Are we missing out a chunk of education with youngsters?

[Orangehorse]

For some unknown reason I have started to get some Facebook information from a Western rider. At first I didn't even bother to look, but I stopped and started to read. This woman has been starting horses for the last 15 years.

With a quiet well handled horse the first thing she does is use a rope halter and get them to respond quickly and smoothly to either side just with the soft pressure of the rope halter. She doesn't progress until they do this completely 100% smoothly and immediately respond to the soft pressure.

There was a later video of a rather nice chunky cob doing a lovely balanced canter with just the rope halter, and coming to an immediate stop when requested. I was impressed. The canter would have looked great in the dressage arena, despite there being no bit (maybe because there was no bit). She was in a large arena so there was a fence round, but it wasn't a small arena area.

So the horse is not pulling on the halter, or learning to lean on a metal bit, it learns to yield to pressure.

 

[TheMule]

IMO Good training is good training- pressure, yield and immediate release is a skill that not many people master and that’s how you get that softness, bit or no bit.

 

[Spotherisk]

Kate Sandel https://softandsound.org/the-art-of-hacking/ recently wrote a post about what she’s done with her youngest horse in the years she’s had him. He’s not backed yet, but Kate has solidly put the time and effort in so he has the best future ahead. It was so much more than halter, feet, tie up, load etc, and (although I am horseless now and unlikely to have another) it really made me think how we should set our horses up so they’re prepared as possible for as much as we can, and so we teach a response.

 

[Orangehorse]

I did a lot of ground obstacles and such like when mine was young, which gave him confidence and meant that he wasn't spooky but he had already had tack on and been lunged so he wasn't a blank sheet and he was never soft, rather the opposite. I didn't have the skills then to even realise and certainly not to re train him.

 

[Hackback]

If you follow @Ambers Echo's thread about starting Mylo I'm sure you will see how Joe works with young horses to set them up for riding. He's been working with my young horse for over a year and we're just at the backing stage. But the preparation isn't about getting the tack on, lunging etc, it's about flexing, yielding to pressure, balancing, getting off the forehand, lining up at the mounting block etc. It's been an eye opener for me as I've never seen a young horse started this way, but I'm really enjoying it.

 

[RachelFerd]

My older horse goes nicely in a rope halter and will canter to halt much more politely than he does in a bridle. I did the halter training though, whereas he came to me numb-mouthed from being in racing, and I've never been able to correct it.

 

[Ambers Echo]

And Joe’s international dressage medallist girlfriend is now incorporating this approach when training her horses. It’s not just for buckaroos….

 

[Ambers Echo]

@Hackback hugely eye opening for me too. Take leading - all I’ve ever expected from a horse is for horse to go where i want it to go politely. My horses generally lead better than many because they are polite and obedient, when so many drag their owners around! But with Joe there are so many more layers - posture, balance, responsiveness, attunement, softness. Plus every thing is geared towards their future job. The reaching step means they initiate movement in a balanced way in response to an invitation. If instead you ask for movement with a small amount of rope pressure, the pressure loads the inside leg so they then step over with the outside leg in a sort of falling step. Which if less helpful if you want a horse to always, always move in balance! And the shift back at the end- all with a future as a ridden horse you want lighter in front in mind. Just so interesting.

 

[Hackback]

@Hackback hugely eye opening for me too. Take leading - all I’ve ever expected from a horse is for horse to go where i want it to go politely. My horses generally lead better than many because they are polite and obedient, when so many drag their owners around! But with Joe there are so many more layers - posture, balance, responsiveness, attunement, softness. Plus every thing is geared towards their future job. The reaching step means they initiate movement in a balanced way in response to an invitation. If instead you ask for movement with a small amount of rope pressure, the pressure loads the inside leg so they then step over with the outside leg in a sort of falling step. Which if less helpful if you want a horse to always, always move in balance! And the shift back at the end- all with a future as a ridden horse you want lighter in front in mind. Just so interesting.

