Arena surfaces- how do we know that they are safe??

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seabiscuit

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This is something that has really troubled me for so long! Sorry I think that I have posted this before, but I'm posting it again, as it REALLY bothers and worries me!!
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How do we know that the arena surfaces that we ride on are safe for our horses? How do we know that they are not too shallow/hard or too deep and soft??Or too unlevel?
Where do we draw the line?

People ride on arenas, at competitions, at training clinics, at friends houses- and we never walk/check the surface before riding our precious horses on it beforehand.

Obv. we can see when a arena is too deep. But what about when its too hard and compacted? At what point is it *too* hard and compacted?

The arena at my livery yard ( that I've just moved to) feels pretty solid to walk on, but to ride on, it feels absolutely fine. I did some digging and after about 1 inch, got to what was either very compacted sand,or the membrane- I wasnt sure, as it was all so compacted. They hold regular training clinics on this surface, but I doubt I , or anyone should be riding on it. How do I know what depths are safe?
 
It's a question that I wonder about too.

Forest Edge warm up sounded very firm the other day but seemed to be riding well, but then at an indoor school at a different venue that holds BSJA rounds (amongst numerous other competitions) I moved a jumpstand after a training session and to my horror found concrete less than an inch down and on scuffing around exposed an area of concrete over a metre square, all less than an inch of loose surface down. My mare hasn't been there to jump since!

I do tend to have a walk on the arena surface if I possibly can, but then again it's down sometimes to personal preference. My favourite arena ever was one which felt like walking on a beach after the tide had just gone out, other people hated it as too firm but I wouldn't have wanted to work my horse constantly in their arena which felt to me way too deep. It was good for making Flynn pick his feet up however but the poor chap was knackered after about 20 minutes.
 
That is really worrying that they would have a surface like that at a big competition venue.
I also absolutely hate surfaces that are too deep as well.

There was a arena at a local livery yard in Cambs that was mostly concretic around the edges- yet a *top* dressage trainer ( I think one of the pony team selectors) held regular clinics there and everyone seemed completely oblivious.

I really think that there needs to be a governing body for it, like a health and safety rules and regulations thing, with regular inspections and certain standards that every *publically used* arena has to meet
 
BD did a study on this a year or so ago, canvassing members about what surfaces they ride on and the number of injuries their horses had, as well as the level they ride at etc. It was not really a scientific study but not without merit. I think the upshot was that consistency in the surface was vital, and that silica sand/rubber/fiber mixture or waxed surface were best, so long as they were correctly laid and well maintained (even and level). Deep surfaces predispose horses to soft tissue strains and hard, unyielding surfaces put pressure on joints and especially on the structures within the foot.

There are venues that I will not compete at because their surfaces are too deep, end of. It makes me cross. Luckily my livery yard has a decent outdoor on silica sand and rubber and an indoor with a modern waxed surface both of which are pretty much spot on.
 
Don't think you can regulate the quality of the surface - people just vote with their feet TBH. Our two prefer a firm surface, they flounder if it's deep. I have to say that these days, I don't think I'd put in an arena unless I could afford to do it with one of the waxed surfaces. But we work ours on grass as much as possible all year round.
 
I love the waxed surfaces as they have such level footing and arent deep but arent hard either. Perfect IMHO. Some rubber surfaces are far too deep, and I dont like riding on them at all.
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I have come across surfaces that people love, that I dislike as they are very firm, and I worry about jumping on them. I am very lucky as all our competition centres locally have excellent surfaces (Vale View, Arena Uk, Weston Lawns etc etc) I moved yards because the surface on my old yard wasnt good enough.
 
Last yard I was on had a horiffic arena. The mambrane was up and sticking through the top of the surface in about 27 places, it was full of stones that had come through the tears in the membrane, it was knee deep in bog sandard sand (that looked like it had come straight from the beach) with a tiny amount of rubber in it that was just...well..... lost amongst the sand.
Our YO said it was a perfect surface and very safe.






Yeah freakin' right!
 
Does anyone actually kniow what the perfect surface is though? If it is too deep, that is easy to spot, but how firm is too firm - especially if you compare it to grass?
 
