Ask the Expert: Dr Catherine Dunnett with Keyflow®
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KeyflowUK
Well-Known Member
Hi there, this is a tricky one as your mare cant be exercised bless her.
You are doing the right thing to strip graze her, as you are more in control of how much grass she has access to. However, she is really on very little feed from what you have told me and so it must be the grass that is keeping the weight on. A question for you to ask yourself when she colicd on the restricted diet did you replace the grass for forage? As this switch in diet may have been partially responsible. Have you ever condition scored her? This would be worth doing and you can find the Henke system herehttp://www.wikihow.com/Condition-Score-a-Horse
In terms of improving her ration, a balancer or a vitamin and mineral supplement would be beneficial in terms of ensuring all of the vitamin and mineral requirements are met and the latter would probably be better given her weight issues. In terms of forage, I would go for hay over haylage on this occasion and perhaps soak it to leach out some of the sugars. A later cut more mature hay will be less digestible and deliver fewer calories.
To be honest being pragmatic about the situation, as your mare is 20-25 and is not ridden, if her health is stable and you dont allow her to put on any further weight then it may be better to accept that she is not going to be her ideal bodyweight without you having to severely restrict her intake, which may not be in her best interest. Just be careful with the access to grass in the context of her possible Cushings re laminitis.
Hope this has helped a little
- CD
If you would like to try the Keyflow feeds I would suggest Mark Todd Perfect Balance which is low in starch and sugar- http://keyflowfeeds.com/product/mark-todd-perfect-balance/ If you would like any more help or advice email advice@keyflowfeeds.com
MudMudGloriousMud
Well-Known Member
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply!
I have thought along the same lines as you, that if she is happy and healthy then why try to get her to and "ideal" weight. The vets disagree with me and are constantly telling me to diet her. My Farrier keeps a close eye on her feet and has nipped several footy issues in the bud, so I'm happy to go on the way we are, and so is she I think.
We do go for "walkies" which she enjoys, so I really should put the effort in to taking her more often.
Quote :- A question for you to ask yourself – when she colic’d on the restricted diet did you replace the grass for forage? As this switch in diet may have been partially responsible. Have you ever condition scored her? This would be worth doing and you can find the Henke system herehttp://www.wikihow.com/Condition-Score-a-Horse
I kept her on grass - restricted to a bare patch, and was soaking her hay when she colic'd, I think it was literally the lack of fibre/movement through her gut that made her ill
I (and my vets) have condition scored her - she is a 6/5 as her neck, shoulders and tailhead are huge, with her barrel being very well covered, bless her cotton socks!
Thanks again for your time - I have added a vit&min supplement to her diet as you suggested.
I have thought along the same lines as you, that if she is happy and healthy then why try to get her to and "ideal" weight. The vets disagree with me and are constantly telling me to diet her. My Farrier keeps a close eye on her feet and has nipped several footy issues in the bud, so I'm happy to go on the way we are, and so is she I think.
We do go for "walkies" which she enjoys, so I really should put the effort in to taking her more often.
Quote :- A question for you to ask yourself – when she colic’d on the restricted diet did you replace the grass for forage? As this switch in diet may have been partially responsible. Have you ever condition scored her? This would be worth doing and you can find the Henke system herehttp://www.wikihow.com/Condition-Score-a-Horse
I kept her on grass - restricted to a bare patch, and was soaking her hay when she colic'd, I think it was literally the lack of fibre/movement through her gut that made her ill
I (and my vets) have condition scored her - she is a 6/5 as her neck, shoulders and tailhead are huge, with her barrel being very well covered, bless her cotton socks!
Thanks again for your time - I have added a vit&min supplement to her diet as you suggested.
KeyflowUK
Well-Known Member
jojo5
Well-Known Member
Hi, I would like some nutritional advice for my 24 year old cob. He recently spent some time in horsepital - he had a colic which was treated at our yard, he seemed fine for the next two days but then became very uncomfortable after his tea and ended up having a large amount of gastric fluid tubed from his stomach. The vet who attended decided he should be admitted - it is a fairly long drive, and by the time we arrived he appeared to be fine though somewhat dehydrated (could not get him near the scanner, towed us round the yard!). For the next few days he was re-hydrated, and bloods taken, scan, gastroscopy etc, all with nothing to see except for some ulcers which the vet thought may have been caused by the tubing. Long story short, he is now back at home - I have cut his breakfast and tea down drastically so now only receiving a sprinkle of mix, half a scoop chaff, carrots/parsnip and lots of water. He has around 10kg of haylage (dry) in two nets - one single with small holes, the other double netted to allow for all night grazing. He is in at night and out on fairly sparse grass from 7 to 4. My question is, if he is going to go down to almost all forage like this, which the vet has suggested, does he need a balancer/pre/pro biotic to support him at his age? He is otherwise a good doer and a gannet, and, I am told, does not look his age! So, more hay? Extra supplements? Readigrass? Thanks very much
KeyflowUK
Well-Known Member
Hi There,
Sorry to hear that you chap has had colic, but hopefully he is now on the mend. A high forage diet is a good idea for any horse that is only doing a small amount of work especially if they keep the weight on well and have a healthy appetite. Haylage is also a good choice as it tends to be cleaner than home grown hay, as the fermentation process inhibits mould growth. However, a diet of haylage and sparse grazing alone is unlikely to meet all of the requirements for vitamins and minerals and the protein quality may not be high enough to provide the optimum intake of key amino acids.
