angles and to recommend wedge shoes. They would help immediately, but long term are likely to cause more problems by squashing the heels even more. You can improve heels in shoes, but it is much, much easier without them unless the horse also has thin soles and flat feet.


If you go the barefoot route, do come back and let us tell you about feed , supplements, movement and boots :)


Edit , your feed seems spot on.
Click to expand...

CPT, interested in what you said about not removing shoes to improve heels if the horse has flat feet and thin soles. Sorry to hijak but would you have a wee look at this thread...http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...-horse-was-sound-got-shod-and-is-now-crippled

pics are on page 4.... I'm thinking of taking his shoes off.
 
CPT has left the forum now, but she has BF transitioned several horses and had them working hard (mainly hunting IIRC), so it is worth looking back over her old posts. :)
 
Faracat said:
If you sort the hooves out, I would be surprised if all of the issues you have didn't improve or even disappear.

Each time the farrier balanced the hoof before applying the shoe, he didn't balance it quite right. So with each shoeing the balance got slightly worse.
Click to expand...

^this
I will be honest I would not ride a horse that stumbles, it is dangerous.
I would get the shoes removed, feed minerals and linseed, cut out sugars, and start long reining on a tarmac road, 10-20 minutes to start with and build up to an hour. Maximum turnout.
There are good farriers, but first try barefoot.
 
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