I forgot the mental preparation too, and we were only talking about it at my last lesson and really it's the thing Joe has helped me with the most (and he STILL has to keep reminding me). It matters that I am exact in what I ask, and that I don't settle for less than perfect because AJ needs and wants to know I'm in charge and he can therefore rely on me when we progress to ridden. I just hope I can live up to this expectation.

 

[paddy555]

Kate Sandel https://softandsound.org/the-art-of-hacking/ recently wrote a post about what she’s done with her youngest horse in the years she’s had him. He’s not backed yet, but Kate has solidly put the time and effort in so he has the best future ahead. It was so much more than halter, feet, tie up, load etc, and (although I am horseless now and unlikely to have another) it really made me think how we should set our horses up so they’re prepared as possible for as much as we can, and so we teach a response.

I've always done that. My youngsters walk in hand and on long reins for miles and miles, we cross streams, do cars, drive sheep and cattle, lunge over rocks on the common, they learn to walk in single file a couple of yards behind me which is always useful on tracks through the mines, stand on village greens with lots of people. We did used to spend many hours standing in Hound Tor car park but the coffee and cake there may have been the attraction. That was about a 15 mile round walk. I don't have a school so we have to work in the outside world.

The horses were usually 2 or 3 by then. Perhaps that is why I never had a problem with hacking horses. Been there, done that so often and quite frankly bored by it.
I also do all the other spook stuff, ground work etc, They spend their time walking past black plastic that trails over them, under washing lines with clothes etc.
They walk without a headcollar at my side obeying a schooling whip for commands.
That sets them up for what I want which is hacking on moorland.

I can see lots of advantage in teaching the stuff in posts 8 and 5 if you are hoping to set them up for dressage type activities. I'm just at a loss as to why people don't do all of this sort of training as standard.
If you start riding properly (not just hopping on and off bareback) when they are 5 there is lots of time before that to do this work

not studied Joe M but off to find a website or youtube.

 

[Orangehorse]

If you follow @Ambers Echo's thread about starting Mylo I'm sure you will see how Joe works with young horses to set them up for riding. He's been working with my young horse for over a year and we're just at the backing stage. But the preparation isn't about getting the tack on, lunging etc, it's about flexing, yielding to pressure, balancing, getting off the forehand, lining up at the mounting block etc. It's been an eye opener for me as I've never seen a young horse started this way, but I'm really enjoying it.

This is what this lady from the USA was doing. And just what I meant about the "standard" backing method in the UK is missing out some important (vital?) stages. If I ever did have another horse, which is doubtful, but this is the way I would start, definitely.

 

[Orangehorse]

Reading about all the long lining. I think the old fashioned "nagsman" would do this long lining around the lanes, but I reckon that not that many would do it now. Some of course. But I expect that for many it is just go into the arena.

 

[SEL]

Reading about all the long lining. I think the old fashioned "nagsman" would do this long lining around the lanes, but I reckon that not that many would do it now. Some of course. But I expect that for many it is just go into the arena.

The difficulty is lanes which hardly saw a car are now full of traffic. I had enough issue leading an experienced horse in land up our single track road this morning. We were dressed like a pack of opal fruits and the mare has a backside you can see from space - drivers still braking last minute.

It's a shame because that long reining for miles is invaluable IMO

 

[paddy555]

Reading about all the long lining. I think the old fashioned "nagsman" would do this long lining around the lanes, but I reckon that not that many would do it now. Some of course. But I expect that for many it is just go into the arena.

other than traffic, and I can quite appreciate that problem, I don't know why it is not popular. I long rein everywhere I will ride, roads, tracks, forestry, common. I go alone or with OH and his horse. My horse then learns to leave another horse, that he has to keep in walk whilst OH trots off into the distance. To go in front or behind. The horses love it and it keeps my weight off their backs for a lot longer. I also teach them to tail at the same time.

 

[maya2008]

There are many roads to Rome. I have learned a huge amount over the years, but even as a hobby horse owner, backing relatively few ponies, I haven’t been able to take exactly the same approach twice, ever. Prior experiences (herd based as well as human based), temperament (mostly this!), breeding, age.

