Are YOs and YMs people to be feared?

Shadowdancing said:
Sadly it's very common I think- based largely on the tales of friends and associates. Because demand will always exceed supply. There will almost always be someone willing to move to the stables you've just left- around here anyway.
I adored the owners at my last yard. Will tell anyone and everyone how great they are; nice NORMAL people! But they had limited land and used the larger fields for their bigger herd- the geldings- meaning my mare had to stay in for weeks on end as her winter field was soon just a bog. Some horses handle this... mine can't. So I had to move. Gave them plenty notice and they were thoroughly professional. Friendly and polite to the end. Miss them terribly!
Current yard.. Im doing fine but others aren't and there is a bit of my way or the highway going on... it's very unsettling.
I wish there was a regulatory or governing body for yards... some of what goes on is beyond appalling... and I'm located not far away from where that horse was shot and dumped in the owners garden...��
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Would you be prepared to pay an increased livery charge to cover the licence fee, the business rates and tax which could not be avoided, as it is currently be many YOs, and the costs of upgrading many of the facilities to meet the requirements of the licensing authority - bearing in mind that a RS locally was required to paint all stables black on bottom 3rd of walls with white above, as a new condition of licence renewal?
 
Every yard I've been at since moving to the UK has been 'my way or the highway.' There are plenty of those in the US too; I was just lucky that the barn I was at most of the time wasn't one of them.

When I've had a horse issue (fencewalking, always bloody fencewalking) that involves the YO doing something or changing how they are doing something, it feels like Middle East peace negotiations. And it's about as effective.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Would you be prepared to pay an increased livery charge to cover the licence fee, the business rates and tax which could not be avoided, as it is currently be many YOs, and the costs of upgrading many of the facilities to meet the requirements of the licensing authority - bearing in mind that a RS locally was required to paint all stables black on bottom 3rd of walls with white above, as a new condition of licence renewal?
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There is nothing in the Riding School Act that requires walls to be painted and as it is a government statute the local authority cannot write its own byelaws or conditions.
 
AdorableAlice said:
There is nothing in the Riding School Act that requires walls to be painted and as it is a government statute the local authority cannot write its own byelaws or conditions.
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That may well be the case, AA. I know that you are in a position to know these things *but* I can assure you that the particular demand was made by the inspector, or whatever his correct title is, at a RS local to me. He presumably was exaggerating his powers.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
That may well be the case, AA. I know that you are in a position to know these things *but* I can assure you that the particular demand was made by the inspector, or whatever his correct title is, at a RS local to me. He presumably was exaggerating his powers.
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Probably like that planning officer who said he would make a condition of planning that my windows were painted white to match the house next door ( white plastic with huge white plastic conservatory ) .
I smiled sweetly and said we would see him in court .
He had no rights what so ever to impose on my rights in that way .
Presumably some people just do as they are told .
 
Pearlsasinger said:
That may well be the case, AA. I know that you are in a position to know these things *but* I can assure you that the particular demand was made by the inspector, or whatever his correct title is, at a RS local to me. He presumably was exaggerating his powers.
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Disgraceful and well worth the yard affected questioning the LA.
 
Unfortunately I've been at a few yards where there is at least some awkwardness regarding leaving.
At one previous yard, seemed lovely when we looked round and moved there, then as winter came in, found that there were a few porkies about how much turnout there was, school use was restricted, YO got new dogs that went for horses and people on more than one occasion...Etc. quietly and carefully looked for somewhere to move to and didn't hand in notice or tell anyone until we had somewhere to go... Instincts proved right; as soon as polite one month notice was given, with payment in advance, she was awful. Hay taken out of stables etc culminating in drunken screaming that if we didn't take our two horses away immediately they'd be tied up to the front gate and left, and any belongings left at the yard were now hers... An extreme example I know.

Been on other yards where after notice given, and received well as due to change in work hours etc, there had been distinct frostiness, and almost hurt feelings that you're leaving.

Most common issue is lack of consistency in enforcing rules - and surprise rules. I understand why, but almost every yard I've been at has had a degree of 'if you don't like it you can leave'.

Don't get me wrong - some have been absolutely amazing overall, but not without moments of having to tiptoe around either the YO/YM...
 
YorksG said:
....... As an example of the hidden cost/work I spent two hours yesterday sorting out some trees that were growing too low over part of the field, this was just for our animals, on our land, so no actual cost, but if it were for liveries that would be two hours of unpaid work, the
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????
Isn't this just looking after your own property rather than unpaid work.
Do your livery clients not pay anything?
 
pepsimaxrock said:
????
Isn't this just looking after your own property rather than unpaid work.
Do your livery clients not pay anything?
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I think YorksG has her own place with no liveries and meant that maintenance work takes ages and isn't usually factored in the overall cost of running a livery yard... but I'm sure she'll clarify!

