Are vets money motivated

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Bongo919

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Hi there,

I read an article a few weeks ago about the motivation behind some vets...how they use emotional blackmail to make people spend more money on treatments for their beloved pets (even when there is no hope)...does anybody have experience with this type of thing?
 
no... my vet is pretty realistic and honest about situations... pesemistic if anything... he's a nice vet who'll drop bute etc in if needed on his way past, sometimes even 'briefly' examining horse and not charge a call out / examination fee...
 
I'm a vet and have never personally used that technique.

I'm sure there are vets with questionable morals but only the same as there are in any profession/walk of life. You could say the same about private doctors, lawyers, etc etc. If it's true they're most certainly in the minority and it is best not to generalise (about anything).
 
I have come across it a couple of times, Once when I was work experience at a practice, it made my blood boil how much they were at it.

But I would lik to think its few and far between
 
My vets are amazing. I have the most enormous bill from my regular vet due to my puppy getting very ill on a weekend and needing to stay in for 3 days having lots of tests, then in the same week my pony Lucy became ill and had lots of tests to try to diagnose the problem. They could not diagnose so she ended up going to Liphook for 3 days for lots more tests. I have a bill from liphook to. On arrival at liphook they asked if Lucy was insured. She is not and due to the tests and the care she needed my bill was large. I only earn £80 a week and told them this so they worked out a payment plan so i can pay my bill. My regular vets are waiting for there bill to be paid after Liphook are paid (although i give them any spare cash i have ie all my xmas money) and they are still treating Lucy with what she needs. They always try to keep my costs down as they know my situation but also know i will do anything for my animals and would beg, borrow or steel the money if i had to.
Do these sound like money hungry vets to you? But then it is a small village practice not one of these high flying town ones.
 
The first thing my old vets used to say to me for anything was "have i got insurance"!! Giving the impression that if i didn't my horse wouldn't get the best treatment...
Also it doesn't help their causes when they put their charges up overnight by over 30% to pay for a treatment centre...If they are going to offer extra services then they should pay for them out of their profits not charge the clients more to get it built. This treatment centre was for small animals so I’m never going to get to use it but I had to help pay for it.
I'm no longer with these vets due to the charges. They charged £60 for a call out and to give an example of how expensive their charges were…£8.75 for 8 sachets of Bute!!
Now I have a lovely local (Country Vet) that hasn’t got all the bells and whistles but doesn’t charge me a fortune to cover the costs of expensive equipment I will never need to use…His bute is £4.50 for 8!!!

So yes, like any business Vets need to make money and therefore are money orientated but not all of them do at the expense of the client.
 
I certainly think as soon as some vets know you have insurance it's a licence to print money, this goes for small pets as well as horses. I can understand this mentality that you may as well throw everything you have at an animal if someone else (insurance company) is paying/get your monies worth BUT I do sometimes think this is at a cost to the animal in terms of the amount of tests/treatment they get. I don't think insurance companies help themselves as we all know the clock starts ticking for claims once a claim goes in. In the past treatments were often held back to give the horse chance to recover without intervention such as in lameness cases.
 
Our last dog at 15 years old was deaf, almost blind, often weed in her sleep which upset her alot, her back legs started to go and overall her quality of life suddenly went down hill. We made the difficult decision that it would be kindest to have her put down so phoned the vets and took her down only to be told that they would not put a dog down unless it was put on the table and couldn't get back up and he put a piece of food infront of its nose and it refused to eat it. He made out that we wanted to have her put down because an old dog was too much trouble.... We were devesteated at this accusation she was our loved family pet. We kept her going another month before taking her to a different vet reccomended to us who said he would have happily done it a month ago and that the other vet was very out of order. In hindsight I only wish that we had taken her to the other vet in the first place, nice as it was to have her for another month she was not happy or comfortable. The vet that refusted to put her down I think was purely money motivated, on leaving he was trying to sell us pills for this that and the other (and had about six months before persuaded us to let him operated on her (a fairly major operation) at vast expense that at that age we probabley woudn't have put her through). So yes some vets are money motivated
 