If is has a "shallow" surface on a compact stone membrane, I would say that is too firm. I look at it in the same way I look at the ground on a XC course tbh! If it feels hard under foot, I would consider it personally too hard.
 
i went and tried a horse once and the 'school' felt like riding on a road... honestly, it was road scrapings and that was it. i refused to jump on it (though they were happy to) and felt SO sorry for the horses. it didn't have a mm of give. stupid people, poor horses. i think because the top part moved a bit sideways they thought it was alright, but it was rock hard.
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there are arguments that certain comp horse injuries might be caused by arena surfaces. i'm fussy and won't run a horse if the surface is crap, but most places have v good surfaces in my experience. the waxed-type ones that keep a hoofprint, as good turf does, are ideal imho.
 
It's something that concerns me too. Where I used to keep my horses I was allowed to use my neighbours sand/rubber manege & in the summer it got dry & deep but I couldn't really say anything. With hindsight, it must have been putting a lot of strain on the horses joints & it would probably have been better on the field.

Now I ride on grass at home and am fussy about jumping if the ground is hard. However I suspect hard ground is probably better than deep schools!

I also notice just how much slower my horses travel when I ride in a school which surely means it's harder work than grass. One venue near to me has a very dead surface - if you drop a pole on it there's no give at all.

Shocking about finding concrete 1" below the surface! That's crazy.
 
I've been told that for dressage anything with more than 2" give is too deep.
No idea where I read that though. Does that sound about right?
Because there is that side as well isn't there, actual depth of the sruface compared to how much give it has?
Just 2" deep of surface doesn't sound enough does it.
 
There has been alot of research into injuries and surfaces in racehorses but much less in other disciplines. Here is one study-

Preliminary Investigation of Maximal Fetlock Extension During Jump Landing Phase on Two Arena Surfaces; Two Dimensional Motion Analysis

Gemma Openshaw, Alison Northrop, Charlotte Brigden, Chris Stockwell and Dr Jaime Martin

Accepted for the British Society of Animal Science (Equine) Conference to be held in September 2005

Surface type has a recognised effect on the biomechanics of a horse, yet suitability of surfaces to discipline has not been fully substantiated. Investigation of the landing phase of jumping is integral to understanding training and injury due to generation of the highest impact forces during this phase (Meershoek et. al. 2001). Maximal fetlock extension may be useful as an indication of the magnitude of ground reaction forces of different surfaces, during in-field investigations. Ideal exercise surface conditions should be a balance of energy absorption to minimise concussion and energy return to aid performance (Barrey et. al. 1991). The aim of this study was to perform a preliminary investigation of forelimb fetlock kinematics over a 1 metre fence during the landing phase on 2 arena surface types.

Five horses in medium work and average fitness were selected for their jumping ability. Horses were ridden by the same rider and jumped a two strided double with the last fence being 1 metre in height. Anatomical skin markers were placed on the lateral and medial surfaces of the forelimbs in locations according to Butcher and Ashley-Ross (2002). This protocol was carried out on 2 surface types; sand/rubber (SR) and sand/fibre (SF). A high speed camera (Photron Super 10K) captured the forelimbs upon landing after the second fence and 2 dimensional analysis was used to quantify fetlock angle in the stance phase of jump landing.

These findings show there was a significant difference in maximal fetlock extension (P<0.001) on the jump landing phase of the two arena surface types for the lead limb, there being more extension on the SR surface than on the SF surface. This indicates that higher ground reaction forces are exerted on the lead limb from the critical locomotion event, jump landing, on this surface. These results highlight the need for further development in order to understand the implications this has to the training and fitness of a horse’s limbs to serve their purpose in competition

