As a non horsey mother of horsey children please explain to me

TheBlackMoth

TheBlackMoth

Well-Known Member
Joined
12 October 2006
Messages
8,116
Location
Regency England
Visit site
why so many people think the answer is to breed from difficult horses.

Surely, if a horse is a bucker or a rearer then it is foolish to reproduce that temperament. Surely there are too many horses out there needing home without breeding from horses that have failed to be suitable riding horses.

I possibly have no idea what I am talking about but if I had a dog that was aggressive and bit - I would not breed from it.

I'm sorry if I am being stupid but I keep seeing this week in week out. Difficult unridable horse and the first idea is to breed from it.

Please help me understand.
 
this point has been raised several times today on several posts, there is one below- its a good point but can we keep it to one thread please my brain cant cope!
blush.gif
tongue.gif
 
Sorry - I don't read all the posts in here and I keep seeing this. I just want to understand why. It is possible I am wrong about this but it does surprise me - it seems to be a sort of instinctive reaction - can't ride... breed. What happens to all the unrideable geldings?
 
I agree with you unless it is a health reason causing the problem, but again that health problem could be genetic and therefore back to the fact it should not be bred from!!

There are certain circumstances though that I would accept breeding from say a rearing mare, if that mare had had such bad history that rehabilitation into a riding horse was impossible, that behaviour would not necessarily be a trait that would be passed to the foal. Whereas if it is genuine temperament problem then it would. It is hard to differentiate between the two though.
 
I posted about a problem mare recently which I would like to buy, it reared and had behavioural issues, which I doubt were generic but rather environment. Even so, if I bought her (which now seems unlikely due to a silly price being asked) I doubt I would breed from her as I just could not see me having a good chance of getting something to work with. I would breed from my own mare though. But a lot of people would breed from the first mare because she has good breeding and good conformation and if you put her to a good stallion you will always be able to sell the foal if its half decent.

I'm not entirely sure but it may be a different thing in dogs because they are differently wired - genetically they are animals that hunt in packs so aggression is never far away, whereas horses are much less aggressive to other creatures as they are vegitarian?
 
[ QUOTE ]
I posted about a problem mare recently which I would like to buy, it reared and had behavioural issues, which I doubt were generic but rather environment. Even so, if I bought her (which now seems unlikely due to a silly price being asked) I doubt I would breed from her as I just could not see me having a good chance of getting something to work with. I would breed from my own mare though. But a lot of people would breed from the first mare because she has good breeding and good conformation and if you put her to a good stallion you will always be able to sell the foal if its half decent.

I'm not entirely sure but it may be a different thing in dogs because they are differently wired - genetically they are animals that hunt in packs so aggression is never far away, whereas horses are much less aggressive to other creatures as they are vegitarian?

[/ QUOTE ]


Aren't horses herbivores?
confused.gif

I agree with the OP, there should be more selective breeding going on. Not just breed from it cause you can
frown.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Yes that is Pudding - my british blue moody girl. She will rule the world one day - so she tells me!

[/ QUOTE ]

Off topic but I love that description of your cat, makes me feel a cat said it (no insult to Pudding's language skills intended).

grin.gif
 
i think there are individual circumstances where horses with behavioural problems (e.g. buckers, rearers) are bred from and throw some nice foals. my friend has one such mare- she's a super mum and her offspring have none of her traits. having said that...i wouldn't advocate it being a definite option for all horses- would have to take it on an individual basis
smile.gif
 
I think the simplest answer is that some people just don't put enough thought into breeding. I'm sure lots of people just don't realise temperament/soundness issues are, more often than not, hereditary, or perhaps they do, but want to make a bit of dosh back from their unsuitable/unsound mares...
 
Its sheer ignorance and stupidity.
I have a mare I bought as a 3yr old, she was sourced by my uncle in Ireland and I have dealt with her every single day of her life. I have gone through the time, trouble and expense of having her graded with SHB(GB) because IMO she is a fine example of a good quality horse, not a world beater, but as Henryhorn says of her horses 'quality, sound and capable of competition for your average rider'. She has competed BE,BSJA and done unaff dressage to Elementary and is currently teaching my OH to ride.
Why did I get her graded?
It seems pointless because the vast majority of stallion owners actually don't care about the mares their horses cover and in fact some actually charge more for graded mares (on the basis that the foal will be worth more) surely this should be an incentive to only breed from quality or proven stock if managed correctly.
The answer I think lies with the studs, stallions should be licensed and stallion owners should have an incentive to only cover quality mares.
Slightly off topic, but I do think that it is also a symptom of a more wealthy society years ago only wealthy people could afford to breed.
 
Some people do not think their actions through - maybe ignorance or stupidity that leads them to think traits will not be passed on.

