Are we producing horses that are unrideable?

[Mearas]

Having recently read threads on this forum about the use of gadgets in particular draw reins and riders being over horsed. Is there a link? The breeding of horses particularly dressage horses has never been better with extraordinary energy, huge movement, great temperaments and amazing sensitivity, but they just unrideable?

 

[WestCoast]

I think that horses being kept with limited turnout and only being ridden in the school and at competitions, or at most hacked out occasionally short distances in company is contributing to this as well.

Paula

 

[millitiger]

No, I think the problem is that we aren't producing as many proper riders, instead we have lots more people who can sit on a horse rather than ride it.

I used to work with horses and then did a bit of breaking and schooling at home- most of the horses that were sent to me were fed too much and worked too little and I had very little to do to correct them.
However, sometimes I couldn't help the issues arising again when they went back home to be pampered and underworked again!

 

[Wagtail]

I think people have to be sensible about their abilities and realise when a horse is too much for them. That is why I don't like riding great big warmbloods. I have four at my yard that I school regularly. They are all within my capabilities, but two of them take me to the very edge of my ability and I would not choose them as my own horse because of this, even though they are magnificent movers and I can ride them to their best. It is not enjoyable. I like something that I can more than ride. That is why I prefer thoroughbreds rather than warmbloods up to around 16.2 hh. My own horses are a 15.3hh WB that I showjumped up to Newcomers and did dressage up to medium. She is not the most talented ride I have had (previous horse was advanced medium and another was jumping foxhunters) but she is what I preferred to ride and is well within my easy comfort zone. My other horse is a 16.1 hh TB and if he were not out of action would be the most perfect ride on the flat. Nice and light, forward going and easy.

 

[ribbons]

Horses for courses. The type you describe mearas are perfectly rideable, but not by just anyone.
I agree with millitiger, riders don't seem to progress up the ranks anymore like they used to. It can take a lifetime to learn to ride in a way that these horses need, but many think it can be achieved in a few months. It generally ends in tears.
GB needs to keep the focus on breeding superb sport horses to match and even exceed those from the continent. Breeding horses for the every day rider is a different but equally important area. It's when the two get
muddled up that problems arise.

 

[Auslander]

As Millitiger said - I think we are producing wonderful horses, but also - we've spawned a generation of new riders who do not have the depth of experience which allows them to a- ride horses like that, or b- understand that they are not capable of riding horses like that. But hey see the pros ridng them and so they want one too.

I love big warmbloods, but it took three years in Germany for me to understand how you need to ride the real movers to get the benefit of their power and expression. I find it harder now to ride a horse that doesn't have big powerful paces - I feel like I'm riding like a bit of a pleb on anything else tbh!!

 

[Mearas]

As Millitiger said - I think we are producing wonderful horses, but also - we've spawned a generation of new riders who do not have the depth of experience which allows them to a- ride horses like that,

This has occurred to me as well, I think is sadly very true.

 

[Littlelegs]

Agree with millitiger. It's just as much that we aren't producing the riders with the correct experience. There is something in the fact that years ago, few horses were produced in schools, it was in fields & out hacking. But I think the lack of riders, especially when you throw in better/more highly strung horses now available that is more of the problem.

 

[Goldenstar]

I think we are producing a lot of riders who can't ride the horses we are producing .
The horses are not unrideable they may be badly trained or have been well trained at first and then gone wrong but modern warmbloods where not developed to be happy hackers ( that's not saying that many can't do this job if well produced )
TB's can make magic hacks if well trained cobs can be super first horses but can be spooky and inclined to push their wieght around if badly started.
In fact any horse no matter how well trained can go wrong in wrong hands I really don't know what the answer to this is.
The world is different now I grew up in a village a large gaggle of children rode about sorting out each other issues and hiding falls and all manner of stuff from the parents we were self reliant and became problem fixers i shudder now when i think about some of the things we did but you can't replicate that for an adult rider with their first horse.

 

[Mearas]

The use of the curb rein it would seem is now obsolete, especially as the FEI deduct 2 marks for a loose curb rein

 

[WestCoast]

So basically a lot of horses are being produced that there's no one to ride, and a lot of people can't find a suitable horse to get the experience on.

Paula

 

[Renvers]

I agree with your all about breeding. A lot of breeders are focusing on breeding better horses for the competition market (as that is where the money is), look at the popularity of BEF Futurity and the standard of ads in H&H. Now an advert concentrates on bloodlines and scope, when I was a child ads in HHO would say height, colour, whats its done and price. Thats what people's concerns were.