I’ve had ponies by the same sire with similar upbringings (two even came from the same herd) where the breeding and temperament from the mother was so different they required completely different approaches. I wouldn’t train a gelding exactly the same as a mare (in my experience they need more hand holding to go first, whereas a mare will just march off down the road on her own with far less fuss), a feral pony the same as one that has been tame all its life, or an adult the same as a youngster.

And even then. You can do all the groundwork and desensitisation and preparation in the world, and find your horse is terrified of being mounted, or thinks the reins are snakes (and only when you are on, despite being fine in long reins…), or a million other things. You can want to stay bitless but the horse disagrees, or vice versa.

Plus, breed…I’ve trained horses bitless and brideless, had fun doing that in my 20s. Would I expect my NF to hack in a headcollar? No. She’d stop at the first bit of grass, stuff her nose in it and refuse to move. Do I trust her to help me with youngsters leading off her? Totally. She’ll respond to them like a quarter horse with cattle - on instinct, helping me more than I ever could have imagined she would, when they suddenly spook/run back/stop dead while attached to me! I could have hacked my TB brideless off road, no issues (and used to play at home in the field like that regularly), but she was indifferent while leading another - different drive/instincts.

 

[Stenners]

other than traffic, and I can quite appreciate that problem, I don't know why it is not popular. I long rein everywhere I will ride, roads, tracks, forestry, common. I go alone or with OH and his horse. My horse then learns to leave another horse, that he has to keep in walk whilst OH trots off into the distance. To go in front or behind. The horses love it and it keeps my weight off their backs for a lot longer. I also teach them to tail at the same time.

I have recently starting long lining my boy for rehab and I'm absolutely loving it! Going to try him with another horse tomorrow - he's been great out on his own.

 

[BBP]

The problem I have with long reining (as in my problem, not that I have a problem with other people long reining) is maintaining the sort of contact that I want my young horse to learn from. It’s very difficult for me to maintain a really nice contact. In hand or ridden I can make every communication with the reins mean something, but on long reins where you get that slight delay or bit of slack, I find it harder to make my hands lovely and soft and following whilst trying not to faceplant myself. I want to maintain his work in a lovely reaching out and down frame, not curling back into himself or bracing slightly like I see with a lot of horses who are long reined. (Just did a quick google search of long reining and you can see how many probably have similar problems to me and are doing it in poor posture).

So any tips appreciated!

 

[planete]

The problem I have with long reining (as in my problem, not that I have a problem with other people long reining) is maintaining the sort of contact that I want my young horse to learn from. It’s very difficult for me to maintain a really nice contact. In hand or ridden I can make every communication with the reins mean something, but on long reins where you get that slight delay or bit of slack, I find it harder to make my hands lovely and soft and following whilst trying not to faceplant myself. I want to maintain his work in a lovely reaching out and down frame, not curling back into himself or bracing slightly like I see with a lot of horses who are long reined. (Just did a quick google search of long reining and you can see how many probably have similar problems to me and are doing it in poor posture).

So any tips appreciated!

The drag on the reins can be much reduced by running them through some small pulleys attached to a roller which also stabilises them. You need rope or rounded leather reins at least from the bit to the pulleys and a bit beyond. Plough lines are a good cheap option. I usually long rein while positioned slightly to one side so I can see the horse's outline and movement.

 

[tristars]

the biggest thing i discovered was if i was prepared to wait and ride patiently til hoss gets stronger all over, and fitter well it all happens naturally, the corners get curved, the circles miraculously are easy to ride, the halt and rein back are fun, and all you need to do is sit there making a few slight movements when needed, when you get off you are not like a bow legged 90 year old cowboy who needs a cup of of tea and a lie down, [from all that effort which did not achieve a lot]

although did go through traditional breaking that takes as long as it takes, whether you use a halter or bridle and bit

nuno oliviera once said "it is a great mistake to use a bit on the young horse" [for the first few lessons] although i have never had any problem ,but then i don`t cling on to the reins for dear life!

 

[tristars]

most people you see long reining are doing youngsters, so i would expect them to look a bit clumsy and obviously not on the bit or balanced some people carry on long reining on to advanced which looks very different