I bred from my mare who is an absolute cracking jumping pony, shes not touched a pole in years and jumps 1.20m courses with ease (shes 13.1h), having said that she is bloody difficult on the flat, but every part of her body screams that it was taught and not in her nature as shes such a gentle soul to handle. Her daughter shows absolutly no sign of the difficult traits, but has every one of her nice points.
 
I have replied to this on the other thread, but here it goes.

First of all, if I was breeding for myself (not intending to sell the foal), and I managed to get on with the temperament of the mare (which would be too hot to handle for too many people) and she has no other bad genetical traits, I think it should be fine??? Especially if you find stallions that better the mare which could lead to a calmer temperament in the foal.

I know you are a mum - so you want the safest pony for your child. But let's say, your child becomes a kick-ass rider with the potential to join the British Olympic Team... your child (by that time he/she won't be a child anymore) will no longer be wanting to ride the riding school plodder, but the type of horses that can actually perform... these horses are more likely to be the ones that love to show-off their paces or jump the highest... the ones that will tend to be more difficult.

If the whole world bred for temperament and rideability alone, we wouldn't have the top performing, Olympic horses.

Also, we already have a bit of control as most colts get gelded, and the stallions that are left are meant to be the "better" horses. Doing that with mares, too, would prove too much! It would create a severe inbreeding problem. One thing people forget is, there wouldn't be too many horses around anymore, prices would shoot through the roof, you and I would not be able to have a horse... and blooming heck - some breeds may even die out.

To emphasise the inbreeding problem, let's put it into human terms. We all know how seriously bad it is for humans to be inbred - not just in social terms, but in terms of health... even in terms of "looks", I guess. We've seen enough documentaries of inbred people and how they seem to have gone backward in the evolution process!?

On the other hand, I have seen quite a few (!!!) people whose parents looked less than ideal (very low on conformation, tbh - I would definately not have bred from them
wink.gif
) but who were very different genetically. Their offspring, however, looked like a model (perfect conformation).

Also, do you and your husband have the perfect temperament and the perfect conformation (looks!)? And if that wasn't the case, would you think your child was absolutely useless and wasn't able to learn to be different from his/her parents? I mean, have you seen the film Gattaca?? Why should it be different for horses?
 
tasel-interesting last comment- I don't believe any but good specimens should be bred in any species-be it human, equine, canine etc.
And there are many many good horses out there, in case you haven't noticed the market is oversupplied, from crap horses being produced.
you don't have to sterilise mares, just stop breeding the unrideable of poorly put together or plain bad tempered ones!
 
[ QUOTE ]
If the whole world bred for temperament and rideability alone, we wouldn't have the top performing, Olympic horses.

Also, we already have a bit of control as most colts get gelded, and the stallions that are left are meant to be the "better" horses. Doing that with mares, too, would prove too much! It would create a severe inbreeding problem. One thing people forget is, there wouldn't be too many horses around anymore, prices would shoot through the roof, you and I would not be able to have a horse... and blooming heck - some breeds may even die out.

To emphasise the inbreeding problem, let's put it into human terms. We all know how seriously bad it is for humans to be inbred - not just in social terms, but in terms of health... even in terms of "looks", I guess. We've seen enough documentaries of inbred people and how they seem to have gone backward in the evolution process!?

On the other hand, I have seen quite a few (!!!) people whose parents looked less than ideal (very low on conformation, tbh - I would definately not have bred from them
wink.gif
) but who were very different genetically. Their offspring, however, looked like a model (perfect conformation).


[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree. Breeding is an inexact science. You get things like "nicks" and throwbacks which can throw the whole thing up into the air. Some female lines have a trait of letting the stallion imprint on them more than others (the ideal "blank canvas"). Some male lines do the same.

Genetic faults in humans are often there for a reason. Like sickle cell anemia protects against malaria and the cystic fibrosis allele is thought to give some protection against typhoid. The trouble comes when you get two inherited positive genes in the same person. Obviously in horses, the breeding and therefore the genetics are not quite so random, because humans control mostly what is bred, but its likely that concentrating on particular desireable traits will throw up unexpected faults and yes, could lead to inbreeding. Its often the unpredictability of breeding that throws up something good. And we need quirky horses with temperament issues to a certain extent because they often make the best competition horses - it gives them that little bit extra. eg Shutterfly, Animo, etc..

Also a lot of these temperamental problems are only problems in the wrong hands, or created by bad handling or mismanagement. The mare I was referring to is I think a nice horse kept in the wrong environment. I love riding horses that are athletic and energetic and keen like that, but she would terrify someone less experienced (or perhaps with more imagination!).
 
