At a loss.. talented horse but no work ethic.

[unknownn]

Hi all, hoping you could offer some advice.

Have a very talented mare who I've had for 4 years. Got her as a green 7 year old having not done much she's 11 this year. Can jump like heck and I bought her in the hopes she'd make a nice eventer knowing her flatwork would need work. Has a hot headed personality and is quirky.

Now, here's the issue.. the mare is not improving - it's not that she doesn't get worked or anything - I have finally found an instructor who gets on with her and understands her. It's the fact we take a step forward and 2 steps back every time. She has been known to rear when she's unhappy - and has caused injury to me through this a few years ago.

I know it sounds odd to say but the blasted thing has no "work ethic" she's talented but doesn't want to use this talent and work with you - She's still fighting the simplest moves like leg yield - she doesn't want to go sideways and will do everything she can to not go sideways until she gives up and does it once or twice before she starts playing up again.

Canter is another issue - very unbalanced but this comes with her breed and nothing unusual. She's quite long, likes to drag herself upon her shoulders and no matter what we try she doesn't want to sit back - fights everything if she can.

Finally getting contact in walk and trot - canter is a different story. Instructor suggested draw reins for a while to get her used to being in a contact in canter - this is working but only when she wants to - will happily ruin her mouth if it means she doesn't have to lower her head.

Saddle/Back/Teeth etc everything has been checked that might be causing her pain and there is nothing wrong with her.

Had the majority of the winter off due to lack of facilities and it was a hope she may come back willing - she was better than previous years but still fighting until she has to give up.

I'm sure i've missed out lots but just at a loss - wondering whether to cut my losses and sell (although she's not a child's horse) or carry on in the hope that one day we'll have a breakthrough!

 

[milliepops]

I know you say you've checked her back etc but I'm afraid the only ones I've known that are as you describe - apparently talented but genuinely impossible to make progress - have had physical problems. I've known 2 with spavins, 1 with PSD as well (both bilateral to a degree so not immediately obvious) one was a low grade wobbler... all bred for the job and apparently good prospects but just couldn't or wouldn't get any better in their work despite much patience and imaginative training.

What exactly has been looked at?

I think horses that are actually 100% physically OK will give a little glimmer of hope even in the deepest troughs of their training :wink3: so can you be sure that you aren't actually making some progress that you're discounting in your frustration?

 

[Annagain]

You've not mentioned hacking. Does she hack? If not maybe she's totally bored of the school and switching off as a result? If she does get out and about, is she better to hack?

If she's good to hack, you're certain there's nothing wrong (I suspect there might be but you haven't found it yet) and only if the rearing isn't dangerous I'd consider selling her to a hacking home with a totally honest advert. Was the time she injured you a one off or was that one of many and the only time you happened to get badly hurt? If it's a regular thing I wouldn't pass her on, I'd retire her or PTS. There's no point repeatedly banging your head against that wall if she's not improving - even less point if it makes her dangerous. It doesn't sound like either of you are happy.

 

[unknownn]

Hiya milliepops - three different physio/body worker types have been to see her and said they can't find anything that they think would physically cause her any issues. Spinal Xrays are in talks right now - showing no signs other than sheer stubbornness so I wouldn't expect something like KS although of course it is likely. Instructor thinks she's improving - slowly but it is probably my frustration that is clouding over any actual progression!

Annagain - She does hack however is strong cantering out. Hacked regularly and behaves however no difference if you try and 'school' out hacking - still throws a fit. She does enjoy her hacking however.
Injury was a one off - flipped herself over and I think she scared herself and she never went that high again - and only recently went up again about 2 years on. Never malicious (strangely enough) just a "p*ss off" sort of message.

 

[Sukistokes2]

I would also say after that length of time that there is an underlying , undiagnosed issue which is blocking her. It could be the smallest of things, you might never know what it is. I would find her a job to do that she is happy doing. Its a shame but thats horses for you.

