Asking for that little bit more roundness?

[Pigeon]

So my horse will go nicely round in a longer frame, but as soon as I ask him to be a bit more energetic and up-together, we tend to lose it out the front. He is very fit, topline and neck muscles all looking good at the moment, I'm certain he can physically cope with a degree of collection, I think it's more of a mental or rider issue. He's quite lazy and strong - I think as I get him more off the leg it will improve, but has anyone found any methods that helped them?

What's more annoying is we had finally cracked it earlier this year, and for various reasons he had some time off, and when he came back it was like starting all over again :rolleyes3:

We've booked some lessons but can only realistically do one every fortnight, so I was just wondering if anyone had any tips, or has been in a similar situation

 

[be positive]

Lazy and strong is often easier than tense and sharp in these situations, you can be much more demanding without having to worry about them getting tense and losing the relaxation or softness, try and get him more reactive to your aids increase the amount of transitions you do both in and out of a pace as well as within it, make use of direct transitions from halt to trot walk to canter and back again.
Leg yield into an upward transition is useful to engage them more as well as help the rider to keep a good connection through the transition, spirals in and out with an upward transition are good and dont forget polework can make things more interesting as well as help the steps become more energetic.

 

[Pigeon]

Great thanks

He's easy to p*ss off unfortunately, I don't think he'll actually do anything though, should I just push through the resistance?

 

[be positive]

If they really find something difficult I tend to touch on it then go and work on something else before they get too resistant, then go back to it, this is where poles are useful if they like doing them you can play with poles so they dont realise they are working harder, it is deciding whether they find something hard due to physical restraints, not ready or just not quiet understanding that can be the hardest part of training any horse, I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt until I know they actually can do it and work on improving what they can do comfortably and just keep going back to the difficult parts until they do find it easier, which does come over time.

My theory is to get their strengths as good as possible and build up the weaker aspects gradually, as they get stronger it does even out and aiming for 10s for the easy bits means the confidence can grow so overall they improve.

 

[Pigeon]

If they really find something difficult I tend to touch on it then go and work on something else before they get too resistant, then go back to it, this is where poles are useful if they like doing them you can play with poles so they dont realise they are working harder, it is deciding whether they find something hard due to physical restraints, not ready or just not quiet understanding that can be the hardest part of training any horse, I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt until I know they actually can do it and work on improving what they can do comfortably and just keep going back to the difficult parts until they do find it easier, which does come over time.

My theory is to get their strengths as good as possible and build up the weaker aspects gradually, as they get stronger it does even out and aiming for 10s for the easy bits means the confidence can grow so overall they improve.

I think it's more him not quite understanding what I'm asking, but like I said he is very lazy, and typically will put in minimum effort, so could just be that. I'm upping his feed to give him a bit more energy, hopefully so it won't all seem like such an effort for him!

Thanks, will definitely do some pole work

 

[Pigeon]

I have a lesson on thurs so will see if we can do some poles

 

[Hoof_Prints]

I ride a couple of horses that can get resistant, lazy and strong. I have taught them to rein back, and when they decide they don't want to put the effort in to moving forwards, I make them go backwards- it just seems to shift them up a gear and they then move forwards much better! I sometimes find that asking for lateral movements can make them more resistant when they are in that mood, so I ask for rein back then ask for lateral movements after to get them moving.

 

[ridefast]

My lazy on the forehand cob thing improves if I do some shoulder ins both reins for a while and then ask for an energetic trot forward, she jumps up into trot and carries herself nicely without me having to do anything to her front end. Also helps doing counter bend, turn on haunches, we've attempted roll backs which she finds fun (western move) and just any sort of bending games, gymkhana games, to get her bending and flexing and using her back end a bit more. Reversing a few steps then asking for trot helps too.

 

[Pigeon]

Thanks I will definitely give it a go

I can get him light in the hands or I can get him forwards, just struggling to do both lol

 

[LynH]

My horse sounds very similar to yours, in my last lesson we focused on getting her light in my hands and more forwards. We did lots of circles and loops in walk to get her using her inside hind. As they tend to slow through a turn or corner we focused on keeping the same speed and activity through lots of different turns which pushed her into the bridle making her lighter in my hand. We also worked on asking her for "one mile an hour more" all the time she wasn't working into a correct contact so the focus was on pushing her forward into a shape rather than holding or pulling her into a better frame. By making sure I always ask for "one mile an hour more" than she is offering I was determining the pace and activity rather than her which helped get her more forward thinking. I have a tendency to have my reins quite long as she has a thrombosis in her jugular vein but once I got the confidence to have much shorter reins (without her choking from the thrombo) but with the same amount of weight in them as I had when they were longer, all I had to do was put my leg on to get her lighter in my hand. Shoulder in on a circle also helps as does counter flexing and I do lots of transitions rather than just trotting or cantering round and round.