Adopting more of the European approach to bloodlines is great, but means that breeding of nice, steady horses of nondescript lineage is not valued as it was in the past.

 

[Bikerchickone]

I think the problems are coming from the restrictions placed on riding schools in terms of what they're allowed to do with their riders. My instructor made us ride without stirrups over jumps, bareback, in a headcollar etc, and we had to be able to do all this before we were allowed to hack out. I've been told by my daughter's instructor that none of this is allowed on their yard because of insurance restrictions! Surely all the above helps to gain a good seat, and from there the confidence to handle the unexpected because you know you can stay put?

 

[LollyDolly]

extraordinary energy, huge movement, great temperaments and amazing sensitivity, but they just unrideable?

About summed up my pony there, heaps of energy, an enormas range of movement in the front (honestly people can't believe that his short little legs can reach that far! ), sweet as a button and hyper sensitive.
Is this a warmblood you say?
Nah. He's a 15hh Native Crossbreed

All the warmbloods I've ridden have been slow and a bit dim, I'm sure that they aren't all like that and it's just my bad luck though!

I think that horses being kept with limited turnout and only being ridden in the school and at competitions, or at most hacked out occasionally short distances in company is contributing to this as well.

^Pony described above is on limited turnout, yet I can still take him in a big open space without any complications.
Sometimes I think that people need are too quick to make excuses for their horses misbehaving, like "Ooh well darling Edward was very excitable today and I had a bit of a tough time. But then again he hasn't been out for about 4 hours, poor dear."

At the end of the day I expect Sandy to have the same manners whether he'd been out for 10 hours or 10 minutes!
I can understand that some horses do get harder to handle if not turned out for x amount of hours everyday, however it's then up to the rider to enforce the rules. I know somebody who allows their horse to nap to the field because they think that it's cute as he's telling her that he wants to go out, so she dismounts and turns him out.
Er no, jog on pony!

 

[SadKen]

An unmentionable time ago when I were nobbut a lass I went to a show where some other kids my age were messing about on the practice jump, jumping 4'6" on a 13hh pony (I know it was that big cos it was the same size as me). I looked at the jump and thought, no ta. I knew I'd never have the guts and probably never have the pony for that, made peace with never being the best there and then. Didn't realise how useful accepting my limitations would be until I grew a bit more.

There was a Porsche in the early 80s that was called the widowmaker because it was dangerous to drive, but people bought them anyway, and in part due to the reputation. The car was aces but you had to be a good driver to, um, live. Maybe the same thing here!

I would buy the Porsche widowmaker but not the really good, big powerful horse, but I'm a better driver than rider

 

[Crumpet]

There are such alot of very well bred, athletic horses available for a relatively small cost, lets face it 20 years ago you hardly ever saw any horses from the continent, let alone could dream of affording one. Most of us had generic ponies, followed by a TBx or if you were daring a full TB or an arab! I believe we have many riders who haven't been taught to ride properly, lots of us started at the local riding school, cadging a ride on anything and everything taught you to at least stay on. Working for rides pinned down the management side of things. Regular lessons gave polish, when lessons were £5 an hour though, most people could manage it. Most overhorsed riders could manage their horses if they could afford the lessons to learn to ride their animal.

 

[WestCoast]

There always was that sort of bloody terrible rider though - I can remember beng at pony club camp and watching in horror as girls on beautiful ponies pulled them up at jumps and then smacked them for being 'naughty' when it was them that didn't want to do the jump.

 

[Mearas]

I would buy the Porsche widowmaker but not the really good, big powerful horse, but I'm a better driver than rider

I completley understand your point, but it would seem that these big powerful horses are not being ridden, they are being sat on.

 

[Sparkles]

Horses for courses. The type you describe mearas are perfectly rideable, but not by just anyone.
I agree with millitiger, riders don't seem to progress up the ranks anymore like they used to. It can take a lifetime to learn to ride in a way that these horses need, but many think it can be achieved in a few months. It generally ends in tears.
GB needs to keep the focus on breeding superb sport horses to match and even exceed those from the continent. Breeding horses for the every day rider is a different but equally important area. It's when the two get
muddled up that problems arise.

^ This pretty much.

Problems arise when anything more than an 'amateurs' horse is bought by joe public [anyone riding at a level less than the horse and/or with no tuition regardless of what level], the riding talent there to match the horses, isn't.

Far too many riders these days want 'that' horse [aka, wonderhorse], but don't have the talent nor experience to.

Those horses which ARE grand prix material, are bred to for riders of equal experience so not 'unrideable' at all, no.