My horse <<<< has shown that he can not cope in the school and will now be a happy hacker as I don't think its fair to keep pushing him. I know there is an issue and it could thank thousands of pounds to find. He recently bolted with me and I came off and wiped out a fence. It started coming apart when i added canter. Up until then we were fine. I am going to cut my losses and just enjoy him doing what he likes and get another horse for my dressage fix.

 

[milliepops]

Hiya milliepops - three different physio/body worker types have been to see her and said they can't find anything that they think would physically cause her any issues. Spinal Xrays are in talks right now - showing no signs other than sheer stubbornness so I wouldn't expect something like KS although of course it is likely. Instructor thinks she's improving - slowly but it is probably my frustration that is clouding over any actual progression!

I'm not normally one to go straight to a physical cause as so often horses just lack decent training... but I wouldn't use a physio or body worker to rule out any issues - they are there to help for sure but they don't have x ray specs. Without seeing the horse, none of us can say... but I'd have something nagging in the back of my mind from what you've described and e.g. hock issues can present in the way you've described with difficulty in lateral work and reluctance to engage/sit. Just my 2p.

What's she like with another rider? and is she insured?

 

[Sukistokes2]

I would also say after that length of time that there is an underlying , undiagnosed issue which is blocking her. It could be the smallest of things, you might never know what it is. I would find her a job to do that she is happy doing. Its a shame but thats horses for you.

My horse <<<< has shown that he can not cope in the school and will now be a happy hacker as I don't think its fair to keep pushing him. I know there is an issue and it could thank thousands of pounds to find. He recently bolted with me and I came off and wiped out a fence. It started coming apart when i added canter. Up until then we were fine. I am going to cut my losses and just enjoy him doing what he likes and get another horse for my dressage fix.

ps, I've just seen your post. Horses are not capable of being stubborn i that way, if they won't do something we want its because they do not understand or physically can not. Just because you can not see it does not mean its not there. Also if your that frustrated I really think its time to move on as your pent up frustration will not help. You could try a new instructor , new pair of eyes so to speak.

 

[unknownn]

Yes to insured, same with instructor who rides and trains to grand prix dressage. Have had a number of people on her - although they ride better so can get more out of her as such she still works in the same manner.

I have thought about hock issues with the fact she doesn't want to push off from behind. Again, all will need to be seen by a vet and if it turns out she does have for example arthritis say, and she won't jump again or something - I will have spent thousands I don't have sitting around to have a horse that won't be suitable for the job - that's my worry.

 

[milliepops]

better to know that now though? Rather than struggle on or sell her without knowing if there is actually something wrong with her? If she's insured then you only have the excess to pay. There might be something simple that you can do to improve things but you won't know unless you do a little more digging IMO. I'd have a chat with the vet about a loss of performance workup, see what they think. if you can take her to a clinic rather than have them come to you, that would probably be better.

 

[unknownn]

That is true. Will have a think about it all. Definitely have a chat with vet to see what they think!

Ah the joys of horses.

 

[be positive]

The mare here who seemed to have little work ethic and made no progress has changed completely since I realised she had PSSM, no one else had picked up on it, the physio had just said she was tight in her muscles, the signs can be extremely subtle and vary from horse to horse from completely tying up to just being reluctant to work if it proves too hard, ours was the latter end of the scale she seemed "normal" in every way but I always felt it was physical not behavioural issues that held her back, putting them on the supplements and suitable exercise/ diet regime is not expensive and if it works is an easy solution.

 

[Sukistokes2]

Unknown person you have a horse not doing the job you want now. Arthritis is a game changer but not the end of the world in most cases. My cob was diagnosed ten years ago and did well BUT I was not eventing him. In your place I would sell (if suitable), disclosing issues, full loan, retire or to pts. It sounds like your hitting your head off a brick wall with this horse. They are meant to be fun. Someone may love her as she is.....

 

[Flicker]

Hi all, hoping you could offer some advice.

