Are warmbloods beginning to dominate eventing?

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Jaydurh

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Just a thread for some research a friend and i are doing.

Are warmbloods beginning to dominate eventing?

Opinions and experiences will be appreciated. Thanks.
 
Nope- not at the very top level, where the full thoroughbred, the trakehner and the selle francias ( french thoroughbred) are the main 3 breeds. ( check out the breeding list of this years euro championships) There is the odd exception of course.

At the middle/bottom level, warmbloods are doing very well but for some reason they are just not coming out at the very top , they could be due to come out soon, who knows.
I think it is because they lack that extra special boldness, bravery, fifth leg, mental agility and toughness found in the TB/ Trak/Selle francias that is needed for the XC.
 
In the 70s & 80s the TB was crossed with ID etc now its crossed with continental breeds. The proportions of TB blood are still probably the same at the top levels.
 
Trakehners are classified as WBs, even though they introduced more TB earlier than some of the other German breeds, and SF are a real mish mash, with the French studbook having incorporated quite a bit of German blood into the original TB stock. I don't think any of it is really clear-cut anymore as all the Studbooks are cross-breeding to improve quality: I have a horse with a KWPN passport (ie Dutch Warmblood) but he is actually 12.5% TB and 25% SF. Look at registered ISHs, many of them now have large chunks of "WB" in their pedigrees...
 
Am pasting this from this blog of William Micklems- espec read the part where it says 'elite performer'-

Evidence would suggest that the ideal modern elite Event horse is currently between 3/4 and full thoroughbred, the ideal modern elite Showjumper is between 1/2 and 3’/4 thoroughbred, and the ideal modern elite Dressage horse is between 1/4 & 1/2 thoroughbred…and the move in all these disciplines is towards more quality, athleticism and elegance. In the meantime I will continue to hold my dream of horses from one family of thoroughbreds, or three quarter thoroughbreds, conquering all three main competition disciplines! Dreams drive us on....but the big bonus is that if these horses don't become elite performers they can have useful lives in so many other directions.

What is certain is that big, wide horses, with little sensitivity and sense of self-preservation, are not required, and what is certain is that the phenomenal performance and potential of the Thoroughbred sport horse is no fairy tale

http://www.barnmice.com/profiles/blogs/even-mark-todd-can-be-led-6
 
trakheners are technically warm bloods but are actually descended for the remenants of the Prussian Army horses (mostly all blood) that escaped with their riders from Russia after the revolution and the journey was so hard that the survivors were kept as the basis for a breed. Selle Francais are french TB's really.
Other warm blood breed especially holsteiners, hannoverians, belgian and dutch warmbloods were all descended from carriage horses.
and if you look at the results of the european champs not much warm blood there really, few spashes of irish draught as lec says but otherwise TB's are holding their own.
 
Prussia was part of Germany! They escaped the Russians who were racing towards Berlin during WW2.
 
I would think not, I think warmbloods lack the stamina and speed for the top levels although of course you get the odd exception. Personally, Id never buy a WB to event
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Selle Francais may have varying degrees of TB in them but they are french warmbloods. The clue is in the name - french saddle horse! The norman breeders imported english TBs and norfolk trotters to improve their native breeds to make riding horses. They do not qualify to race. The french equivalent to our non-thoroughbred register at Weatherbys is NQPS which is what many of the french national hunt horses are. Trakeners are also warmblood. They may be one of the lighter warmbloods but they still are not TB. They are less hibrid than the other breeds so more pure. The Germans realised some time ago that they needed to inject more TB blood into their breeds to produce the modern competition horse which they are doing very successfully. The ISH in many cases also has warmblood in. The most well known of these at present is Cavalier Royale.
Tbs are finding it increasingly hard to hold their own at top level. Minors Frolic is obviously an exception but as the dressage and show jumping are now so influential, some continental blood helps. TBs as a rule have to work at being loose through their body and naturally have a flatter jump.
 
i think the problem is that you can't define "warmblood" very definitively any more. the trak studbook is the only one that's 'closed' to all other breeds except approved TBs, but the others accept a lot of blood from all sorts of breeds.
TB (pure or predominantly) still reigns supreme at the top levels, i reckon.
I was told years ago that 1 reason for the rise of the warmblood was that they mature quicker than irish x tb horses, so people can make a quicker profit, but that the downside is that they don't stand up to as much work for as long.
still not sure if that's totally correct though...
 