 

[indie999]

No, I think the problem is that we aren't producing as many proper riders, instead we have lots more people who can sit on a horse rather than ride it.

I used to work with horses and then did a bit of breaking and schooling at home- most of the horses that were sent to me were fed too much and worked too little and I had very little to do to correct them.
However, sometimes I couldn't help the issues arising again when they went back home to be pampered and underworked again!

Agree completely. I personally think it got worse in the boom. People buying horses as status symbols and then wondering why it all has gone wrong. ie mum buys riding school show type pony who never puts a foot wrong then complains like hell and wants to return it and in a short time horse is misbehaving etc and the mum cant understand why?I never invisiged this mum(or child bought for) even mucking, getting dirt on them etc.Turning up for a riding lesson for an hour a week is quite different to having said horse being ridden regularly in school all weekend etc. The mother convinced the riding school she would manage etc and was quite persistant to buy. I gave up looking for new horse this year as it was impossible to find a happy hack. 22 horses later etc, gave up lost heart. But when I looked 10 years ago it wasnt as bad just the odd bad apple.People make excuses for not being able to hack out(I know the roads are busier) but I think they are frightened to, whereas I think they should do a little tiny bit to ensure the horse is a good allrounder etc. Waffling....

 

[millitiger]

So basically a lot of horses are being produced that there's no one to ride, and a lot of people can't find a suitable horse to get the experience on.

Paula

There are plenty of horses for people to get experience on.

Unfortunately so many people buy the horse they WANT rather than the horse that fits in with their experience, lifestyle and skillset.

People WANT flashy, tall, big moving horses yet when they buy that horse they are surprised when they fall off.

There is a world of difference between a 15.2hh more native/cobby horse having a buck and a jink and a 17hh sharp and athletic sports horse throwing exactly the same moves.

My 15.3hh tb used to buck sometimes in high jinks and was very quick to spook/ jink- I found her very easy to sit to though due to her size and movement.
My 18hh big moving sports horse can have me halfway out of the plate if he looks at something wrong, hesitates or leaps forward- the power and athleticism is in a different class.

 

[millitiger]

GB needs to keep the focus on breeding superb sport horses to match and even exceed those from the continent. Breeding horses for the every day rider is a different but equally important area. It's when the two get muddled up that problems arise.

I agree with this completely.

We shouldn't dumb down the breeding of competition horses in this country but we should also be remembering the other stream of horses that 90% of riders want- a steady, attractive, sound horse that can turn it's hand to all RC activities and you aren't likely to need a parachute for a hack if you give it a week off!

 

[siennamum]

I think there are a few factors.
1. a real lack of nice old fashioned all rounders being bred & too many imported bin end w/bloods
2. a lack of knowledge in the horsey community, everyone is now an expert and no one is allowed to tell them they are clueless, once upon a time there were terrifying matriarchs & nagsmen who would tell it like it is. HHO is a microcosm of this, there is some stupid advice doled out by people completely ill equipped or qualified to do so.
3. Poor training in an arena by poor trainers who get their PTT & feel equipped to teach
4. it is as cheap to own a horse as it is to have weekly lessons, people buy a horse where once upon a time they might have learned to ride
5. No places to go and either ride, or hire a hack. People used to go to the riding school to go for hacks - this seems to have stopped. People think they have learned to ride when they have mastered antering in an arena
6. Natural horsemanship, it has made people think horses can be managed via a method they can learn from a DVD
7, The attitude that horses are machines aren't they? if it goes wrong it must be faulty, I will send it back & get another

the list is endless really, sadly

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

I'm gonna stop you all on the blaming breeding thing. Breeding for upper levels does not mean quirky and difficult. Rideability is very important when it comes to any serious breeder. Now crossing a warmblood stallion on the freak show mare you want to settle down. Not so good. 9 times out of 10 those tail wringing, ear pinning, always looking for a fight mares produce exactly this in their fillies. Sometimes you get lucky with the geldings. They are bred for competition. They do this well. The majority do it well at lower levels. But it's more a management thing than breeding unless of course your trying to fix things you have no hope of fixing.

I don't particularly like people knocking the breeding aspect if you actually know nothing of it. It's easier than looking at what may be going on in other areas. Say I don't know, living inside all day, out for an hour, over and underfeeding the wrong thing, lunging for an hour to get the sillies out then trotting for 5 mins while the sun, moon, and stars line up so everything is just perfect. Then go out on the weekend in an 80cm class and say, yup it's the breeding, that's why it all went wrong. Stupid warmbloods. Enough average very good all around horses happen with super breeding that we shouldn't have to breed for the average rider. It's true.

