At a loss with my mare (scared of own shadow)

[Supanova]

I've had my 9 yr old mare since a 5 yr old. She has always been very spooky and constantly on the look out for things that are going to jump out and bite her, but I thought that it would get better as she gets older, but instead it seems to be almost getting worse.

I went to Bold Heath BS yesterday. Haven't been there for a while and fair enough, it is quite a spooky venue. You have to go through a tunnel into quite a dark, small indoor arena. Anyway, she warmed up very well and was feeling soft and flexible and jumping the fences confidently. I stopped to do her girth up near the entrance to the arena and she obviously thought we were going in the tunnel and she started napping away from it. I managed to get her to walk past it calmly in the end but this demonstrates how she was thinking. When our turn came, my mum had to lead her through the tunnel and my girl was like a 3 yr old who had never seen such scary things in her life. I took her into the arena and at first I could barely get her to canter because she was so busy looking around at everything. I managed to get her going and over the first 4 fences but she then got eliminated at a double with a blue filler. She took a real dislike to the fence, but really the problem started because she was so spooked about everything generally.

Bearing in mind, that she has been to this venue quite a lot historically (ok not this year, but before that) and jumped in many other varied places, her behaviour is quite extreme.

Another example of her behaviour is that I was riding at home the other day and i warmed up in an exercise blanket. After 10 mins i took it off and put it on the fence. Well it was the most terrifying thing she had ever seen in her life!

I am just at the end of my tether and don't know what to do for the best. I don't feel bullying her would do any good at all, but cajoling doesn't seem to help either. She could be such a talented horse if I could get her confident and her mind in the right place.

Just to add she has had everything (including ulcers, eyes, lameness etc) checked and she is fine. She jumps well in venues she is used to and confident in so it isn't this type of problem.

Someone has suggested sticking to venues she likes, but this really limits us so I want to try and resolve if possible.

Any thoughts gratefully received.

 

[ace87]

Have you tried giving her some Oxyshot to take the edge off? I had one like her who was still like that at 15yrs old and never thought of using Oxyshot until my trainer used it on some of her livery horses she was competing to help them focus and de-stress.

 

[Dizzle]

Prokalm? Seems about the best calmer I've used on my special tb. I buy a sample pack for £10.20 and just give it to him when needed, got him travelling really nicely last time we used it.

 

[wench]

Are you 100% sure she is scared and not taking the piddle?

 

[humblepie]

I sympathise because mine can be silly about, say, walking onto a different surface going into an arena (i.e. the rubber matting in the doorway at Addington) but totally bomb proof about most things and life generally. He just basically needs a good growl at and goes on.

Re going into rings I would try to get a lead in from someone else either the horse about to leave (I had to do that with my old show jumper) or someone on the ground and work through it.

Regarding in the ring, I am always told that try to get them working as properly as possible and then they listen to you, not shy (the theory sounds good!).

Good luck.

 

[Supanova]

ace87 and dizzle - I haven't tried a calmer because she is quite lazy and i feared it would make her more idle. Do you think that would happen?

Wench - no i'm not sure she isn't taking the piddle to be honest. She acts like she's terrified buts its hard to tell for sure! She is a very scared horse in general, out in the field etc so its not just when i'm riding.

 

[kerilli]

I have heard very very good things of Equifeast for ones like this, I am going to try it for my super-flighty mare.
Other than that though, have you tried riding her very very securely. Literally 2 legs to 2 hands, all the time, really channelling and supporting her, thinking of it as giving her confidence by holding her hand every second, giving her as little wiggle & spook room as possible, and being v black/white about everything? if that's already how you ride her, i apologise... it's just sometimes the ones with the overactive imaginations really need that sort of channelling, and if you ride them the way you can a 'normal' horse (i.e. a bit more relaxed, directing and then trusting a bit, kind of thing!) they look for more dragons, whereas if you say "i've got you" all the time they relax more. hope that makes sense.

 

[siennamum]

My youngster acts as if the world is out to get him much of the time. TBH being reassuring is the worst thing with some of them IMO. He has to be ridden as Kerilli describes, I am hoping that he will grow out of it as he comes to realise that it will not get him out of work, and as he grows up and accepts being told what to do.