My vet was always very aware of insurance - but in a good way. He would make sure I was covered before starting things to try to ensure I paid for as little as possible. He made sure our lads MRI shockwave xrays and steroid injections were all done before the claim expired (yes they were all needed
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) and then he actually made sure that the next injection was given as late as possible to make sure I got full value from my insurance company. Now we have run out he always discusses cost and alternatives before starting treatment. I dont think he did this to make money I think he did this to help me and my horse get the benefit of my insurance (that is what you pay it for after all) and to make sure that everything possible was done that could be done. I do not think he has ever tried to make extra money from me and I trust him completely.
 
i think in small animal practise there is probably more 'emotional blackmail' used, but as for horse stuff, i would like to think it's rarer. But i do hate if you call vet out one of the first question you get asked is "Is your horse insured?" and my answer is: Will it make a difference to condition? then vet normal laughs and works out why i've called them out........
And i always ask what treatment they would do if my horses where not insured....... just to keep them on their toes. As in, my experience some old fashion methods work better than quick fix of drugs. Don't get me wrong i have no problem with giving my ggs drugs, but i do like vets to think laterial aswell.
 
Yes I think so too - our dog went in to hospital and was in intensive care - they knew from the start that he was insured... After a wk they rang and said come and collect him, he'll be better off at home - When we got there we found out that the bill had got to the £6k (exactly!!) insurance limit and so they sent him home!
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Kate x
 
I've experienced an equine vet that I believe was money motivated. Either that or delusional, thinkin that she could solve any problem at all.

But when you desperate for a solution its easy to miss, hindsight is a wonderful thing!
 
The very fact of insurance has changed veterinary medicine beyond recognition. Very expensive and sophisticated treatments are now available to "ordinary" animals (Horses - can't speak for small animals). Techniques from human medicine using expensive equipment are becoming standard diagnostic tools (MRI, for example), funded by insurance. This has definitely caused veterinary medicine to come on a long way. However, it also means that owners are expecting much more in the way of diagnosis and cure from their vets. In the past, bute and box rest were the answer to nearly everything, and the horse either recovered or didn't. Now, thanks to MRI, shockwave therapy, stem cell, arthroscopic surgery, etc, horses are actually able to be treated in a potentially effective manner. But all these things are very, very expensive.

I do think that now that such techniques are commonplace, vets want to utilise them. And sometimes they are very quick to go down the sophisticated route when (for example) the old fashioned bute and box rest would probably be the best answer.

Having said all this, a lot of horses would not be around if not for such techniques, and the insurance companies are to be thanked for helping to fund their development. My horse is one of them. My horse's insurance is better than the health insurance that my parents pay for (in Ireland). Amazing.

And at the end of the day, a veterinary clinic is a business. In my experience vets work bloody hard and (at least my vets) do a brilliant job.
 
Neither my small anima lor equine vet are, but I have no doubt some vets are.
 
Surely if someone was money motivated them wouldnt have went for Veterinary as a Career??

I know i didnt...im doing vet because i like animals and after doing work experience it seemed like a life i could enjoy and enjoy working in.

Doctors,Dentists,Pharmacists sure as hell get paid more and vet isnt exactly a career you can do halfheartily...its all or nothing from the first year of collage...and the workload is no joke

Some practices might have a dodgy attitude with trying to convince people to spend money on tests but i find it hard to believe that they order them unnessecaily.But a vet practice is a business at the end of the day.If they dont treat there customers right they wont keep them

To be honest from what ive seen it can be more of a problem with peoples expectations of what the vet can diagnose without tests versus how much they are willing to spend on a pet.
or am i being naive?

In general id still say most vets arent in it for the money..(there are money grabbing people in all walks of life so im saying most)
Over here if you get the point to get into vet you have the points do do more or less anything in collage and there are easier careers to get rich in...

Mind you i think insurance is one of the best things to ever happen to vet med so i might be out numbered on here...

If you've ever seen people have to decide wether to amputate or PTS a young family dog because they cant afford to pay for a the repair of the leg it might make you appreciate the people who have insurance more.
It opens so many doors that simply arent there for those without it...its one thing to say that sure we want every thing done for our pet but when the bills can go into the thousands then its no joke!
Especially if the client then disagree's with paying the amount owed and the vet if the one left out of pocket....it happens...more frequently than you'd expect.
 
i certainly didn't go into veterinary because of the money. if i had of done i'd be sorely disappointed coz it's crap compared to similarly qualified professionals. i'd have been much better off being a doctor or dentist.

that article in the daily mail was a total lot of biased bullshite. never read such a load of rubbish in my life.

i dont see any of the money i make and my boss does not put me under pressure to make money. i do what i think is best for the animal. sometimes this costs a lot of money, with the advances in veterinary medicine. sometimes it means calling it a day before the animal suffers (or suffers more) and not pushing loads more tests and pills. top of my priorities is animal welfare. money does not come into it.
 