My favorite saying is start as you mean to go on. From the min their born, through to raising, breaking, and then whatever their supposed to be or want to be. I have pretty easy going horses. Warmbloods and TB's. But it wouldn't matter what I had we have rules to play by here. And I don't see the point of blaming anyone or anything other than myself if it doesn't work out. So many pieces of the puzzle there is no point on focusing on one angle.

Terri

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

I think many people overestimate their ability therefore buy horses that are unsuitable for them. I also think as well that horses Can behave differently with different styles of riding. I have witnessed this myself with my own horses in the past. But sellers can and do misrepresent horses, I have aquired horses that werent what they have supposed to have been in the past and came with hidden issues

With the sphere shifting to being more competition horses out there than heinz 57 riding horses and quite a lot of blood being produced there is little out there with an affordable price tag for those who are maybe ready for something other than a riding school horse but maybe not at the level of a lower level comp horse. I can remember when you could go get a nice RC/PC type for less than 2k nowadays people are asking 3k/4k and above for something with no breeding or comp history other than competing at PC/RC level and those who are just looking to work their way without breaking the bank just cant afford to purchase what they require hence mis matching.

 

[tasel]

A while back, horses got bred to perform, but those that couldn't reach the top could be used as 'leisure horses'. The more they breed for success though, the less likely the above can happen. What will happen to those horses that may be powerful, etc. but not of Olympic potential?

The thing is... the better the horses become (i.e. more agile, powerful and - also - intelligent), the better riders have to be to keep up. You have to become more agile, stronger, and bl**dy hell keep up with their intelligence. My horse has a lot of all this, and that makes her a bit of a problem horse.

I can easily keep up with her cleverness (we think similar ), but she's way more agile and powerful than I'd like her to be, to be honest. I want her to be backed soon (she was off for years due to injury), and I can't do it on my own. The problem is that some people who are able to keep up with her agility and power, cannot keep up with her cleverness! She will try trick them out, and some will lose their patience. They can't use just their strength with her either, as she really loses confidence in you when you do that.

I FEEL LIKE AN UTTER FAILURE WITH HER.

We have a real bond. She canters all the way from the other end of the big field to me whenever I show up. She behaves different with me than with other people, and I know that if I had the ability to ride like, say, Carl Hester, she'd be ridden by now, and probably going well.

But I don't.

I'm trying to be a better rider so I can ride her one day, but that costs time and money - both things I don't have much of.

 

[Cortez]

Where has the professional rider / trainer / nagsman / riding school / stud farm gone? Other than racing, it all just seems VERY amatuerish now. People's perceptions and ideas about horses, riding and training seem to have gone way out of whack, with no professionals to turn to - or is that due to lack of finances?

 

[Grumpy Jewel]

I don't think the tuition is as good as it was. Riding schools are few and far between and good ones who teach to a good standard web harder to find. Having worked in 2 riding schools, 1 was amazing and really thought well and I am incredibly grateful to them for the firm foundations They have put in place, and the other thought that getting the basics was great and as long as no one fell of everything was great. I think we also have a culture of riders who are learning as they go. We have had a few liveries who have brought a horse after a few lessons, but have no idea how to progress further and develop both horse and rider. Both points have been mentioned before, but I think many factors are the reason.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

No, I think the problem is that we aren't producing as many proper riders, instead we have lots more people who can sit on a horse rather than ride it.

This.

People are also losing the skill of adjusting how they ride to suit the particular horse that they are on.

 

[indie999]

Riding schools are riding schools if you like going round in circles. My kids could only go in a school. No hacking allowed insurance(not the schools fault). Lots of people well read but not practical, I love talking to the oldies around my way the old fashioned horse people who dont mess around and get on with it etc, a horse is to be worked too and they learn their job, not just a leisure accessory. All the gadgets and gizmos amazes me. Some things are better some things are not. Not a fan of rugs but even they are better(although a warm winter morning and they still have them on in the field as lazy owner hasnt been to remove them..my pet hate), fly masks are better, outdoor gear for us is better. Snobbery with huge feed selection.Some folks laugh at me being a happy hacker but a lot of them could not hack their horses and I think they are scared to leave their menages, the look of horror when I ask if they are coming out for a hack, but they think they are more expert and technical. Out hacking you meet the unexpected and its all experience for me and horse. They get use to it.

But a true old fashioned allrounder is hard to find. I never claim to be an expert at all.