see belv is TB X Trakhener X shire
(one parent was shire X tb the other full trakhener)
and he is AMAZING XC, pretty much always clear and inside time! he will help me out if necessary and he covers the ground really well. ie chatsworth only 3/300 or so horses went inside the time, and he was one of them. and that was just because we galloped on between fences...

so he is part WB, but he deff has the stamina and speed like TB's do..

which just shows you cannot put WB's in a box...


his build:

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i think you will find Lec that Prussia was a country that although part of the German Empire (the most part at one point) was a state in its own right which covered what is now part of Poland, Lithuania and Russia. and it is a fair while since i read the book on the subject so possibly i got the conflict wrong but am also fairly sure it was a massive journey though many miles of snow and ice and far earlier the WW2.
i will try and find the book reference, it was dead good.

LATER; having looked it up it was in WW2 but the stud was in EAST PRUSSIA, now part of poland and the breed primarily used as a calvary horse was mostly founded using arabs and TB,s. A new stud was formed in what was then west germany with the few purebreds that reamined after a horrific 900 mile journey on foot. So as I originally said, this breed was never originaly bred as a pure carriage horse, they wanted speeed and agility from the first.
 
For me a TB is registered in the relevant studbook of the country of origin. Weatherbys non-thoroughbred register is for horses whose pedigree is not known to be pure, like the NQPS horses in france. Minors Lamp is one of the few top level horses that is a TB. There is TB influence in a large proportion of breeds but I doubt that, for instance, the Hannoverian Society would say their horses are TB. This is the difference between warmbloods and TBs - one is bred for various purposes using selected horses possibly of other breeds to make the best horse for that job. The other is bred for racing using only pure blood but may be used as riding horses particularly if either not fashionably bred for racing or not suitable.
 
Depending on who you ask, Trakehners and SF's are or are not technically warmbloods. They are both "semi-closed" books that accept only only TB and Arabs as breeding stock. (There has been a HUGE debate about this in Canada because there are two competing Sport Horse registries and the government wants them to either choose or amalgamate. One of the major sticking points is what books they do or do not accept horses "sight unseen" from and what constitutes a "warmblood" so it's been done to death.) The point being that, by definition, they carry a high percentage of TB and Arab blood where as horses from other books may carry varying amounts.

It's pretty much moot these days though, as "modern type" warmblood books all look heavily to refining influences. And while some books tend to breed towards a specific discipline - the Holsteiner towards sj, for example - many now breed different lines for different disciplines, experimenting with various crosses to get more or less of each attribute.

As for *why* they have come to dominate the sport market, well, because they custom breed, they keep phenomenal records which successful breeders interpret for the optimum development of their programs, they cull (the dirty little secret for the UK and N. America, I think), and they test and adjust continuously. It's all about the product and the market. I think an argument can be made that the UK still has such a foot hold in event breeding because they have two thriving markets - field hunters and NH racing - which need similar types and tests them for performance, even if inadvertently, as stringently as most of the warmblood performance tests.
 
that last is a good point Tarr, which also obviously applies to Ireland.
I also believe that it will take a lot longer than anyone has been breeding sports horses to breed out certain breed traits if you like. TB's had been bred to run for a long while before weatherby's was founded and no matter how sweet and tame they are and how many generations away from the track, you are never surprised if one whips round and pisses off are you?
in the same way, many of the carriage type horse had been bred for big showy fronts with lots of toe flick to look good in harness and as these horses were replaced by cars they found a new job doing dressage or what ever. On the other hand, the fact that they were not bred to have such fantastic hind ends (horses pull from their fronts and big trotthing behind more likely to catch traces or other horses) so often there is an inherent weakness there which i think shows up when they are asked to GALLOP and jump as this was never their purpose. Obviously breeders think about thses things now, but i dont think the characterstic has been bred out yet. i am sure i am explaining very badly by the way!!
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One of the problems I percieve in TB breeding is that they are being bred smaller and lighter in build as they mature quicker. The traditional steeplechaser type that Miners Frolic is does not exist as much because they are not going to hurdle at 4. The popularity of French bred TBs in steeple chasing like Kauto and Master Minded is because they mature so much quicker. Denman is a bit of a freak as you do not see many the size of him now. I always though Best Mate would have made an awesome eventer!
 
