Arthritis in hips?

[Pearlsasinger]

My vet uses laser acupuncture on the horses and it works extremely well. I can fully understand how/why your dog was resistant to manipulation on Monday, our Rottweiler would be. She doesn't like vets taking liberties - in fact she never has done since she had her first vacc at 9 weeks and objected to having her temp taken.

 

[CorvusCorax]

That's pretty much what happened to mine, he didn't appreciate being roughly handled by a stranger from behind and therefore it meant his hips were bad....

 

[fiwen30]

It’s been almost a week on the Loxicom, and under intense observation, and I’m still not happy with his way of going. He’s been restricted to a 10 minute, flat, pavement walk at his own speed with as much sniffing time as he wants. The non-slip boots have helped a bit, but I’ve found they don’t really stay secure enough for long periods of time, and can cause a stumbling hazard, which obviously isn’t what we want.

I’ve also noticed his back right seems to buckle out at the knee when he stands still for long periods of time, like when he has dinner. I’m not sure if this is a voluntary weight-shifting to ease discomfort, or an involuntary buckling as his leg can’t support himself. If he was waiting on me to give food or medicine, he tends to sit rather than stand.

He’s not *as* stiff and hobbly when getting up, but still a little, and has been groaning a little bit more than usual I think.

Don’t know if something else is maybe going on with his knee, but he’ll be having another visit regardless, hopefully to see his regular vet this time.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I wouldn't walk on a hard surface TBH and not at all if he's displaying those sorts of symptoms. Also no on/off furniture, no stairs, no in and out of car or at least with assistance.

Ruffwear boots are the best I've found, the ones you buy in shops are generally pretty rubbish.

I'd also query CDRM/DM because of the rear leg thing and the fact he's half rough collie.

 

[{97702}]

Fiwen my advice based on my recent experiences would be to find a vet you trust and stick with them, only book appointments with them and don’t see anyone else (unless it’s an emergency of course!)

My frustrations and worry with Ace were made much MUCH worse by seeing 4 different vets who had 4 different opinions of what might be affecting him, before I lost patience and took him back to the one vet I trust. Oh how I wish I’d done that from the start.... it wouldn’t have changed the outcome of course, but I wouldn’t have had endless guessing, wrong conclusions and spending shedloads of money on totally unnecessary treatment from seeing the other vets.

I really hope you start getting some answers soon, I can totally empathise with how you must be feeling about this ?

 

[fiwen30]

I wouldn't walk on a hard surface TBH and not at all if he's displaying those sorts of symptoms. Also no on/off furniture, no stairs, no in and out of car or at least with assistance.

Ruffwear boots are the best I've found, the ones you buy in shops are generally pretty rubbish.

I'd also query CDRM/DM because of the rear leg thing and the fact he's half rough collie.

Thanks CC. Unfortunately we don’t have any grassy spaces that aren’t a car journey away. We’re going to be getting a ramp for the cars for vet journeys and the like.

I’ve already said no more stairs, which is fine as he sleeps downstairs anyway, but the no sofa thing is going to be hard. Again, it’ll need to be an indoor ramp I think.

It was Kong boots that I got, but will take a look at Ruff Wear. Haven’t heard of CDRM/DM, will do some research.

 

[fiwen30]

Fiwen my advice based on my recent experiences would be to find a vet you trust and stick with them, only book appointments with them and don’t see anyone else (unless it’s an emergency of course!)

My frustrations and worry with Ace were made much MUCH worse by seeing 4 different vets who had 4 different opinions of what might be affecting him, before I lost patience and took him back to the one vet I trust. Oh how I wish I’d done that from the start.... it wouldn’t have changed the outcome of course, but I wouldn’t have had endless guessing, wrong conclusions and spending shedloads of money on totally unnecessary treatment from seeing the other vets.

I really hope you start getting some answers soon, I can totally empathise with how you must be feeling about this ?

I know, I hate jumping between vets, but unfortunately his regular vet had taken last week off work, and with him hopping lame I couldn’t have left it till she was back. We’ll only be seeing her going forwards though, and will be interested to hear what she thinks about his symptoms and diagnoses so far.