Have a very talented mare who I've had for 4 years. Got her as a green 7 year old having not done much she's 11 this year. Can jump like heck and I bought her in the hopes she'd make a nice eventer knowing her flatwork would need work. Has a hot headed personality and is quirky.

Now, here's the issue.. the mare is not improving - it's not that she doesn't get worked or anything - I have finally found an instructor who gets on with her and understands her. It's the fact we take a step forward and 2 steps back every time. She has been known to rear when she's unhappy - and has caused injury to me through this a few years ago.

I know it sounds odd to say but the blasted thing has no "work ethic" she's talented but doesn't want to use this talent and work with you - She's still fighting the simplest moves like leg yield - she doesn't want to go sideways and will do everything she can to not go sideways until she gives up and does it once or twice before she starts playing up again.

Canter is another issue - very unbalanced but this comes with her breed and nothing unusual. She's quite long, likes to drag herself upon her shoulders and no matter what we try she doesn't want to sit back - fights everything if she can.

Finally getting contact in walk and trot - canter is a different story. Instructor suggested draw reins for a while to get her used to being in a contact in canter - this is working but only when she wants to - will happily ruin her mouth if it means she doesn't have to lower her head.

Saddle/Back/Teeth etc everything has been checked that might be causing her pain and there is nothing wrong with her.

Had the majority of the winter off due to lack of facilities and it was a hope she may come back willing - she was better than previous years but still fighting until she has to give up.

I'm sure i've missed out lots but just at a loss - wondering whether to cut my losses and sell (although she's not a child's horse) or carry on in the hope that one day we'll have a breakthrough!

What you describe shouts SI / pelvic / back pain to me and I would be talking to a vet who specialises in equine lameness.

Either that or whatever training techniques you are using are not giving her a clear enough picture of what you want her to do. I would be very wary of a trainer who suggests draw reins for a horse who is unbalanced and heavy in front.

Horses don't have a good or bad work ethic. They are either physically capable of doing what we ask or they are not. And they either understand us or they don't.

I hope you get to the bottom of things. All the best x

 

[ester]

She definitely needs a proper veterinary work up so you can decide her future. Not finding out doesnt mean the issue isn't there at the moment you are spending money on a horse you don't enjoy and a life the horse isn't much enjoying either. The fact that she enjoys hacking but imediately reacts badly if you ask for any more while hacking is a big alarm bell to me.

 

[ihatework]

It's a case of how much money are you prepared to throw at it.
Stop faffing with saddlers and physio'a - the number I have seen that say everything fine when there has turned out to be a veterinary issue is unbelieveable.
You either go the vet route for poor performance and accept there is the potential to get a huge bill and maybe few answers, or find out you have a dud (!!). Or you cut your losses and give up. Not all horses enjoy being ridden for a variety of reasons.

 

[samleigh]

I bought a mare, same issues, had back, teeth done routinely, once fit, began improving flatwork, just there was no improvement, got instructor to ride her, no change, 6 months later after literally no improvement, Vet investigations showed PSD in both hinds, she would happily hack, including canter in straight lines, it just was too difficult for her in the arena. My current Mare has been difficult but it has turned out to be ulcers & is currently being treated.

 

[ycbm]

Your description is spot on for one of my PSSM horses. I would try the diet and see what happens.

 

[Goldenstar]

Thats not what I call a horse with a poor work ethic and you do get them , they are often horses who have been spoiled in their attitude to training when they were young and you can often get those horses turned round if you are clever .
OP describes a horse who is not progressing with its training and these are usually either physically wrong in some way or need a change in the approach to their training .
And of course you do get horses who just don't like the job we have picked for them personally I can't be bothered to train a horse for a job it does not enjoy so I either change the job or the horse .

 

[FestiveFuzz]

Again, all will need to be seen by a vet and if it turns out she does have for example arthritis say, and she won't jump again or something - I will have spent thousands I don't have sitting around to have a horse that won't be suitable for the job - that's my worry.