I do suggest that you feed a good quality balancer in place of the current mix, alongside your haylage to ensure addition of some quality protein and a concentrated source of vitamins and minerals. The balancer can be fed on its own, or together with a small amount of chaff (alfalfa or grass based). My feeling is that a pre and or probiotic at this time would be helpful to manage the change in diet and to also ensure that the hindgut microbial population and environment is settled following the bout of colic. Look out for ingredients such as live yeast Saccaromyces Cerevisiae or mannanoligosacharide in any product that you chose to use.
Hope this helps Dr D
If you want to try the Keyflow range I suggest Mark Todd Perfect Balance- http://keyflowfeeds.com/product/mark-todd-perfect-balance/ -as this provides steam extruded ingredients including full fat soya, full fat linseed and also contains mannanoligosacharide a prebiotic that supports a healthy balance of hindgut microflora
dianchi
Well-Known Member
Hi,
I am constantly battling with my horses weight, all medical reasoning has been eliminated, she is just not a horse that likes to eat up!
She has a tendancy to tie up, and is barefoot so low starch and low sugars are a must in her diet.
Currently she is fed 3.5kg Calm and Condition, 600gm of Micronised Linseed, 1kg of ERS pellets, Pro Balance feed supplement and MSM powder. (split over 3 feeds)
She is a fussy eater and does not like oil in her feed or Alfalfa.
She is worked 5 days a week, is 19yo TB 15.3 mare and currently is weighing 489kg on a weight tape. Competes at SJ and Elem Dressage through the winter. Plays Horseball all of the summer.
Are there any additions that you would suggest for additional calories in her feed?
I am constantly battling with my horses weight, all medical reasoning has been eliminated, she is just not a horse that likes to eat up!
She has a tendancy to tie up, and is barefoot so low starch and low sugars are a must in her diet.
Currently she is fed 3.5kg Calm and Condition, 600gm of Micronised Linseed, 1kg of ERS pellets, Pro Balance feed supplement and MSM powder. (split over 3 feeds)
She is a fussy eater and does not like oil in her feed or Alfalfa.
She is worked 5 days a week, is 19yo TB 15.3 mare and currently is weighing 489kg on a weight tape. Competes at SJ and Elem Dressage through the winter. Plays Horseball all of the summer.
Are there any additions that you would suggest for additional calories in her feed?
Maz55
Well-Known Member
I would like to know what your thoughts are on feeding pre/probiotics? Are they really necessary? I feed my horse:
Topspec topchop lite
global herbs globalvite vitamin supplement
chlorella
milk thistle
MSM
Is it necessary to add a pro/prebiotic? If so, is there a vitamin supplement that you could recommend that has it in it/can you recommend a pre/probiotic?
Thank you.
Topspec topchop lite
global herbs globalvite vitamin supplement
chlorella
milk thistle
MSM
Is it necessary to add a pro/prebiotic? If so, is there a vitamin supplement that you could recommend that has it in it/can you recommend a pre/probiotic?
Thank you.
jojo5
Well-Known Member
Hi Dr D, thanks very much for your reply. Does the Keyflow product you mention contain the concentrated vita and mins you suggest? I forgot to mention his vital stats (14.3, now measuring 503 kg on the weigh tape which is about 25-30 kg less than he would normally be at this time of year. He does already have soya oil in his tea, and glucosamine. I have just bought a new grass based chaff. Thanks again.
KeyflowUK
Well-Known Member
Hi There
Yes the Mark Todd Perfect Balance contains a full range of vitamins and minerals at a concentrated level that allows it to be fed at the low level recommended rate of 100g per 100kg of bodyweight - so 500g per day for your chap. Perfect Balance is also wet steam extruded which significantly increases digestibility and nutrient availability in the small intestine.