 

[fiwen30]

Just back from a visit with our ever-lovely regular vet. Poor pup wasn’t keen on another poking and prodding, but she’s always very good with him.

She heard my concerns that he’s still unsound, and the buckling in his back right, and she had me walk him up and down to observe - he’s so short, you have to almost lie on the ground to see his legs properly! He turns properly on the leg, and doesn’t pivot on it, which is good, and he don’t drag his toes or scuff either - both would’ve indicated something nerve-related.

After closer observation, and a quick look at his X-rays, she thinks he may have had an injury a while back - a sprain, strain, pulled or twisted muscle, perhaps - something small and unnoticed, which may have snowballed as he compensated for it until the lameness became noticeable. His right thigh & bum muscle is very slightly shrunken in comparison to the left, but only noticeable when looking for it.

She’s quite confident that it’s a soft tissue lameness, as opposed to an arthritic lameness, although the management techniques will be similar.

He had a laser treatment this evening, and we’ve been sent home with Gabapentin and something beginning with ’par’ or ‘per’, but he’s currently lying in my lap so I don’t want to disturb him to get up and check! She also gave me the contact details for the physio who works with the vet practice and I’ll be contacting her, as well as taking him for his hydrotherapy assessment next week.

Vet is hopeful that with a multi-faceted treatment plan, we should be able to build his muscle tone back up to support and strengthen his right hind, and then maybe drop his pain meds to a maintenance level - but that’ll be a way off yet.

In a similar vein, we’ve been dragging our young cat back and forth to the vet too these past few weeks with a sniffly cough that has got temporary relief with steroid injections, but which keeps coming back. He’s going in for his own set of X-rays tomorrow to check for any nasties, so if any dog people had some spare vibes for our little cat boy, that would be appreciated!

 

[GSD Woman]

Sounds good. I'm glad that your regular vet was able to see him. And best wishes for your kitty boy.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

We had a cat that started with sneezing. After much treatment it turned out to be a nasal tumour. Really hope it isn't in your cat's case.

 

[fiwen30]

Thank you both. Baby cat’s X-rays were clean of anything really bad, but he’s showing signs of it being something bronchial/asthmatic, so the vet has ordered him an inhaler. Will be interesting trying to train and desensitise him so that we can administer it without him blowing a gasket. He’s a gentle, willing lad, so with some time and patience we should get there.

Rogan is doing well on the gabapentin and pardale. I’d been advised that the gabapentin might make him a bit dozy, but thankfully that hasn’t been the case. We’re going to his hydro/physio assessment tomorrow afternoon, and had to take photos and videos of his way of going before the appointment which was tricky as he’s so short! The little hop he has in his back right in trot is very apparent on video, which is upsetting. I really hope we’re able to get a good treatment and therapy plan in place tomorrow, so we can crack on with getting him straightened out again. Will keep you updated.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Um I know this is a dumb question but was luxating patella ruled out? It's a classic JRT thing.

 

[fiwen30]

Um I know this is a dumb question but was luxating patella ruled out? It's a classic JRT thing.

You know, none of the vets actually mentioned luxating patella at all, on any of our visits. I’ve been reading a little bit about it, and it doesn’t sound completely off-piste, but I’d imagine it would be a pretty obviously diagnosed issue? I’ll maybe say to the physio tomorrow, and see what they think, and then call the vet again.

 

[fiwen30]

Rogan was such a good, brave, willing boy at his hydro yesterday, bless him. He really does try his heart out.

We had a good chat at first, and she observed him at liberty for about 15 minutes, before noticing that the weakness and bucking in his right hind actually seems to be due to a hyper extension of his hock, rather than his hips or his knees, though obviously there’s going to be a knock-on effect on other parts of him. He does fully weight bear on that right hind, only the hock hyper extends so it seems to bow outwards when he stands stationary and flexes in and out as he lifts and places his feet. It’s just such a subtle thing to try and catch, as he’s got very short legs which are masqueraded by his long collie-butt-fluff She also had a good feel and a manipulate when I mentioned luxating patella, but couldn’t feel that ‘popping’ in and out which would be typical of LP.