That is a very good point. The emphasis on early speed, yearling sales prices, and artificial surfaces means that TBs, especially those bred for the flat and increasingly hurdling, are very different in type than they were. Over the same space of time the demands of sport have also become more specialised, meaning increasingly a horse has to be bred for the job to excel.

The same could be said for Arabs. Their lines are now so specialised you rarely see any competing outside their narrow fields at any significant level. So the TB and Arab sport pool gets smaller and the specialised sport horse pool gets larger.
 
I would only want to ride something with a big amount of tb blood around a 11minute 3/4* track. I love wb's and you do see so so many wb zooming around 2* tracks easy peasy but they don't seem to cope with the next level up, they don't stay sound enough (most vets I have spoken too say this) and they don't cope with the extra sharpness needed past 9 minutes- thats when you need the blood.
 
If you mean is the continental influence overpowering the traditional ID/TB, I'd say yes, unequivocally. With regard to soundness, it's an interesting point, but I don't think warmbloods are inherently less sound for top level eventing. Look at all the warmbloods jumping massive SJ tracks week in week out. How many TBs could do that and stay sound, sane and careful? In eventing, I think you need a certain amount of blood, but mostly I think a horse's aptitude and soundness comes down to all sorts of other factors. Looking through the Euro Champs breeding, there are surprisingly few pure TBs. I'm not sure it's even an argument - which is superior? Neither, the superior sport horse is generally (but not always) a mixture of both.
 
It is right that there is an emphasis on quick maturing TBs as it is a commercial business. The problem with the national hunt type is that as 3/4/5 year olds their value is too great for the event market if they have the movement and athleticism that we want. If they are not the type that trainers want they probably are not balanced and athletic enough for eventing either!! I don't think too many of our top eventers would have turned down Best Mate - his trainer always said he wouldn't look out of place at Badminton! Actually a similar stamp to Minors Frolic.
 
I have long been an advocate of the Trakehner as the ultimate event horse - it's the Thoroughbred of the warmblood world. As others have said, the base stock is from a cavalry background rather than an agricultural or driving one, and it has only ever allowed in approved Thoroughbred or arabian blood. This has kept the gene pool very tight and consistant, and is why the Trakehner is widley used as a refiner for other warmblood stud books.

I also think the Selle Francais and Holstein stud books, with their great influence on jumping ability - when combined with the right Thoroughbred blood, also make superb eventers.
 
very interesting topic, we bought a horse 11 years ago to event, part tb, a bit of shire he has reached 4 * but looks very old fashioned now and not really suited to twisty, fences on a curve etc, so we have irish sports horses with a bit of warmblood!, irish mainly tb with a bit of draught, and a dutch trying to cover our options you might say! Xc fence building changes so you try to find a horse that suits, but whose to say in another ten years these might not be right for the courses being built, they might go back to the big bold straight forward fences! Dressage matters a lot so a trainable horse is essential, but they've got to have the jump for sj and be careful, wouldn't it be wonderful if we could find that oh so perfect horse every time. Then of course you've got to have the perfect rider to bring out all those wonderful qualities because it is the partnership that matters.
Burghley young event horse- mainly warmbloods in the top ten?
 
Sorry - haven't checked, but what is the breeding of those horses who (successfully) competed in the Europeans?

I think, perhaps, there is a tad of warmblood in there, but not much more??

Tell me more guys....!!
 
I've had a full warmblood (ok only at PN/Nov level) and I would never again have something less than 50% TB.

He never "dug deep", if I wasn't in it 100% at every fence he couldn't be bothered. The TBs are much more willing to help you out, they're adrenal glands are much more prevelant than in the warmblood. It's not every warmblood and I'm not saying it does go for all and obviously there are exceptions... but as an observation, they seem much more difficult to get their blood up (pure WBs).

Watching the europeans... the more WB types said "no" when they were getting tired and threw the towel in, but the TBs were the ones that came home full of it.

I know someone who is eventing a WB at 2*, and is probably doing the fitness with that that most 4* horses do.
 
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