And this from forge magazine-

Arena characteristics

Excessive ground reaction force can affect the performance of all horses, from the leisure horse to the Olympic equine. Much work has been done in recent years to ascertain the affects of different surfaces on a horse’s soundness, from surveys aiming to establish whether arena characteristics and surface maintenance affect performance, to computer models that predict how surfaces ‘dampen’ the vibrations caused by hooves hitting the ground at speed. The Animal Health Trust has demonstrated that significant relationships exist between injury in dressage horses and particular features of surfaces on which horses regularly work, and experts agree that dressage horses are at particular risk of proximal suspensory desmitis (PSD), a widespread cause of injury to athletic horses and an increasingly common cited cause of ‘loss of use’ in insurance claims.
A poor arena surface can also easily result in long-term equine injuries; too-hard arena surfaces don’t absorb energy and can cause concussive injuries, while deep surfaces can cause strains. “I am increasingly concerned about the increase in equine PSD cases, and am very interested in the effects of surface characteristics on soundness,” says Haydn Price. “Fortunately, I am not relying on subjectivity to show me these effects – by simply filming a horse on a flat, hard surface and then again in a sand arena, it is possible to clearly see the compensatory work carried out by the horse’s limbs and joints once in the arena. For example, the hock may rotate excessively in a deep or soft sand arena as the foot lands and the loading phase of the limb begins; this can of course be physically detrimental to a horse being asked to perform high level movements. I am convinced that slowed-down video footage will be a very useful tool in the continued research into the causes of PSD.”

Another reference-
http://www.researchportal.ch/unizh/p8195.htm

Ther was alot of trouble after the Athens Olympics because it was thought the surface was to blame for some SJ injuries. The key is to maintain any surface and avoid extremes of deepness/firmness.
 
This really concerns me and I have a huge issue with stones. A few years ago my horse suffered with on and off lameness issues throughout a whole summer after cantering over a large stone in a friend's arena. I recently went to a jumping clinic at a professional eventer's yard and was horrified that his arena was full of large and very sharp stones!!! I now have a personal phobia about going to training/clinics elsewhere as you never know what you're going to find. That said, the surfaces I've competed on at BD comps have always been really good.
 
on a similar train of thought I don't have a huge issue with surfaces as our one at home is nice and all the places I go to compete at I think are adequate for the discipline im doing or above. I DO have an issue with 'all weather take offs and landing' I have been to some xc schooling places and round their water jump has actually been stones! just stones all round it so that you couldn't even pick a grass route to any fence, big grey random shaped stones which I consider a far from ideal jumping surface, what's the logic there?....
 
Chloe, i'm with you on that one, i've been to places where the 'all-weather' take off and landing areas were flints... well, since i know of someone who had a v v good horse's career ended when a flint flew up and cut through a good xc boot and through the tendon, i get rather worried by flints and stones... if i'm walking a course i pick them up, too.
 
There was an article about this subject in H&H on Nov 5th page 32. It found horses worked on sand had the most injuries, sand caused tripping. Woodchip caused slipping, wax coated could cause strain from sticking,sand and rubber mix was best. It also mentions that horses with an uphill way of going are likely to have problems as they put all their weight on their hind legs first. Unfortunately the dressage horses that we all admire and love may only be sound for a short while! Are we breeding horses that are going to have problems , are we as guilty as dog breeders?
 
Interesting thread.... I asked a vet whether they preferred a too hard or too deep surface, and he said deep, as hard causes excessive concussion therefore arthritis etc, whereas deep does not cause as many.

Would love to have a perfect arena, as the one at my yard is a little deep for my liking, but then the one at my old yard was quite hard....
 
I went to dressage on Sunday and the warm up was full of boulders and clay, it looked like a ploughed field with lots of water everywhere and had hardly any surface the horses hit the rubble constantly and this was the best 20 x 20m area of what must be a huge arena possibly 60 x 60m or even 80 x 80m. I gave up warming up after 5 mins and walked round the car park and went in - definitely not ideal but better than risking my horse's legs.
 
I think mine at home is fairly near perfect although is woodfibre but it's been very good so far and we've had it 4 years.

We have several venues locally I avoid like the plague as the surface is just no good enough, and after my horse getting a corn form jumping on a very bad surface I hadn't walked on to check, so I don't go to rallies or anything there. My pony club think I'm being a stupid snob but I really couldn't care less, it's my horse that matters.
 
QR: Here I am often surprised to see how deep people keep ordinary arenas. As sand is widely available in Belgium, and rubber is banned on surfaces (yes really), it is the most common surface. During competition months the liveries think I'm nuts when I rush out just after it's rained and set up loads of jumps, but it's the only time it's ok to at our place imo. At competition venues there has been a surge of popularity for the Geopat surface, and I have to say I really like it, it seems to work indoor and out, and in all weather conditions. It rides fairly similar to some waxed surfaces I came across in the UK, but I don't think it is, it's some special kind of sand plus fibres.
 
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