Associating saddle with pain

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Cob Life

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I have a mare that I'm bringing back into work after she's had 2-3 years off after misbehaving due to pain cause by an ill fitting saddle.

Saddle now fits correctly and her back has been checked. She's very willing to work and loves her lunging and long reining. But as soon as you go near her with the saddle (don't even put it on) she starts kicking out, trying to bite etc. So clearly she still associates it with pain.

This is something I will slowly work on with her but has anyone got any tips on how to work through this? She will happily lunge in a roller and side reins.

She's a phenomenal jumper and absolutely adores it so would love to be able to get her back to this!
 
Oh bless the poor horse, that must have been some badly fitting saddle!

Take it very very slowly. Where do you generally tack up? In the stable?

I would try multiple different methods, clicker training including target training may work, some advance and retreat, some time just leaving the saddle nearby, on the fence or held by a friend whilst the horse is lunged but very slowly and carefully moving on to the next step only when she is comfortable with the step before.

Given the deep seated issues I might enlist the help of a behaviourist or at least someone very knowledgeable about positive reinforcement / clicker training techniques
 
Wheels said:
Oh bless the poor horse, that must have been some badly fitting saddle!

Take it very very slowly. Where do you generally tack up? In the stable?

I would try multiple different methods, clicker training including target training may work, some advance and retreat, some time just leaving the saddle nearby, on the fence or held by a friend whilst the horse is lunged but very slowly and carefully moving on to the next step only when she is comfortable with the step before.

Given the deep seated issues I might enlist the help of a behaviourist or at least someone very knowledgeable about positive reinforcement / clicker training techniques
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She seems to know which saddle is hers as I can walk right in front of her when she’s tied up with the cobs saddle and she doesn’t bother at all.
I might try just leaving it on the fence while we lunge tomorrow and see how she does.
She’s very intelligent and loves working but she can be a typical mare, if she doesn’t like something she will tell you, but if anyone is going to follow me around the field it will be her despite the fact I’ve been working with her for the least amount of time.
 
How about working her in a saddle pad. Leave the saddle for now. Everything is exactly the same, you place it, girth it etc. Other than the fact you have to be able to ride without stirrups - use a neck strap if you need to. Its soft. It won't hurt. She can work and be praised and learn that saddles don't hurt. We've had a lot of success with similar horses simply by ditching the saddle and teaching them that ridden work is OK. She will still react to a saddle - but if you have a good foundation or "work doesn't hurt" with something she doesn't associate wth hurt it makes the whole process easier.
 
Shay said:
How about working her in a saddle pad. Leave the saddle for now. Everything is exactly the same, you place it, girth it etc. Other than the fact you have to be able to ride without stirrups - use a neck strap if you need to. Its soft. It won't hurt. She can work and be praised and learn that saddles don't hurt. We've had a lot of success with similar horses simply by ditching the saddle and teaching them that ridden work is OK. She will still react to a saddle - but if you have a good foundation or "work doesn't hurt" with something she doesn't associate wth hurt it makes the whole process easier.
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I did consider hoping on bareback for a few strides of walk at the end of lunging but apparently i'd need to do some work standing at the mounting block first as she wouldn't stand (but is that any surprise?)
 
This might be a daft question.. But how did you get a saddle fitted if she won't have one on her back?
 
cobgoblin said:
This might be a daft question.. But how did you get a saddle fitted if she won't have one on her back?
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I honestly don't know! But the owners have assured me they've both had saddles recently refitted as when the first started talking to me about her the first things I flagged that could have caused the issues were back pain and an ill fitting saddle. I did consider ulcers as she could be quite kicky on the ground but that's stopped with confident consistent handling
 
Cob Life said:
I honestly don't know! But the owners have assured me they've both had saddles recently refitted as when the first started talking to me about her the first things I flagged that could have caused the issues were back pain and an ill fitting saddle. I did consider ulcers as she could be quite kicky on the ground but that's stopped with confident consistent handling
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If the saddle was refitted, perhaps it's still the same saddle?... I would wonder if it really fits her, though no one is going to know until it can be put on her back.
.
 
cobgoblin said:
If the saddle was refitted, perhaps it's still the same saddle?... I would wonder if it really fits her, though no one is going to know until it can be put on her back.
.
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Possibly, if I can get it on her I'm no saddler but I can tell if it obviously doesn't fit well
 
Have you tried heavily disguising it with a bright seat saver?.. If you take the stirrups and girth off as well it might look sufficiently different to lay on her back, but they do have an uncanny ability to recognise a particular saddle.
 