 

[ridefast]

If you're on facebook, join the sylvia loch classical riding club group on there, lots of nice people with good advice

 

[_GG_]

Can you answer a few questions for me before I respond properly?

1/ Does he understand the aids for being more forward and respond when you ask?
2/ Does he understand the aids for more roundness and respond when you ask?
3/ Is it just that he backs off when you ask for both at the same time?
4/ Does he respond well to learning new movements?
5/ If you were to teach a new movement to him now that he has not already started, what would it be and how would you go about doing it. Doesn't need to be a detailed answer, just a gloss over

Hope you don't mind me asking and you can answer by PM if you want...but I have an inkling I may know a way forward but don't want to advise without knowing a bit more

 

[Pigeon]

PM'd you

Thanks, will add Sylvia Loch

All good advice, will try out next schooling sesh! Someone has also advised trying a plastic bit, do you think this might help? He's in a BD legal Myler at the moment.

 

[_GG_]

PM'd you

Thanks, will add Sylvia Loch

All good advice, will try out next schooling sesh! Someone has also advised trying a plastic bit, do you think this might help? He's in a BD legal Myler at the moment.

I wouldn't personally change the bit if he is happy with what you have him in. The way I see it, is if you ask for more with a new bit, he may associate the tension with the contact and that is not something I would ever want. Usual bit though and he's more likely to associate the tension with you just asking him for more.

I have PM'd you back, so his association shouldn't be an issue anyway as you'll hopefully understand when you've had chance to read it

 

[Blythe Spirit]

I wouldn't personally change the bit if he is happy with what you have him in. The way I see it, is if you ask for more with a new bit, he may associate the tension with the contact and that is not something I would ever want. Usual bit though and he's more likely to associate the tension with you just asking him for more.

I have PM'd you back, so his association shouldn't be an issue anyway as you'll hopefully understand when you've had chance to read it

Totally understand you PM'ing but I would have been interested to know what you thought This is a problem I had about 3 months ago and I think I have worked through it now but just in general I was interested to know your take as it is common problem faced by many horse and rider combinations. I know that the solution will be a bit different from every horse and rider but...

 

[_GG_]

Totally understand you PM'ing but I would have been interested to know what you thought This is a problem I had about 3 months ago and I think I have worked through it now but just in general I was interested to know your take as it is common problem faced by many horse and rider combinations. I know that the solution will be a bit different from every horse and rider but...

Well, Pigeon PM'd me rather than post on here so I PM'd back, lol. I shall re-jig the answer I sent her later and post it without the specific references though

 

[Blythe Spirit]

Well, Pigeon PM'd me rather than post on here so I PM'd back, lol. I shall re-jig the answer I sent her later and post it without the specific references though

That would be great thanks - as I say I totally understand OP and you taking this off line, I was just curious as to your advice as you often give what i think is good sound advice.

 

[_GG_]

That would be great thanks - as I say I totally understand OP and you taking this off line, I was just curious as to your advice as you often give what i think is good sound advice.

Thank you....and who needs to get work done? I may as well do it now. I'll just post generally rather than edit what I said to Pigeon as it is for her to make that public if she wants to.

But, basically speaking, we are the ones with brains. We forget this all too easily when training horses. We get all caught up in what we should be doing that we forget how clever we can be if we use our brains. Horses are not so fortunate. Yes, they can be clever and tricky, but they can also have the wool pulled over their eye very easily and we can take advantage of that.

So, lets use roundness as an example as it is what I think you were working through as well. First off, this is just my experience and a training mind set that I use. It is not to say that any of the things I speak of should be done as different people/horses will do different things in different ways, but it is the mind set of it that I find useful in many different ways.

So, we'll start by the training by numbers thing that I have written about on here before. I don't own it, there are many variations, but I kind of made it up for myself as a kid so as not to ever ask too much of a horse. Put basically, every session has a value of 10. Within that session you make it up with exercises that do not exceed a value of 10. Basic warm up, straightforward movement is zero so the warm up and cool downs not involving any lateral work or extension/collection are zero values. Exercises that the horse is established in like shoulder in, leg yield etc, that it does without any tension are value 1/10. Exercises that are a work in progress but good with only a little tension are 2/10. A little more tension makes an exercise 3/10 and so on. I never go more than 10/10 in any one session so as to make it always enjoyable and never overfacing the horse.