I experimented recently to see whether a softly, softly approach would be more successful, I let him stop and look at something he would normally be ridden very strongly at trot past. He stopped, looked, span like a polo pony & tried to go home. He then really would not entertain going past it. In alowing him too much time, he had decided that I also was afraid. He needs to be given no choice. Maybe that's what your mare is like, she can't cope with making decisions & you need to be way more demanding. (may be completely innapropriate of course)

 

[Tinks81]

ace87 and dizzle - I haven't tried a calmer because she is quite lazy and i feared it would make her more idle. Do you think that would happen?

Wench - no i'm not sure she isn't taking the piddle to be honest. She acts like she's terrified buts its hard to tell for sure! She is a very scared horse in general, out in the field etc so its not just when i'm riding.

my showjumper was like this i use relax me by horse first. he was very lazy to ride but you would be going round fine then the next minute be on the opposite sid eof the school for no reason !!

I must say i got a pro on him who actually gave him lots of confidence - he is now ridden by a 16yo girl and jumps young riders tracks xx

 

[Wilbur_Force]

I have this sometimes with my boy. As per Kerilli's reply above, I have found that the better he is between hand and leg, the less he is inclined to be silly. He has pony blood in him so cheeky is part of his personality. I get him in front of the leg, lots of trans, lots of changes of direction, bend, concentrating all the time on me and not backing off looking around. He is very much a 'tell me what to do and I'll do it' horse. He prefers a secure contact (but not hanging on or leaning) and over time I have been able to ease off him and he now trusts me more. However, there are still times that we have to go over the basic rules again! You will get there. Some need to be occupied in the mind as much as physically

 

[classicalfan]

Sometimes giving a spooky horse time to think can be counter-productive. Some need you to be one step ahead the whole time. Out on a hack or warming up try renvers, travers, etc near spooky things - trick is to keep going forward but allowing them to bend away from the scary object. Never allow their concentration to waver and keep their heads full of the stuff you want - lots of transitions, changes of direction, etc. The more complicated the movements, the better you and your horse will tune it to each other and the more confidence gained.

 

[Supanova]

I have heard very very good things of Equifeast for ones like this, I am going to try it for my super-flighty mare.
Other than that though, have you tried riding her very very securely. Literally 2 legs to 2 hands, all the time, really channelling and supporting her, thinking of it as giving her confidence by holding her hand every second, giving her as little wiggle & spook room as possible, and being v black/white about everything? if that's already how you ride her, i apologise... it's just sometimes the ones with the overactive imaginations really need that sort of channelling, and if you ride them the way you can a 'normal' horse (i.e. a bit more relaxed, directing and then trusting a bit, kind of thing!) they look for more dragons, whereas if you say "i've got you" all the time they relax more. hope that makes sense.

Thanks for your reply. I have tried Equifeast. I do think it made her less spooky but I also felt it made her quite flat. She is naturally quite a lazy horse and with this she was worse and therefore didn't really have the spark needed to jump well. I have to say that I didn't ring them and speak to them so perhaps we could have adjusted the amounts - I will give them a call.

I try to ride her the way you have described and can manage it quite well at home, but if I'm honest when she goes into the ring like she did yesterday, i find it incredibly difficult to have the physical strength. I literally could barely get her out of trot. I do wonder sometimes if I need to get a pro to ride her who is perhaps a bit stronger and more capable. My trainer once said that she might be a man's horse (although I don't really believe such things!)

Siennamum - I think perhaps i have been a bit too softly, softly with her in the past. I used to try and ignore the spooking as I had read that was the best way to deal with it, but i think i needed to be a bit more aggressive and say "listen to me!"

Tinks - i have used Horse First products before and found them to be good so I will give that a try.

 

[SmallHunter]

What is she fed? I have a gelding who can behave in a very similar way and it is basically because he has a ridiculous amount of intolerances to feed and when we changed his feed the change in his behaviour was pretty incredible.

 

[MissSBird]

There's a company called Forest Farmacy (not a typo, they spell it that way) who do a whole range of different herbal mixture calmers for riders and horses. The different mixtures are supposed to have slightly different effects. I've not used them myself personally, but my instructor was had great results with them. I have also used some of their other herbal stuff with great results. Might be worth a shot if you're running out of options?

This is their site - www.forestfarmacy.com. Perfect Performance instantly strikes me as the right one, but you know your own horse best of course.