I think we all need to remember that there's good and bad in all professions and in all walks of life. We also need to remember that a veterinary practice is a business, same as any other, and it needs to make money to survive.

Having said that, I guess we can all only speak from experience. I'm very fortunate to have an equine practice as my "local" vets. They are totally professional at all times, whilst never losing compassion for the horses they treat or the owners who are so often sick with worry. In my experience, the only reason that they will ask about insurance is because, as some have said above, veterinary treatment for horses can cost thousands of pounds. How would we like it if they just went ahead with a particular hugely expensive treatment only to find out afterwards that the owner is uninsured and cannot afford the fees? That would be wrong too! I have never, ever experienced a time when my vets wouldn't be happy to talk about a health problem, discuss options, recommend treatments but then support me in what decision I made.

An illustration (because I feel so strongly about this!). My horse Sunny has lost an eye to superficial keratitis. He now has no more "spares" so his remaining eye is very precious. A couple of summers ago, I spotted a teeny tiny lump on the lower rim of his eyelid and in a panic called my vets out as an emergency. They knew Sunny's eye problems so were out like a shot. When they arrived, the tiny lump was hardly visible and was clearly a fly bite or some other non-descript thing. Sunny was fine. Eye was fine. Now, they could have made a big show of taking him in and doing tests and inserting dyes. Or they could have made me feel very small and stupid for such a pointless "emergency" callout. But no. They understood completely and gave his eye a thorough check and talked things over with me and generally gave the 100% service they always do.

I think it's helpful to share other people's experiences - good or bad - but please don't generalise from this except to say, as I did at the beginning, that there is good and bad in every walk of life.
 
My last vets were brilliant. When my mare torn her hind suspensory ligament for the 2nd time the vets knew is wasn’t covered under the insurance, so he did me a special rate to keep the bills done £50 a visit for shockwave rather than £75, because he knew what the mare & I had already been through.
When he came to PTS my 24 yo mare who I had owned since she was 4 he was with us for 2 hours & charged us £50 the same, plus the bedside manner could not be faulted, he cried with us & gave us hugs & drank coffee laced with rum!! You could not have asked for more compassion.
Every time he came he gave you as much time as you needed. He never felt like he was on a time table (unlike some other vets who were in so fast & out again before you could blink), he never made you feel small or a nuisance for being called out. He even gave me his private mobile number when my mare had an op so I could ring him at anytime to find out how she was.
When I was looking for a new horse he went out & did a couple of vettings. As (sadly) they both failed early on he stopped the vetting, called me, told me what the situation was, and asked if I wanted him to continue. When I said no he packed up & charged me for a 3 stage vetting, not the 5 stage that I had booked, as that was all he had done.
Truly service with a smile & restored my faith in vets
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I've found some vets not very forthcoming with referrals when its obvious they aren't really going to get to the bottom of a problem. They don't have the equipment or the specialist knowledge to figure out more complex equine problems, but they insist on people wasting an awful lot of time and money going around in circles with them first. I can't help thinking that this is money motivated.
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Some vets may be. Especially if they are employees as they are bringing money in so therefore being viewed favourably by the practice owner in theory. It is difficult - insurance has made more costly operations/treatment more achievable for alot of owners, and new techniques/treatments are being discovered all the time. Like any scientist, a vet wants to have a go at the new stuff. That is how we learn and improve our knowledge. My old cat was poorly over Christmas and New Year. She isn't insured and I don't know her actual age, but she could well be as much as 16. The vet who treated her initially was the practice owner. We discussed her symptoms and looked at possible actions. Firstly some drugs, then if that didn't work, a GA and very close examination and xray. Then he looked straight at me and said, but you don't want that for her, do you? I was so grateful that he put the age of the cat and her quality of life before anything else, because that was how I felt anyway. What is the point of subjecting an elderly animal to invasive examination especially if the end result is the chop? It just isn't worth it. She is an old lady who has had 5 years of total love and attention after years of neglect and abuse. Last week she wasn't well again but today she is feeling much better and is enjoying her life again, so we go from day to day.
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Some are undoubtedly. We had vet to check pony's back on advice of instructor, did flexion test etc. all ok, stayed for about an hour and found pony slightly sore on near fore, advised to have nerve blocks and booked an appointment, all doom and gloom and daughter crying. YO calmed us down and advised to give pony a couple of days, by chance farrier came out and said pony probably had bruised sole, shod in wide web shoes and never had a day's lameness since. Also found same thing with dog, when she became ill booked in for test after test, treatment after treatment and we had no insurance, drew the line at chemo. Looking back i would have had her PTS before i did, don't think it is always in the animals interest to keep on trying this and that putting aside the fact that we spent thousands.
 