So, when we want to ask for more roundness from a horse we need to ask ourselves the basics. Does it understand the aids for forward movement and respond when asked? Does is understand the aids for roundness and respond when asked? Is it just that when you ask for more roundness, the horse becomes tense and fights against it? If it is, we need to find another way to ask that either doesn't involve tension OR uses the tension to our advantage?

The person that discovers the way to teach any animal a new thing without any tension, especially horses will be a billionaire and I don't think that person exists yet

So, we need to find a way to use the tension to our advantage. Horses learn what we want by responding the way they think they need to when we ask them something new and trying to understand our responses to what they give us. So, they give us what we want, they get rewarded, they are more likely to repeat the response that won the reward. Do it repeatedly and the initial tension goes as the horses understanding becomes established.

Use the tension, but don't make it all about the tension. How to do that? Well...think of the 10/10 plan including a totally new movement being introduced. That new movement will be a 5/10 at least, so you set the session up to just contain 5 x 1/10 exercises so that your horse can work comfortably and in a relaxed manner, thereby being rewarded for most of the session...only challenged by the new movement. Let's say this new movement is a walk pirouette to keep it basic. You choose your method of teaching the horse and you accept that the horse will have some tension as it tries to learn this new movement. This tension in learning the new movement is key. The horse is already learning something new, so we just piggyback the extra roundness on the back of it. Still one load of tension, but a "free" benefit as we teach two things at once without the horse realising it. So, when you have chosen your method of teaching the new movement, you ask the horse to be more round as you come out of it. This doesn't overload the horse with being forced into a frame doing something new, but you keep the tension going long enough that you ask for more roundness for the 3 or 5 strides away from the completed movement. Each and every time you practise the new move, you ask the horse and make sure the horse is as round as you want him for the first 3 or 5 strides after the movement. The horse will be tense as it is part of the new movement and a new way of going that he hasn't previously liked. However, as he becomes more established in the new movement, so he will become more established in the new frame. The horse is already tense, so will associate the tension to the origin, which is the new movement, rather than associate it with you asking for more roundness. Then when the horse gives it to you, you reward it by allowing it forward in a relaxing way. The more established the horse becomes in the new movement, so it becomes more established in the way out of that movement and the tension in both lessens. Eventually, the horse will not be tense in the new frame and you can start to ask them to maintain it for longer until it is just something you can get when you want for as long as you want.

I hope that makes sense. It's basically piggybacking the roundness onto another new movement. Using what is inevitable to your advantage rather than shying away from or trying to avoid it. Tension is a necessary part of training. The addition of extra roundness upon moving away from the new movement is simply seeing the movement as including the strides of extra roundness as part of its completion.

So, with a walk pirouette, you teach the movement to include the extra rounded 3 or 5 strides away from it.

I've probably stopped making any sense now after writing this here and in the PMs to pigeon, but that of course implies that I was making any sense in the first place :wink3:

Hope it does make at least some sort of sense though

 

[Blythe Spirit]

...

I hope that makes sense. It's basically piggybacking the roundness onto another new movement. Using what is inevitable to your advantage rather than shying away from or trying to avoid it. Tension is a necessary part of training. The addition of extra roundness upon moving away from the new movement is simply seeing the movement as including the strides of extra roundness as part of its completion.

So, with a walk pirouette, you teach the movement to include the extra rounded 3 or 5 strides away from it.

I've probably stopped making any sense now after writing this here and in the PMs to pigeon, but that of course implies that I was making any sense in the first place :wink3:

Hope it does make at least some sort of sense though

Oh yes that makes sense, though I get and in my own way use the 1-10 idea (never called it anything but it reflects what I do) I never though of or really used the piggy back idea - though when you school a horse you often find one movement will improve another (leg yield will often set up a neat canter transition for instance or to follow your eg walk piroette can give you lovely walk/canter trans) I think of that as savvy combinations to set the horse up to succeed and show rather than enforce a better way of going. I never thought of tacking two elements together quite as you describe - but I can see it would work psychologically for training certainly.
Very interesting thanks for sharing

 

[_GG_]

Oh yes that makes sense, though I get and in my own way use the 1-10 idea (never called it anything but it reflects what I do) I never though of or really used the piggy back idea - though when you school a horse you often find one movement will improve another (leg yield will often set up a neat canter transition for instance or to follow your eg walk piroette can give you lovely walk/canter trans) I think of that as savvy combinations to set the horse up to succeed and show rather than enforce a better way of going. I never thought of tacking two elements together quite as you describe - but I can see it would work psychologically for training certainly.
Very interesting thanks for sharing

Any time Yep, we all do it, all the time and we mostly don't realise. Sometimes the best solutions are the simple ones and sometimes the simple ones are hidden in plain sight, right under our noses.