cobgoblin said:
Have you tried heavily disguising it with a bright seat saver?.. If you take the stirrups and girth off as well it might look sufficiently different to lay on her back, but they do have an uncanny ability to recognise a particular saddle.
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I'm going to strip everything off and leave the cover on and see if that fools her! I might even try spraying the cover with pet remedy to see if that disguises the smell
 
Why not just get her a saddle that you know will be comfortable? I used to help other people with Balance saddles and I've used them for several project horses of my own. I've seen horses go from kicking and biting when their own saddle was put on to instantly (I mean literally 5 minutes later) standing still and ignoring the saddle when a Balance one was put on. The other systems that are similar are Lavinia Mitchell and to some extent Heather Moffett's treeless and flexi-tree saddles. If the saddle you have is causing her discomfort you will just be making the problem worse by sneaking it on to her.
 
Why dont you start with something like having the saddle close to her whilst you are grooming and fussing over her and then dont put it on and long rein/lunge etc so she knows everytime its out it isnt going on and slowly get it closer to her.
 
soloequestrian said:
Why not just get her a saddle that you know will be comfortable? I used to help other people with Balance saddles and I've used them for several project horses of my own. I've seen horses go from kicking and biting when their own saddle was put on to instantly (I mean literally 5 minutes later) standing still and ignoring the saddle when a Balance one was put on. The other systems that are similar are Lavinia Mitchell and to some extent Heather Moffett's treeless and flexi-tree saddles. If the saddle you have is causing her discomfort you will just be making the problem worse by sneaking it on to her.
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She's not my horse so a new saddle or not isn't my choice
 
If it wasn't my own horse, I'd walk away and find a different loan opportunity. Sorry if that sounds mean, but to try to sort this issue out without being directly responsible for saddle fittings, purchase of saddles, chiro and behavioural experts is a nightmare. From what you say I'd seriously question that saddle has been tried out properly. X
 
^That was exactly what I wanted to say but thought I was being too harsh.

My first question was, if you hadn't SEEN it being fitted, I'd seriously question if it was and/or if it was tried properly.
 
When I posted earlier in this thread I hadn't realised the horse was not yours. The owners need to pay a professional to resolve this issue, it's not your problem to fix.

They also need to get a 2nd opinion on the saddle. I would walk away if I was you!
 
What an awful predicament for you and your horse. I have seen horses previously ridden in ill-fitting saddles, being tacked up with a new, well fitting one - and for a few moments they were in the "ooohh this is going to hurt" camp - but then after a few minutes they settled and realised that this one isn't going to be uncomfortable for them after all.

I realise you have to take the owner's word for it that the saddle fits. Are you able to post any pics of this saddle on the horse for us to take a look at? It might be of some help to you...….
 
I used to offer my Ansur treeless saddle as a diagnostic tool for supposed remembered pain from saddles. Most oftentimes, the remembered pain was not remembered at all after a few times in the Ansur. 90% of the 'forgetting' would happen within 20 minutes, and then I would loan the saddle for a week.

If the owner won't look into it further, I would walk away. I could not keep riding when the horse was telling me that the saddle did not fit.


ETA- I have a horse who reacts to the girth if it is not a curved one. Her conformation means that a standard girth is too far forward and drags the saddle forwards. When fitted with a curved girth, with the girth curve facing backwards, then the girth hangs straight and she is a happy bunny.
 
I am wondering about this conversation. Did it go in the order of them mentioning the problems, you suggesting back pain and ill fitting saddle, then them saying both horses have recently had a saddle fitting? If it did then this does not mean the saddle has been checked since the problem started or that it currently fits. Find out when exactly it was fitted. Find out when the problems started was it before or after the saddle fitting? Find out if the horse lost or gained weight since the saddle fitting or whether the workload significantly increased after the fitting. And how old is the horse? The young upto about 7 and mid teens onwards can change shape dramatically in the space of a few months though not all will. If an old saddle did not fit and a new one was bought was the horse treated for any pain caused by the original saddle? The answers to these questions might make it obvious that the saddle needs checking or if the horse needs a vet.
Cob Life said:
I honestly don't know! But the owners have assured me they've both had saddles recently refitted as when the first started talking to me about her the first things I flagged that could have caused the issues were back pain and an ill fitting saddle. I did consider ulcers as she could be quite kicky on the ground but that's stopped with confident consistent handling
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If it does turn out to be remembered pain and nothing else I would tackle the problem different to some others who have posted. What happens if you tack up using the cobs saddle? With the girth loose and nobody sat in it obviously since it probably will not fit. If she is fine then go with the option of disguising her saddle. But I would be getting on with the job not having it near her and all that first. I would tie up short so she cannot bite you, stay away from the back legs so she cannot kick you and quietly get on with tacking up being reassuring and ignoring any negative behaviour, not telling her off because it comes from fear and not naughtiness. Once the saddle is on and she realises it does not hurt then tacking up should be fine in future.