Slightly O\T I had a bit of an issue with this over a large well run and highly recommended vet hospital - not so much money orientated but the "we have the technology and facilities here - subject your horse to loads more treatment and surgery" despite the fact one op had already failed and another would only resolve one of her many, many issues.

I felt they weren't really taking "her" into consideration if you know what I mean?

My own vets are not like that at all...I think it's because they actually know us personally
 
I think vets are brilliant and very clever and they certainly deserve a high salary for the 7 years of study and the unsocialable hours they work. My only moan is that I think that some get carried away if you have insurance and in some cases to the point of cruelty when logic and humanity should tell you call it a day and do the kind thing. My hubby is a farrier and he has come accross a couple of cases where the poor horse was used as guinea pig with procedure after procedure when it was very obvious that the outcome would be negative. Conversely, if it's the owner pushing for more procedures the vet needs to say 'no it's not in the animal's best interest'.
 
Its interesting that the bute and box rest route seems to have been overtaken now by xray, scan and shockwave and/or surgery.

I had a long conversation regarding this with a very experienced long standing equine vet who told me that over 85% of lameness will recover with time and rest, however, in these days of everything now most vets feel that owners expect them to be doing treatment rather than wait and see.

I know of one old horse who has a history of lameness as long as war and peace and is still uncomfortable on the perscribed 4 bute a day,

The horses owner decided enough was enough and wanted the horse pts but the vet told her to go for loss of use ( strange as the horse has had no use for the last 7 years as always lame)

Anyway, owner reluctantly agreed and so far ( under ins) the horse has had a course of adaquan, a course of shockwave, several more visits and scans( to check on progress (didn't need scans to know horse is still lame!)

The latest is that vets think the horse is a bit better (not) and won't go for loss of use yet but now want to open a new claim as lameness could be in front as well as behind.

This diagnosis is brilliant as the owner told the vets right at the start and several thousand pounds ago that the poor horse didn't have a good leg to stand on.

The owner is in bits because this poor horse is having to go through all this treatment. Her hands are tied by what the vets will or won't say to the ins company.

Owner has now decided to speak to ins company and try to get them to agree to horse being pts as still v lame and unhappy on 4 bute daily.
 
I think some are motivated by money and some aren't, nicely illustrated by my dealings with 2 different practices

Old practice - my 18 yr old retired welsh cob was a bit pottery not really lame but not right, it was the middle of summer with rock hard ground on lush grass, I moved her to a small field with more bare ground than grass and scrubby grass at that and got the vet.
He came , asked if she was insured to which I said yes, then he and ummed and aahed then said he wanted her taking up to the practice for a full lameness work-up including nerve blocks and xrays etc etc. I said no, she is retired and doesn't like to travel. He had already agreed that it was either mild laminitis or most likely her ringbone flaring up, for which both would be treated by bute and remaining in this field as she tends to just sunbathe in the summer when its hot.

Four weeks later she was sound and off the bute, it turned out to be mild laminitis (farrier diagnosed in the end). I can't believe e wanted to put a retired pony through a full lameness work-up when both treatment options were going to be the same.

New practice - I got the vet out as my TB had a hardish lump on the back of her leg near her fetlock. She had a look, said it was a cyst and not to worry, if I wanted it scanned they would do it but personnally she wouldn't bother. She then said as she had allowed more time for getting to me than she had taken she might aswell have a look at all of them, so she had the welshes rug off to see her weight, checked her legs, checked the yearlings weight, had a feel for any wolf teeth coming through and had a look at her eye as it was a little bit gooey, then checked my tb's heart, lungs and digestive system at no cost.

The first practice mentioned have a teerrible reputation in my area for wringing out every last penny, but I love the new one, they really seem to care and aren't money-grabbing at all. Its a shame the minority give so many other vets a bad name.
 