Tbf, not all YOs do that sort of maintenance work. Ours is very much of the "it needs doing but you're doing it yourself" approach so we've done all the tree and hedge trimming/fertilising/fence-fixing in the field ourselves.
 
I don't fear YO/YM but having met a lot of them I do consider 90% to be barking mad/arrogant people with absolutely no concept of customer service or people skills. Some it's because they're weak and will say yes to anybody, leading to the rules changing all the time. Some they're fickle and change the rules regularly to suit themselves. A lot lie about what is offered/included at the yard when you view, or what's offered/included changes when the rules change, making a suitable yard suddenly unsuitable.

I've seen many people try to have conversations with YO/YM as if they were a normal customer of a normal business (and tried to have a few of those conversations myself), only to be met with some form of nastiness from the YO/YM. I have a policy now of never asking for anything from YO/YM. I might mention in conversation something which I'm having trouble with, if they seem a genuinely nice person, just to see the reaction in case they prove to be helpful. But if that gets me nowhere I never ask outright for x or y, I just leave if the yard as it is isn't working out for me or my horse.

I've seen people kicked off yards the second they've given their notice and told to get their horse gone by the end of the day. I've seen horse care/handling go downhill when someone on full/part/assisted DIY is going through their notice period. I've seen YO claim to have not been paid when they have (and luckily not in cash, so the livery could prove it). I've also seen liveries take the pee asking for ridiculous things/special treatment which would cost YO/YM in time or money, or make things unworkable for other liveries, then get offended and cause an atmosphere themselves when YO/YM says no.

The reason I don't fear YO/YM is because I won't be messed around by anyone. I've posted this before and I know lots don't agree with it, but if there's any sign (from their behaviour with other liveries) that the YO/YM will be difficult about someone leaving then I don't give notice. I never leave owing money, but I'll leave on the last day I've paid for and without giving notice, if I think there could be a problem. Occasionally I'll move the horses first and load my stuff quickly before telling the YO/YM I'm going. It's the only way with a lot of them not to end up paying your last weeks/months money then leaving before your notice period is up (due to the YO/YM behaviour, and without any refund). I'm just not prepared to be stitched up like that and lose money for no reason, or put up with my horse being treated badly, so I just won't take the risk with difficult YOs. I don't care if there's an atmosphere for the notice period though, it's not like I'm there to be their best friend anyway I'm just there to see to my horse.

I guess either I'm not a good judge of character at first glance or the YO/YM are good actors, because obviously I wouldn't take my horse somewhere if I thought the YO/YM was an unreasonable person prone to unprofessional behaviour. It is strange how many YO/YM take it personally if you leave. It's as if you've gone to them and told them they personally are not good enough, instead of saying you've found somewhere closer to home/more suited to your new needs etc. I never say I'm leaving because you never fix the fencing, or because the dog bit me, or whatever, even if it's true, so I've no idea why some YOs feel the need to be all hurt/offended and go on the defensive.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Would you be prepared to pay an increased livery charge to cover the licence fee, the business rates and tax which could not be avoided, as it is currently be many YOs, and the costs of upgrading many of the facilities to meet the requirements of the licensing authority - bearing in mind that a RS locally was required to paint all stables black on bottom I 3rd of walls with white above, as a new condition of licence renewal?
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I think the problem with YO's that many people seem to be reporting will largely go away when business rates are tripled this year and the majority of yards will be forced to close. The ones that are left will hopefully have to be licensed ensuring standards are high. Of course most people won't be able to afford these yards so there lies the end to the problem of 'crazy, loopy, nutty, power mad' YO's lol! I think getting back to OP no you should not 'fear' your YO, but if you're not happy with things vote with your feet? Respect is a 2 way thing though and I know many clients just don't appreciate how difficult it is running a yard. :-/
 
On the other hand as a yard owner, I think it is some of the liveries that are to be feared! I have had horses for 40 odd years and kept myself to myself just happily pottering about on my horses, but since having my yard, I have never met as many bitchy, rude and ignorant people in the horsey world!
I have a small yard with mostly very nice liveries who we all get on well with but larely I just seem to be getting absolute bampots on the yard. Had one woman who was on the yard for 3 days and caused that much upset I asked her to leave. As she stayed next door to the yard and didnt drive, I relented and let her stay on the condition she was civil to people and basically stayed out of their way. All was fine for a few weeks then it all started again to the extent that I lost several liveries. She then went out a hack one day and never came back! She had moved to another yard without saying. I am now finding it difficult finding liveries as I have found out she is messaging people on facebook that are looking for livery and telling them not to go to my yard!
So please, put yourself in a yard owners shoes before you start saying they are mad etc, they have to put up with a lot.
 