Sadly that's horses for you. It sounds like you need to decide when to draw a line under this. At the moment you're on a hiding to nothing, investing in training a horse that seems to be giving little in return. I suspect, as others have mentioned, that there's a physical cause for this as I'm not sure horses manifest stubbornness in the way you've described upthread. I don't understand your logic in not investigating the cause of her resistance...surely it's much better to know what you're dealing with than push on blindly and still potentially end up with an unsuitable horse for the job?

 

[JillA]

I would be asking the vet about a bute trial - if she is much more forward and enthusiastic on a course of pain relief, you have your answer. Then find out where the pain is - feet? Bilateral lameness is sometimes difficult to spot, as is subclinical laminitis due to a metabolic issue. If you can pin it down to pain (or discomfort) the it's a case of investigating further. If not, then it is a schooling issue IMHO

Just as an aside, my physio asks a lot of detailed questions about feet and shoeing, she clearly believes foot discomfort can throw the whole body out.

 

[SEL]

You say a difficult canter comes with the breed - what is she?

I'm another one with a horse with PSSM - nappiness and unwillingness to work is one of the most common symptoms.

I also have bilateral hock arthritis to deal with. My mare finds it very, very hard to engage her hindquarters and is at her most comfortable doing a sort of poor quality western jog with all her weight on her front end. This isn't anything to do with work ethic (in fact she's really keen to learn new stuff), its just that she's sore.

I only started to get to the bottom of her problems when I really pushed the vets and got a second opinion from a different practice. I had to video her movement as well. The adrenaline of a lameness work-up meant that she wasn't really showing the true problem, but capturing her odd action on video meant a call back from the vet and x-rays.

 

[unknownn]

Hey all commenting about PSSM - can I have some common symptoms and background info about it please? I am searching and this mare has none of the symptoms coming up.

She has no problem with being forward or enthusiastic - in fact she's too forward the majority of the time - just running. Enthusiasm is also no issue - as long as you do what she wants she's quite happy!

Even if you ask for something she doesn't want to do she'll do it - with a fight. But there are times where there is no fight. Hence it being so infuriating.

 

[unknownn]

You say a difficult canter comes with the breed - what is she?

Welsh Cob

 

[Slightlyconfused]

My advice is to send her into a vet clinic for a loss of performance lameness work up and go from there.
Sounds like a pain/physical issue.

Body workers can't see arthritis etc.

 

[Wagtail]

It takes a horse a lot of energy and drive to fight against leg yielding and lowering the head. Horses with 'no work ethic' will always take the easiest way, not fight like you are describing, it take far too much energy. IMO, your horse has a physical issue. Do not use draw reins to force the head down. As others have said, get the horse to a good equine vet, have a full lameness work up. Go from there. Good luck.

 

[Wagtail]

Also agree with those saying physios and chiros cannot detect many physical issues. I had two physios look at my troubled gelding. Both pronouced his back as strong and pain free. Even the vet said it wouldn't be kissing spines until I insisted he was x-rayed. Vet went quiet. It was the worse case of KS she had ever seen.

 

[Wheels]

I have one like this - we had a bone scan and he had issues in several joints.

 

[unknownn]

Can anyone give me a price guide for full work up? Cheers.

 

[FfionWinnie]

I don't believe horses have a work ethic. Let's face it they could all kill us every ride if they felt like it. They don't because inherently they are nice kind animals. Get the vet into this horse and don't stop until you get an answer. Or rather do stop fighting with this horse until you get one.

Incidentally as PSSM has already been mentioned, none of the checks you mention would show any issue with my PSSM mare who is the nicest most forward going and safe horse you could meet. It is still career limiting for her and most affected horses tho.

 

[ester]

NB Bute trial won't show up back issues.

Welshies possibly but aren't high on the pssm risk list. I really don't think they should find canter that tricky either but they do have a habit of working with tension that can make life even harder for them/ set any pain off.

Work up costs really depends how quick you find a problem.