Hope that helps Dr D
KeyflowUK
Well-Known Member
Hi There,
Pre and probiotics are beneficial in certain circumstances and for me these would be horses that have a history of digestive disturbance including colic or loose droppings, horses that are under considerable dietary stress such as race or competition horses fed high cereal containing diets, horses that have a failure to thrive where no other health issue has been identified.
In terms of what to look for my probiotic of choice would be a live yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae and prebiotics to look out for are FOS fructooligosaccharides or MOS mannanoligosaccharides. A key question to ask any manufacturer would be what their level of inclusion is.
Hope this helps Dr D
For your information Keyflows Mark Todd Perfect Balance contains MOS and Mark Todd Stay Cool, Mark Todd Maestro, Whitaker Bros Jumpmix and Jumpmix Jnr all contain both a MOS and Protexin live yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) at high inclusion rates. For further advice please contact advice@keyflowfeeds.com
Maz55
Well-Known Member
thank you Dr D
Neo_kat26
New User
Hi Catherine, my 18 year old TB recently came in from the field with a really bad cut in his leg that went to the joint. He was rushed to an equine hospital,hadthe wound flushed under anaesthetic and has spent two weeks there. He came home on Tuesday and is on box rest. I have noticed that during all this he has lost weight and his ribs are now visible even through his winter coat. I have been told that its probably did to the stress. I've now got to balance his food so that he is putting on weight but hasn't got too much energy. I have started him on Dodson and horrells alfalfa high oil and his usual leisure mix. He has access to hay throughout the day. Does this sound like the right thing to do? Your advice would be greatly appreciated 
KeyflowUK
Well-Known Member
Hi There
You dont say whether your horse is stabled or at grass or a combination. The area that I would focus on to begin with is the quality and digestibility of your forage, as this can have a big impact on maintaining weight. You really need to try and find a hay or haylage that is better than average, an early cut that is not too fibrous and if you are able to perhaps acquire an analysis of the hay or haylage from the merchant this is a good start. In this scenario, good forage really does need to be fed ad libitum, to the extent that a little bit is being left at each sitting. You dont mention how much forage you are feeding so this could be an issue? Even if your horse is at grass 24/7 then I would still be inclined to offer forage twice a day. The feeds you have chosen are suitable and I presume that you are mixing two brands for palatability reasons. This ok as both are relatively low in starch but you may want to consider some additional vitamin E supplementation from the tying up perspective.
I am assuming that you have eliminated all other veterinary contributors to your mares failure to thrive including: parasites, poor dentition, gastric ulcers, malabsorption, or any underlying inflammation within the gut. If any of these are present then they would need to be treated by your vet first and would have impacted on your mares ability to maintain condition. Otherwise, once you have got the forage intake optimised you could introduce a small 4th feed and see if this improves the situation.
Hope this helps Dr D
There arent any feeds within the Keyflow range that would be more suitable than those you are currently using, although some Key 3 Omega Oil would be a worthwhile addition but as you say your mare does not like added oil, I would be reluctant to add it as it may reduce the overall intake of the diet which could be counterproductive. Have a look here http://keyflowfeeds.com/product/key-3/
KeyflowUK
Well-Known Member
Hi Catherine, my 18 year old TB recently came in from the field with a really bad cut in his leg that went to the joint. He was rushed to an equine hospital,hadthe wound flushed under anaesthetic and has spent two weeks there. He came home on Tuesday and is on box rest. I have noticed that during all this he has lost weight and his ribs are now visible even through his winter coat. I have been told that its probably did to the stress. I've now got to balance his food so that he is putting on weight but hasn't got too much energy. I have started him on Dodson and horrells alfalfa high oil and his usual leisure mix. He has access to hay throughout the day. Does this sound like the right thing to do? Your advice would be greatly appreciated
Hi There
Always a challenge weight gain without excitability! Good forage is again the key and plenty of it through the day. An alfalfa chaff of some kind as you mention is a good addition and it extends the forage you can feed about 1kg of this per day. The next addition I suggest needs to be a balancer as this will provide a concentrated and very digestible source of nutrients, vitamins and minerals and amino acids, which is important when you seek to keep concentrate levels low. I would then use a high oil top dress feed like micronized linseed (500g per day) or rice bran (upto 1kg per day) to provide extra calories but without the high levels of starch that traditional mixes can bring.