Flora said:
On the other hand as a yard owner, I think it is some of the liveries that are to be feared! I have had horses for 40 odd years and kept myself to myself just happily pottering about on my horses, but since having my yard, I have never met as many bitchy, rude and ignorant people in the horsey world!
I have a small yard with mostly very nice liveries who we all get on well with but larely I just seem to be getting absolute bampots on the yard. Had one woman who was on the yard for 3 days and caused that much upset I asked her to leave. As she stayed next door to the yard and didnt drive, I relented and let her stay on the condition she was civil to people and basically stayed out of their way. All was fine for a few weeks then it all started again to the extent that I lost several liveries. She then went out a hack one day and never came back! She had moved to another yard without saying. I am now finding it difficult finding liveries as I have found out she is messaging people on facebook that are looking for livery and telling them not to go to my yard!
So please, put yourself in a yard owners shoes before you start saying they are mad etc, they have to put up with a lot.
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Have you considered contacting the old liveries and telling them she's gone, in case they wanted to come back? Even if they don't, it will stop them telling people they meet that they left a lovely yard due to a crazy livery making everyone's life a misery, because that will be putting off new clients too. It'll be better if they're able to say the crazy one is gone now.
 
Over 30 years and several house moves I have been at livery on only five yards, from ones with fifty horses to one where there was only me. Perhaps I am just easy going, I used to go I muck out, poo pick, ride etc and never ever had a problem with the YO, in fact you hardly ever saw them.
I think the problem is now livery yards are very much a service industry, people want a service but want to pay very little, so people are working long hours and having huge loans for a pittance so they get grumpy and say 'this is what it is or move'
How many people will pay over £2 for a cup of coffee everyday but begrudged paying someone that for feeding and turning out. It doesn't excuse being rude and aggressive but perhaps explains why some YO/M get defensive when they have tried what they see as their best and people are not happy and leave.
 
They shouldn't be - but livery (and tbh many horse providers/suppliers) is a business that isn't run like a business in many cases. What this means is that you have resentful liveries who feel that they have been misled and YOs who feel taken advantage of and underpaid. The common issue, similar to many people who try to make a living from their hobby is that there is a distinct lack of business planning and boundaries on a lot of yards which in itself, causes drama and all that goes with it.

It is interesting that farriers, especially the younger generation appear to be getting more professional - in timekeeping, organisation and generally running their businesses than there used to be - is part of their college training now covering this? Liveries need to be realistic too, if they want to have safe, organised, professional yards these yards have to be sustainable and therefore profitable. For this to happen customers have to pay for it. However, once they have paid for it and signed a contract it should be enforceable on both sides. In my experience the yard that appears to be most expensive can actually work out cheaper than the bargain bucket yard ie better fencing/more turnout = less injuries/lower forage bill and so on.

Talking to friend recently who is on a yard that is going badly downhill but is relatively cheap (it is also the bitchiest/nastiest led by the YO and her supremely PA husband place I've ever known) who told me that she couldn't afford any other yard locally. I asked her to add up how much she was paying above her livery in extra feed, vets bills and farriers because of the conditions there to get a true cost. Realistically her livery costs are much higher than the weekly fee but also liveries have to accept that in the more populated areas, that maybe they can't afford to keep a horse well. By well, I mean with adequate funds,care, facilities and turnout to a minimum standard. It's tough to face that, I know because I've been there and it's horrible but it is also life. :(
 
pepsimaxrock said:
????
Isn't this just looking after your own property rather than unpaid work.
Do your livery clients not pay anything?
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I don't have livery clients, this was trying to show the hidden costs/work, which very few livery clients are prepared to pay sufficient for when they are looking at costs
 
YorkSG, if you did decide to have liveries all you can do is charge the price that works for you and makes it viable and see if you get any takers. You may be surprised that there are many of us, even on DIY, not looking for dirt cheap bargain basement places to keep our horses :)
 
skint1 said:
YorkSG, if you did decide to have liveries all you can do is charge the price that works for you and makes it viable and see if you get any takers. You may be surprised that there are many of us, even on DIY, not looking for dirt cheap bargain basement places to keep our horses :)
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Having seen plenty of livery customers in RL and on here, there is no way on the planet that I would have liveries here! I also believe that the majority of people looking for livery look for the cheapest deal they can get. If livery yards paid all they should then an awful lot of people would be unable to continue to keep their horses at livery.
 
Wow this is an eye opener, I am very blessed with my yard. It is great and very professionally run. A have found a real gem and will stay there as long as they have us. It's good because they keep the mares and geldings separate in small groups and only have a 3 or 4 teenagers on the yard so it is a good mix of people, they definately have it right.
 