My boy used to be very tense jumping in strange places. He'd jump anything at home, then totally freeze up and refuse every jump in the ring at least once. In the end it took me going to a riding club novice jumping night and chatting with the owner about my needs. My sister helped me by being near the gate. It took picking up canter in the warmup, cantering straight to the arena enterance, in and over the first jump to get the idea into his head that he was to go. We did two classes that day, four rounds (he jumped clear twice bless him) and we've never looked back since.

But since that day, I'm always careful not to let him drop down. Just before I'm due to go in I'm cantering/going forward and I try and go straight in from that when I can. If I feel him back off at all I'll trot up the tunnel and in. As soon as I'm in the ring straight into a forward trot/canter, whether it's round the outside of the dressage arena or to the start area of the course. Some people might find it rude to go in at a faster pace - but if I don't he's got too much time to think about other things than me!

Good luck!

 

[kerilli]

Thanks for your reply. I have tried Equifeast. I do think it made her less spooky but I also felt it made her quite flat. She is naturally quite a lazy horse and with this she was worse and therefore didn't really have the spark needed to jump well. I have to say that I didn't ring them and speak to them so perhaps we could have adjusted the amounts - I will give them a call.

I try to ride her the way you have described and can manage it quite well at home, but if I'm honest when she goes into the ring like she did yesterday, i find it incredibly difficult to have the physical strength. I literally could barely get her out of trot. I do wonder sometimes if I need to get a pro to ride her who is perhaps a bit stronger and more capable. My trainer once said that she might be a man's horse (although I don't really believe such things!)

Siennamum - I think perhaps i have been a bit too softly, softly with her in the past. I used to try and ignore the spooking as I had read that was the best way to deal with it, but i think i needed to be a bit more aggressive and say "listen to me!"

Tinks - i have used Horse First products before and found them to be good so I will give that a try.

Hmm, right, it sounds as if she is very spooky and silly but also NOT in front of the leg, which is a really dodgy (if not impossible) combination! She MUST be in front of the leg - ride with 2 schooling whips, or spurs if necessary, make sure she has enough energy from her food (oil?), and teach her, through repetition and reward, that she MUST be in front of the leg but also accept it. It's a delicate balance - she's got to act off it immediately but sensibly... not leap off it like a loony, but not ignore it either. You shouldn't need to be strong tbh, just determined for a while at home and get her into the new habit of really really listening and then accepting and responding to your aids immediately, not going "Lalalalala i can't hear you, lalala aaaaaaaarrrrrgggghhhhhhhh zoom" which is what it sounds as if she's doing now. Yes, I've had one just like that!
tbh i think your new buzzword with her needs to be STRICT - you need to be the no-nonsense schoolteacher who none of the kids dares to muck around with. I'd be really exacting, but then very quick to praise.

 

[tigers_eye]

I'm re-reading one of the Bartels' books, can't remember what it's called in English, the literal translation is "Conscious Horse Riding", and they have this theory that "the most scared horse lives longest", and that often the dominant or lead mare is a super scaredy cat, and this helps protect the herd.

Their theory is that you have to be more dominant, less softly softly, with these horses, although always remaining true to the principal that you ask, pressure, reaction, reward. Once something is learnt the pressure step is removed. It's hard to explain without typing out entire chapters but it is very interesting and could help!

 

[twinkle]

Dont want to worry you but had my mare since she was 2 around when she turned five she got more and more stressy/spooky, about the tinyist of things. Thought it was just her getting older and just the way she was, but few more symtoms later a couple years later and she was scoped for ulcers which she had. she was also lazy but spooky since being treated no longer lazy and no longer spooky. not saying thats whats going on here but maybe there is something else to think about.

 

[Supanova]

Smallhunter - she is fed Allen & Page Power and Performance as she needs energy bit its supposed to be fibre and oil based and relatively low starch. I previously had her on winergy equilibrium and she was the same on that. Any thoughts as to what she might be intolerant to?

MissSBird - thank you for the herbal website. i will have a look. Your advice to canter into the arena and keep her thinking forward is good as i think this is exactly what she needs. I will try that next time. Although, it would have been impossible where I was yesterday as there is a concrete tunnel.

Kerrili - fully agree that she is not enough in front of the leg. It is something that I have been working on really hard with my instructor and she has improved. I can get some lovely work out of her. At times she is so forward and willing and listens. Trouble is that it still goes out of the window when we go in a spooky arena so she is obviously not yet well enough trained! Sounds like I need to keep at this though. I am definitely not strict enough!