She had him on the water treadmill to better see his way of going, and took videos as well. Only 2, 2-minute, sessions, but it wore him out, and he struggled to get back into the car without help - will definitely need to get a ramp very soon. He got layered under and over coats and blankets to keep him warm and wick away the damp for a few hours. The combination of the exercise and the car trauma had him hobbling again, but he’s back to his usual level of un-soundness today.

The hydrotherapist is referring us to the same vet physio that our consulting vet recommended, as well as wanting to see him again for another hydro session next week.

Typically, our regular consulting vet is off for another week, so I’m not able to call her and discuss the possibility of this hyper extended hock.

Everything that I’ve been reading has suggested that hock hyper extension is most commonly caused by trauma, although there can be osteoarthritis links as well. There’s sprints and braces you can get, but regular physio seems to be the way forward.

Has anyone ever had experiences of this before?

 

[fiwen30]

Update today, because we just saw the physio for his initial assessment this afternoon! She’s a vet first and foremost, a pain specialist, a physiotherapist, and an acupuncturist, and came very highly recommended by every sort of professional I’ve spoken to.

She was just wonderful, and had him pegged right away - she said he was incredibly ‘polite’, which is to say he doesn’t cause a fuss, he’s very stoic, and he always puts on his best front for everyone. He doesn’t protest or vocalise, but did pull away slightly as a polite ‘please don’t touch that’ when she flexed his rear right stifle.

In short, she believes he’s got cruciate damage to both rear legs, he’s showing alternate lameness on both legs, and she called his case ‘complex’. Obviously this is not great news, but she is optimistic, and I trust her. She explicitly told me not to Google for cruciate stuff after she’d left, as it’s both Big and Scary, not to mention the £££ involved.

Today he had acupuncture, is getting his pain meds (gabapentin & pardal) increased, and we’ve been instructed to continue with his hydro and short walks, and introduce heat therapy to his back and to his stifles. She’ll review his old X-rays, and get a second opinion from the head vet at our practice, who is the ‘limb vet’, and come back out to us in 2 weeks to check his progress.

She would like to eventually have him sedated and his cruciates properly checked, but with his heart murmur we’re trying holistic therapies & medication increases first, before we start looking at anything surgical just yet.

He was a very good boy, lovely and calm and relaxed, and she praised his excellent quality of life, and the proactive changes we’d already made to his environment & his exercise routine.

I can’t believe it’s only been 7 weeks since he first presented with a bit of a limp, it feels like months and months ago. I wish I could wave a magic wand, or a magic credit card, and have him be all fixed and well, but physio is a long road. Lots of rice and beans in our future, I think.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Lovely to hear that you feel you've found a wonderful veterinarian, that you trust. Even better that she's optimistic about the outcome, even though it might be a long, and costly, road to get there.

{{{{{{Vibes}}}}}}, and fingers crossed.

 

[fiwen30]

Update: just had the vet physio out to see us again this afternoon, 2 weeks since her first assessment visit. She think he’s got worse, and I’d be inclined to agree. She originally thought he had damage of some extent to both cruciates, but now believes that his left cruciate has actually ruptured, and that his compensating for it is having bad knock-ons to his right rear leg, and also to his back.

She looked over his last set of X-rays (hips & right back leg, when I thought it was that one which was the problem), and consulted with the orthopaedic vet at our practice, and wants me to book in with him for a full consultation. I’ve a feeling it’ll be initial X-rays of that left leg, and then discussions about surgery. It’s sooner than I expected, but she’s not happy to continue treating him as a chronic pain patient without having a confirmed diagnosis, which I respect and am thankful for.

I’ve worked with the orthopaedic vet, who is also the head vet, with my cat George when he developed oral cancer. He is straight talking and can be blunt, but I prefer that to vets who are wishy-washy in their language, and talk around sensitive subjects for fear of upsetting - I’d much rather be told straight, so as to be fully aware and informed.

His pain is still being managed, and he continues to be a bright, happy boy. Will either update or start a new thread once we have seen the vet and hopefully come closer to a formal diagnosis.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Thanks for the update, but sorry to hear that things isn't going in the right direction. That's just crap.