Hope this helps Dr D
If you want to try the Keyflow range then I suggest Mark Todd Perfect balance a fully steam extruded balancer providing concentrated vitamins and minerals, quality protein and other highly digestible ingredients. Steam extruded Key Plus (rice bran) would also be an alternative option to micronized linseed. Have a look here: http://keyflowfeeds.com/product/mark-todd-perfect-balance/ and here http://keyflowfeeds.com/product/keyflow-key-plus/
dianchi
Well-Known Member
She is out during the day and in at night, she is fed good quality adlib hay and there is always some in the stable.
She has no vet issues- extensively checked.
She is barely eating the three feeds she is currently on so 4th is really not an option.
I am feeding the ERS as w are at the toplimit of calm and condition and this was an extra calorie feed recommended to me.
So you don't have any other suggestions? Its very frustrating as an owner so any professional input would be appreciated.
KeyflowUK
Well-Known Member
Well, I would certainly have your hay analysed to ensure it has a good feed value, as just because it looks nice and smells nice it doesnt always follow. This would be my number one piece of advice as if it has a % protein of less than 7.5% you probably need to look for a different batch. You can make a huge difference to condition by feeding better forage perhaps consider a good quality haylage with a high feed value? You could send your hay to a laboratory called Eurofins for a basic nutritional profile, or if you PM Keyflow, I can point you in the right direction.
The other element that may be an issue is that your low starch feed, may actually be causing the appetite issue, as this does happen, especially if the horse in question is doing a reasonable amount of work. The trouble is to achieve a very low starch content you sometimes have to use bi product ingredients and even straw based ingredients in combination with oil, which some horses just dont fancy. It may be worth introducing a slightly higher starch feed to try and achieve better palatability (perhaps around 18-20%), which should be ok as long as your meal sizes are small and frequent.
I hope this helps a bit, but suggest that if you need more info you give Keyflow a call on 01672 519000 and leave your number and Ill call you back.
Dr D
TwyfordM
Well-Known Member
Hi, i have a welsh sec a who struggles to maintain her weight year round. She's currently on fastfibre with milk thistle due to liver enzymes being found to be too high in blood tests although no investigations were carried out as she's fine in herself. She has suffered from both impaction and spasmodic colics in the past, cant have too much sugar as is laminitis prone and it blows her brain .. Nightmare basically!
The fastfibre worked quite well over the summer and she stayed a good weight but she's started to drop weight now despite being on double the summer amount of feed and adlib good quality hay.
She's rugged up and stabled overnight and only in very light work (worked everyday in summer)
Any ideas on what i could feed that will maintain her weight but wont tip the balance of her various health issues?
Thankyou
The fastfibre worked quite well over the summer and she stayed a good weight but she's started to drop weight now despite being on double the summer amount of feed and adlib good quality hay.
She's rugged up and stabled overnight and only in very light work (worked everyday in summer)
Any ideas on what i could feed that will maintain her weight but wont tip the balance of her various health issues?
Thankyou
KeyflowUK
Well-Known Member
Hi, i have a welsh sec a who struggles to maintain her weight year round. She's currently on fastfibre with milk thistle due to liver enzymes being found to be too high in blood tests although no investigations were carried out as she's fine in herself. She has suffered from both impaction and spasmodic colics in the past, cant have too much sugar as is laminitis prone and it blows her brain .. Nightmare basically!
The fastfibre worked quite well over the summer and she stayed a good weight but she's started to drop weight now despite being on double the summer amount of feed and adlib good quality hay.
She's rugged up and stabled overnight and only in very light work (worked everyday in summer)
Any ideas on what i could feed that will maintain her weight but wont tip the balance of her various health issues?
Thankyou
Hi there,
I think that you need to rule out all possible health issues first, as you say that you are feeding twice the amount that you fed in the summer to limited effect (although you dont say how much you are feeding). Ensure that there is not an ongoing parasite issue, especially tapeworm as these can have a profound effect on ability to maintain condition. I would liaise with your vet and perhaps having teeth checked and a blood test to screen for any underlying health problems.
It could be that the feed value of your hay is not as good as you think it is, unless you have had this confirmed through analysis. If I assume that all is well health wise, an alternative ration for your pony that should help with condition keeping the low starch and sugar low follows: Alfalfa chaff (0.5kg), a good quality balancer to provide a concentrated source of quality protein and vitamins and minerals. You could also add some unmolassed sugar beet to this and or micronized linseed to add some extra calories. I would be more able to give you an idea on quantities if I knew how much you were feeding currently.
Hope this helps Dr D
Within the Keyflow range, we suggest Mark Todd Perfect Balance fed at a level of 100g per 100kgs of bodyweight per day. This offers fully steam extruded ingredients for improved digestibility and a full range of vitamins and minerals. Have a look here: http://keyflowfeeds.com/product/mark-todd-perfect-balance/