No, that is a common belief, used by many to offset temperment issues- oh, it means he is a world beater cos he's quirky.
There's 'quirky' and loopy. There must be a balance between temperment, performance, conformation, with none being bad, all at least average.
There is such huge performance variety (I think some are either deliberately or not so assuming that those of us who would only breed good horses are all breeding the same lines/for a certain dsicipline) hacking, driving, showing, show jumping. So plese don't argue that breeding unrideable mares is going to 'add' to the gene pool as it's not.
 
[ QUOTE ]
No, that is a common belief, used by many to offset temperment issues- oh, it means he is a world beater cos he's quirky.
There's 'quirky' and loopy. There must be a balance between temperment, performance, conformation, with none being bad, all at least average.
There is such huge performance variety (I think some are either deliberately or not so assuming that those of us who would only breed good horses are all breeding the same lines/for a certain dsicipline) hacking, driving, showing, show jumping. So plese don't argue that breeding unrideable mares is going to 'add' to the gene pool as it's not.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is exactly my point, as a realist, there is very little chance of me or my offspring being world class riders (although I do have family members who have jumped for GB) and I would not dream of trying to produce a horse of olympic or world cup calibre, it would be a best pointless and at worst futile. My point is that breeding is best left to the experts and the people who understand so much more than us.
Breeding from an average horse with a good temperament is just as likely to breed you a top class foal, as breeding from superb bloodlines is likely to breed you a duffer i.e the chance of picking the lottery numbers is a more exact science!
 
[ QUOTE ]
tasel-interesting last comment- I don't believe any but good specimens should be bred in any species-be it human, equine, canine etc.
And there are many many good horses out there, in case you haven't noticed the market is oversupplied, from crap horses being produced.
you don't have to sterilise mares, just stop breeding the unrideable of poorly put together or plain bad tempered ones!

[/ QUOTE ]


Well, out of all the things that you mention above... I haven't seen "human specimens" being bred properly, really, and this is considered unethical by many. Do you think if we bred the human race (a bit of a Third Reich idea
shocked.gif
...), we would have calm and controlled Oxbridge graduates that look like supermodels with the ability to dance or at the very least run the marathon?? I think... NOT.

What you have to understand is - as the poster above mentions - breeding is a very inexact science. DNA carries too much information... it's a bit like having a thousand marbles of different colours and mixing this with another thousand random marbles. Then, take a thousand marbles out. You will never really know what combination you'll get. It is just that in DNA terms... it's a lot more than a thousand marbles. Personally, I think there is an even a deeper layer underneath it which I would call "gene correlation"... where certain traits might come with certain vices and are not purely random - this would explain how the most talented horses also happen to be the most difficult and nearly unrideable ones.

Even if you have the horses with the best temperament and breed them, you can't be sure what the outcome will be.... there may have been hidden aggressive genes in there, and you get an aggressive horse.

I agree not breeding any mare that is poorly - it wouldn't be good for the mare - but taking mares out of the gene pool just because they don't behave (given there is no other health issue) would lessen the diversity of the gene pool which would give us less good horses, I think. To be honest... there are more mares misbehaving because the riders/handlers are not good enough to ride/handle them rather than just because they were "bred" to be that way.

Yes, I have looked at the market out there, and no, I don't agree - there may be an oversupply if you are just looking for ANY horse... but it took me a while to find a horse like mine... she has eccentricities but is extremely intelligent (some say too intelligent... and I have to agree, handling/riding her requires more concentration than any degree I have done so far) and talented. I do think there is a link between the talent and the hot-headedness...

As said, Shutterfly, etc. would not exist if we solely bred for temperament. Different people with different abilities need different horses... it is not a case of one size fits all!!!
 
I wanted to breed from my unridable mare because after spending all my money on buying her, I thought my only hope of getting another sports horse of the same quality was to make it myself.

There was always a small risk that a foal would have had her behavioral issue (random bolting), but overall her temperament is cracking and I was and still am, even though its irrelevant now, of the opinion that she'd breed a normal foal. I've always been more concerned about her passing on her less-than perfect foot conformation and problems, than hereditary bolting.

Anyway, I had unexpected help funding my next horse so I no longer needed to get it the risky, long-winded breeding way, which is a preferable situation. There are too many what if's to let my lame unsafe mare be a full time brood mare, but I would have took a chance on her for myself if it had been my only way of replacing my riding horse.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Yes that is Pudding - my british blue moody girl. She will rule the world one day - so she tells me!

[/ QUOTE ]

she is tremendous! noticed her before but didn't realise it was a real pic!
shocked.gif
 
Now I see why we have the Jamie Grey's with people stupid enough to believe some of this stuff posted about breeding whatever has ovaries.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top