At least you can manage is pain, and he's bright, and happy, so that's positive. The No nonsense Orthopaedic veterinarian sounds great, fingers crossed he can help.

 

[splashgirl45]

good luck and hope he stays comfortable

 

[fankino04]

Sorry to read it's not a better update, good that the physio is genuine and won't treat without further vet investigation, hope you get some manageable options soon x

 

[fiwen30]

Thank you all, we’re booked in to see the orthopaedic surgeon first thing tomorrow, and will be guided by whatever he thinks is best.

Starting to fret about the cost of it, there’s lots of different surgery options for cruciates, depending on the individual case, and have seen prices between £1.5k and £6k for 1 leg! We have a bit put by, but not £6k.

Not sure if our practice has a payment plan system, or if it’ll be credit card applications. Will just have to wait and see, no point in worrying too hard till he’s been examined.

 

[splashgirl45]

my little terrier had cruciate surgery recently and it was just over £3000, he is insured , i almost cancelled it at renewal as it had gone up so much and didnt get round to it, luckily..

 

[sapphireb]

I've gone for the acupuncture option with 3 old bitches who developed different skeletal/joint related problems with old age. It worked so well, that when an old cat I had, also developed some weakness in her back (this was over 12 years ago, I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was towards the back/lower end of the spine, and visible on x-rays), my veterinarian said the cat would need daily pain killers for the rest of her life. I said that I was taking 2 bitches for acupuncture, and wanted to also try that with the cat, so they sent Selma's x-rays to the big veterinary hospital. Because they sadly don't do acupuncture on "my" clinic.

I called the big hospital which does do it, and talked to the physio nurse who had done acupuncture on my bitches. She said they had only tried it one cat before, and it didn't go well, but since I had an appointment for 2 of my bitches, and since they were so easy to do, she would increase the appointment time, so I could bring Selma as well, and they would give it a try.

As I recall, afterwards, she said she hadn't booked anyone else directly after me, because she thought she would have some scratches, and possible bites, that she would have to take care of. But an around 14 years old Selma had seen my bitches get their acupuncture first, and had then laid on the table as if she'd been getting acupuncture her whole life.
Next visit I think they did the bitches, and the cat at the same time, so I had 3 of them laying nicely with needles in them. I have a vague memory of the nurse showing it to a colleague who came to ask her something.

Anyhow, the reason we took Selma to the veterinarian was because we had noticed she had started to be reluctant to jump up in furnitures, and had started to not even want to jump up 50 cm to the lowest shelf in the cat tree where we have the cat food bowl/bowls. When we saw that, we suddenly realised that we couldn't remember when we had last seen her up in either of the other two taller cat trees, and she used to use them quite regularly.

In the evening after the first acupuncture session, Selma climbed straight up to the highest shelf of the floor to ceiling cat tree in our kitchen. She moved like a young cat again, jumped up to her food in the third cat tree without problems etc. She got a bit stiffer again before her second acupuncture session, but after a few sessions the stiffness stayed away for around 1 year, and then she had a new round of acupuncture.


With the bitches I noticed the acupuncture sessions had better effect if I took them for a short walk directly after a session, perhaps around 1 km or so. Fortunately Selma the cat didn't seem to need that, or perhaps the acupuncture would have had even better effect if I had been able to take also her for a short leash walk afterwards.

I know it isn't a miracle cure, and that acupuncture doesn't help everyone, but I usually recommend pet owners in your, or similar, situations to try it with their pet.

I have tried acupuncture myself, too. 2, 3 years ago, and it did help with the wonky nerves in my left shoulder. But even the Swedish health care have it's limits, after X months my problem should have been rehabilitated, and if I wanted/needed more acupuncture after that, I would have had to pay to go to someone privately.
My left shoulder would be very happy for some new sessions, but since it is myself, not my pets, it seems too expensive. Besides, with the Coronavirus around, it really is completely out of the question.


By the way, have you considered those click together wood/fake wood floors that you supposedly easily could put in?
ETA With the cost of buying a new house it might become a bit too expensive to do the whole house, but perhaps for the room where you think your dog will spend most time, it could be doable?

does anybody know of an acupuncture for dogs clinic within an hour of Banbury/Bicerster/Oxford?