I've been both poacher AND gamekeeper - in the dim and distant past, when the world was a younger place, having always up until that time had my horse nearby at my uncle's farm and/or at home, I had to go out into the big wide world and find livery for him elsewhere. It wasn't easy, there were not a huge number of places in those days (early 1980's) who were geared up for livery; certainly a lot of farmers hadn't got onto the bandwagon and it was very hard to find anywhere. In the end I was forced to pay £25 for full livery, per week, which was a helluva lot of money in those days - but there wasn't any other choice. You had two choices: either put up or shut up, and you were very aware that if you raised your head above the parapet then you'd be out PDQ down the road with your horse on a headcollar, and yourself with a duvet & thermos flask. The choices then were very limited and it really was that grim.

Later on in life, my fortunes changed somewhat, and now I am one of the dreaded YO breed. We only ever have had room for one DIY livery, and in the last 25 years have only had one really awful livery and she left after a month, she was a bad egg and it was a horrible experience having her on the place - she just left her poor pony in the stable for the weekend and went off!. We live on site so it is important to have peace and harmony!

I always remember how awful it was being "on a yard" and try not to be too much of a Dragon!! Our current livery is a really lovely person and we've been through a lot with various horses since she's been here, yes it IS possible to be good chums with one's livery without compromising one's role at all.
 
This makes interesting reading . . and im now nervous. I've owned horses nearly all my life . . and always been a DIY owner . . Until February comes, im going on livery. . .since posting on here on another thread, I realised 4.45am starts are no longer working, im getting older, I feel older and work is getting more demanding.

Is there any difference between DIY property owners compared to livery owners? . . Am I making a mistake going on livery, or should I stick it out and back track my DIY notice?
 
jumping.jack_flash said:
This makes interesting reading . . and im now nervous. I've owned horses nearly all my life . . and always been a DIY owner . . Until February comes, im going on livery. . .since posting on here on another thread, I realised 4.45am starts are no longer working, im getting older, I feel older and work is getting more demanding.

Is there any difference between DIY property owners compared to livery owners? . . Am I making a mistake going on livery, or should I stick it out and back track my DIY notice?
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Stop panicking :smile3: Most YOs are bat s hit crazy and many lie through their teeth. Once you accept that's just how it is, keep your head down, look after your horse, pay on time, abide by the rules, stay out of yard drama and try not to be a nuisence, all that's left is to look at your horse and think "Is (s)he well? Being looked after adequately? If not, what can I do to alter that?". Sometimes that means doing work yourself that you've actually paid the yard to do or buying things which the yard is supposed to provide, sometimes it means keeping a better eye on things so they know they're being watched, sometimes it means changing the way you do things eg leaving turnout rug on all the time so someone can't do it up wrong or put the wrong one on, and sometimes it means moving yards. Try not to worry and if you need to move, do.
 
I have my horse on a wonderful livery yard - I have kept my horses at home for all of my adult life and now, due to divorce and house move, I have one on full livery and it's fabulous! I spent a long time emailing the YO before I moved and, once the house sale was finalised, I paid a weekly sum to retain a stable until we moved. It would have been nice if I could have bought a house nearer the yard but it's only 20 minutes so not too much of a problem. It's great being able to turn up and not think "Need to sort the fence out, need to cut that hedge, need to pull that ragwort" etc which is all I did when I had them at home. Rarely rode as I was always doing maintenance, buying feed, poo picking, vet, farrier. At the yard there are interesting clinics arranged, people to hack with, 700 acres of off road hacking, people to chat to and a really knowledgeable YO. No children, no teenagers, no dogs and handpicked clients who all get on. Don't lose heart JJF - just do your homework, lots of visits to potential places and go with your gut instincts. I haven't regretted being on a livery yard for a single second!
 
YorksG said:
Given that most YOs live on site, I can't imagine that they would welcome people with that view of them to their home!
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Indeed! Sugar and spice, have you met 'most ' of the yard owners in the country? I am none of the things described on this forum and I really resent being branded just because some of you have had one or more bad experiences! I really do wish sometimes clients would put themselves in the YO's shoes for once. It's like juggling a box of frogs most of the time running a yard :-( I like to think I've got the balance right between 'client' and 'friend' but I'm sure a lot of YO's struggle with that, as isn't there generally for some odd reason, a secret sense of resentment for the person in charge in any situation?
 
This thread has thrown my old age plans into complete chaos! I had thought of downsizing to a smaller house if I'm left on my own and putting two horses in livery. Or potentially staying here and having a couple of liveries for company.

Now I don't want to do either!
 
ycbm said:
This thread has thrown my old age plans into complete chaos! I had thought of downsizing to a smaller house if I'm left on my own and putting two horses in livery. Or potentially staying here and having a couple of liveries for company.

Now I don't want to do either!
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The same !
 
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