Tigers_eye - very interesting. She is definitely the herd leader and look out. I will take a look on amazon for the book.

Twinkle - I have had her scoped for ulcers and she was all clear. I have been trying to find a physical reason for it but not been able to and I honestly think it is mostly her nature. For example, she has recently gone out in a new big field with my other horse who she adores. Without the other horse she wouldn't venture very far from the gate, but with my other horse encouraging her she braves it! Its quite funny to watch as my other horse trots off and looks behind her and says "come on its ok"!!

 

[siennamum]

My spooky gelding is actually very dominant on thr ground & had to be cut early as he was rather 'male'. He definitely qualifies T-E, I may have to read that book.

 

[cptrayes]

She's not a KWPN is she? My nine year old is just like it and I know of plenty of other KWPNs which are difficult in temperament,

Mine is quite literally still scared of his own shadow on the road and no amount of me being "the boss" will change his mind. I've done plenty of other horses that other people had failed with, so I know I am not being weak with him.

In the end, the only thing that will get him past things he is frightened of (daffodils newly flowered on a verge, for example) is to take my leg off and wait him out. It is very counter intuitive to take away the support of my leg and the request to go forward, but he clearly feels "hemmed in" by it and it makes him panic and spin. By "wait him out" I mean sit there for anything up to an hour until he decides that daffodils won't hurt him. Getting off simply makes him worse next time. I never hack out if I have a fixed time to be home

I'm afraid I have come to the conclusion that mine is incurable, because every time I let his exposure to the things he is frightened of drop, he gets as bad as he ever was all over again.

I doubt if your mare is lazy from what you have said. I think she is probably shutting you off mentally because she cannot cope with the level of input of taking in the things that frighten her and listening to you at the same time.

I hope you crack the problem.

 

[alwaysbroke]

I have heard very very good things of Equifeast for ones like this,

Was about to suggest Equifeast, we have a lad who would turn tail and run at his own shadow, a very stressy character who we think had been beaten before he came to us. Have used Equifeast products for years so started him on the Gold. This year he is a changed horse actively takes you forward, enjoys show jumping and has gone clear in a few hunter trials, something that we thought he would never cope with. have also done alot of desensitising work at home, putting scary things on the menage fence, scary things on the floor and lunged him over them, giving him time to work out that 'things' weren't out to get him. Also had to work out when he was actually scared and when he was taking the Micheal.

Have a chat with Malcolm at Equifeast he is very approachable and helpful, he has tailored some of the supplements to suit the needs of our various horses.

 

[Supanova]

She's not a KWPN is she? My nine year old is just like it and I know of plenty of other KWPNs which are difficult in temperament,

Mine is quite literally still scared of his own shadow on the road and no amount of me being "the boss" will change his mind. I've done plenty of other horses that other people had failed with, so I know I am not being weak with him.

In the end, the only thing that will get him past things he is frightened of (daffodils newly flowered on a verge, for example) is to take my leg off and wait him out. It is very counter intuitive to take away the support of my leg and the request to go forward, but he clearly feels "hemmed in" by it and it makes him panic and spin. By "wait him out" I mean sit there for anything up to an hour until he decides that daffodils won't hurt him. Getting off simply makes him worse next time. I never hack out if I have a fixed time to be home

I'm afraid I have come to the conclusion that mine is incurable, because every time I let his exposure to the things he is frightened of drop, he gets as bad as he ever was all over again.

I doubt if your mare is lazy from what you have said. I think she is probably shutting you off mentally because she cannot cope with the level of input of taking in the things that frighten her and listening to you at the same time.

I hope you crack the problem.

Hi SantaPaws - no she is not a KWPN, she is a Belgian WB by Parco. I think your last paragraph might have hit the nail on the head. Interesting about taking your leg off and waiting her out. I do sometimes feel that pressure from my leg doesn't help as she feels forced into a situation. I will have a little try of both the channelling tactic suggested by Kerrilli and this and try to figure out which is best. My mum keeps saying "you'll never change her" but i really don't want to give up. When we jump at places where she has also trained, she is an absolute joy, but if we don't go to a venue for a few months, its back to square one.

Alwaysbroke - thanks. I will give Malcom a call and try Equifeast again. Anything is worth a shot!!