I fell out with my previous vets over their billing, I refused to pay a bill as it just kept re-appearing as balance outstanding. Eventually it turned out the vet had "pressed the button for an extra visit and x-rays" on their machine. I understand mistakes happen but this was not a one off. It was being claimed on the insurance and i get the feeling it was just expected that i would claim it back from the insurance without really questioning it! They were also very keen on doing things that were way beyond their capabilities "oh we have done/seen one" rather than give a referal-not a chance! They were always in a hurry (many dud blood tests because I had a horse climbing the walls as a result of their manner - cortisol levels were actually affected! I also got fed up about hearing about the partners' pension funding and cars..... needless to say i changed vets!
 
i now use lingfield vets and cant praise them enogh. they have been absolutley fantastic with my horses and with me. they always think of what is the best for the pony and always take the time to check up on them. my vet even phoned me on her day off!! you dont get that with many practices! couldnt reccommend them enough!
 
I certainly didn't go into it for the money, and would be very disappointed if I had! For me it boils down to an interest in biology and medicine and a genuine feeling for animals and their owners. I care about all my patients, equine and small animals, and tricky or upsetting cases will carry on occupying my mind long after I've left the office.

Obviously there are some people out there who want to make as much money as possible, maybe because they are responsible for the business or feel pressure from the people who are. The article in the Daily Mail and TV programmes tend to tar us all with the same brush and are not representative of the profession as a whole. I saw a TV programme that said we all treat animals unnecessarily because they took in healthy animals, told the vet they'd been vomiting and/or not eating and obtained treatment. Animals cannot tell us what's wrong, therefore we rely on information from the owner- if they lie to us, what do they expect! Certainly in the case of the rabbit they said was not eating, this is considered a semi-emergency, as rabbits who di not eat for a period of time go into gut stasis and die, so the vet was quite correct in administering quite intensive treatment immediately.

Sorry, I digress...I'll get off my soapbox now!
 
my vets are fab, they do ask are you insured but again in good way - my horse has arthritis in hocks and is now not covered for it under insurance but my vet did say that should i need further x rays after insurance ran out he would just charge me for the plates not his time which i thought was great and really unexpected. they always tell me the truth on outcomes - whether its good or bad and have had me in tears before now (i easily cry!!!) I dont think they do anything to gain money although i would say callout fees have gone up alot recently but more likely down to cars being more expensive to run with fuel etc and vat going back up. An no they not the cheapest for drugs but if mine on anything long term i buy from online pharmacy.
 
As said, it takes all kinds but I don't think too many people go into vet med with a mind to making tons of cash. Given the schooling and the salaries involved, there are easier ways!
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I do think the insurance climate impacts on the sort of work that gets done. Horse insurance is nowhere near as "advanced" in Canada and my personal experience is there are far fewer procedures done there, both diagnostic and treatment, done for the average horse. Sending a horse to a specialist is still a big deal and while many vets now have quite well appointed clinics, that's a very recent phenomenon. MRIs etc are available but almost unheard of as an option for what amounts to first line diagnosis. That said, there are more medication options.

I do think two other things impact the amount of expensive work that gets done.

One, owners/clients/consumers are the ones that have to choose what gets done. Obviously vets have to provide guidance but they're really there to provide information - it's up to the owner to decide what to do, when to do it, and where to draw the line. But I think increasingly people think if something highly technological is offered as an option then it should be taken. Perhaps it's wording - if a vet says something is the "best option" then that carries a connotation that's what should be done, regardless of other factors. But how many people just say, straight out, "I can't afford that and therefore won't be able to do it." Surely the decision ultimately rests with the person paying.

Also, I think some vets are scientists at heart. They honestly want to use the most advanced options open to them, in part because they really do think it's best for the animal, but also, I suspect, because it's "there". If you can, you should and every opportunity adds to experience. I know a few vets whom I respect and admire and would use/recommend in a heartbeat but I tell people going in to remember that the vet is good in part because he's ambitious. Again, it's up to the client to decide how much is enough.

I will say, I was emotionally blackmailed over a dog. I ended discussing the situation privately with my usual (large animal specialist) vet and he referred me to another small animal vet who saw things similarly to me and supported my decision. But then, was she "right" for agreeing with me or was the other vet "right" for pushing what he thought was best even when I didn't?
 
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