But if you think the saddle is a problem and the owner will not get on board with sorting this out then either end the share or get a second hand bareback pad and ride in that. They are sort of like a sheepskin numnah with stirrups and girth attachment and fit everything. Cheaper and more useful in the future for you than buying a second hand saddle for somebody else's horse. Probably not the best or easiest thing to jump in though.
 
Firefly9410 said:
I am wondering about this conversation. Did it go in the order of them mentioning the problems, you suggesting back pain and ill fitting saddle, then them saying both horses have recently had a saddle fitting? If it did then this does not mean the saddle has been checked since the problem started or that it currently fits. Find out when exactly it was fitted. Find out when the problems started was it before or after the saddle fitting? Find out if the horse lost or gained weight since the saddle fitting or whether the workload significantly increased after the fitting. And how old is the horse? The young upto about 7 and mid teens onwards can change shape dramatically in the space of a few months though not all will. If an old saddle did not fit and a new one was bought was the horse treated for any pain caused by the original saddle? The answers to these questions might make it obvious that the saddle needs checking or if the horse needs a vet.

If it does turn out to be remembered pain and nothing else I would tackle the problem different to some others who have posted. What happens if you tack up using the cobs saddle? With the girth loose and nobody sat in it obviously since it probably will not fit. If she is fine then go with the option of disguising her saddle. But I would be getting on with the job not having it near her and all that first. I would tie up short so she cannot bite you, stay away from the back legs so she cannot kick you and quietly get on with tacking up being reassuring and ignoring any negative behaviour, not telling her off because it comes from fear and not naughtiness. Once the saddle is on and she realises it does not hurt then tacking up should be fine in future.

But if you think the saddle is a problem and the owner will not get on board with sorting this out then either end the share or get a second hand bareback pad and ride in that. They are sort of like a sheepskin numnah with stirrups and girth attachment and fit everything. Cheaper and more useful in the future for you than buying a second hand saddle for somebody else's horse. Probably not the best or easiest thing to jump in though.
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I've never ridden her. Got some more info today. She had pain caused by a saddle 2 years and hasn't been ridden since (this I knew) had back checked (all fine) and saddle refitted twice then but played up with riders so has since just been left.
If I can get a saddle on her (not girthed up or anything) we will get a saddler out and get a saddle fitted to her current shape.
 
I am pleased the owners are being sensible about it. Good luck with her she sounds a lovely horse if you can get past the psychological problems connected with saddles.
 
I have a very similar sounding pony. he is scared of all tack and anything that goes over his back.

i have old crappy saddles that a friend found randomly in a charity shop. I put hay on the ground in the field and plonk these saddles on top. Pony then eats hay pushing saddles around and getting used to them being in his space.
I use a square saddle cloth to give him a rub down his neck and shoulder and then slowly over his withers, I can use am elasticated surcingle to hold this in place. I've invested in a thorn pad which I can now do the same with. The only issue we have is putting a girth on as the jingling of the girth is very scary. So my next purchase will be some old girths and I'll tie them to his haynets so they jingle when he's eating.

Mine is very food driven so I use it to my advantage and everything revolves around a haynet.

I'd definitely recommend getting a saddle pad or even a little treeless saddle to pop on her.
 
In my experience, key is having a well fitting saddle and getting used to that. Once one that does not hurt has been on their backs, the anxiety reduces significantly.
 
I'd put money on it still being the fit of the saddle she dislikes, even if it was fitted and ticks all boxes so to speak horses can still hate them, often it's that rail shape hasn't been addressed but sometimes it's just preference.
 
Cob Life said:
Just thought I'd do an update!
She's now happily being fully tacked up and lunged tack! I can't wait to actually get on her!

The first time I led hr in the arena with a saddle on she gave me a "what the h*ll?" Look but soon settled down and now doesn't question it
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Oh that's lovely news.

My boy accepted his saddle for the first time on friday - so hopefully we are both on a positive track now.

Hope things go smoothly for you and pony from here on.
 
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