 

[cptrayes]

I was pretty stunned when my riding instructor told me to take my leg off. I have never come across another horse like him, but with the leg on he just boils over and he will climb fences, break through them, climb banks, anything to get away. Leg off and patience works every time, but I've spent quite a few hours sitting and waiting. My friend owns a "cutter off". He isn't lazy at all but whenever he feels the slightest bit threatened he goes into a crawl. He is 5 and just growing out of it now. If you have a combination of the two, I really feel for you!

 

[JVB]

She's not a KWPN is she? My nine year old is just like it and I know of plenty of other KWPNs which are difficult in temperament,

Mine is quite literally still scared of his own shadow on the road and no amount of me being "the boss" will change his mind. I've done plenty of other horses that other people had failed with, so I know I am not being weak with him.

In the end, the only thing that will get him past things he is frightened of (daffodils newly flowered on a verge, for example) is to take my leg off and wait him out. It is very counter intuitive to take away the support of my leg and the request to go forward, but he clearly feels "hemmed in" by it and it makes him panic and spin. By "wait him out" I mean sit there for anything up to an hour until he decides that daffodils won't hurt him. Getting off simply makes him worse next time. I never hack out if I have a fixed time to be home

I'm afraid I have come to the conclusion that mine is incurable, because every time I let his exposure to the things he is frightened of drop, he gets as bad as he ever was all over again.

I doubt if your mare is lazy from what you have said. I think she is probably shutting you off mentally because she cannot cope with the level of input of taking in the things that frighten her and listening to you at the same time.

I hope you crack the problem.

I've also got a 9yr old KWPN mare who is exactly the same, I really struggle sometimes, such potential but her mind doesn't half wander.

I feel trapped, she needs to work on the basics, rhythm, suppleness etc but unless I throw more complicated work at her (lateral stuff) she won't concentrate and because the basics aren't as developed as I would like we don't do the lateral stuff as well as we could, feels like downward spiral at the mo.

She can literally be doing leg yield and doing an ok job of it, but her ears are a total give away, they'll just be facing the outside of the arena fixated on whatever it is she wants to spook at, she'll do the leg yield but without much attention, are they just too clever for their own good?

How do you get a horse to concentrate?????

 

[Supanova]

I've also got a 9yr old KWPN mare who is exactly the same, I really struggle sometimes, such potential but her mind doesn't half wander.

I feel trapped, she needs to work on the basics, rhythm, suppleness etc but unless I throw more complicated work at her (lateral stuff) she won't concentrate and because the basics aren't as developed as I would like we don't do the lateral stuff as well as we could, feels like downward spiral at the mo.

She can literally be doing leg yield and doing an ok job of it, but her ears are a total give away, they'll just be facing the outside of the arena fixated on whatever it is she wants to spook at, she'll do the leg yield but without much attention, are they just too clever for their own good?

How do you get a horse to concentrate?????

Its nice to hear I'm not alone in this problem! My mare is the same - really want to work her long and low at the beginning of a session and focus on getting her soft and supple but she is so spooky that we have to start doing proper work far earlier than i'd like. Although having said that, I have taken to warming up for 10 mins on a totally long rein and not asking for anything and this seems to help......although have to be brave as at times this means she just spooks, spins and sets off across the arena!

 

[cptrayes]

I've also got a 9yr old KWPN mare who is exactly the same, I really struggle sometimes, such potential but her mind doesn't half wander.

I feel trapped, she needs to work on the basics, rhythm, suppleness etc but unless I throw more complicated work at her (lateral stuff) she won't concentrate and because the basics aren't as developed as I would like we don't do the lateral stuff as well as we could, feels like downward spiral at the mo.

She can literally be doing leg yield and doing an ok job of it, but her ears are a total give away, they'll just be facing the outside of the arena fixated on whatever it is she wants to spook at, she'll do the leg yield but without much attention, are they just too clever for their own good?

How do you get a horse to concentrate?????

Oh this could be me! In the end my instructor and I gave up trying to teach him to trot a 20 metre circle and taught him flying changes instead. If you don't make it complicated he doesn't want to know - but such enormous talent when he does!

I compete at medium, with low scores, because we both find it more fun than competing at elementary scoring points. He's now got half pass, simple changes, flying changes as singles, a proper medium trot (only took 2 years, he's a natural collector ) and he is close to tempis (two changes in 40 metres, working on getting three), piaffe (one or two steps from a very slow trot) and passage and has become great fun to ride.

But I got a new arena recently and stopped hacking regularly, and suddenly he will not hack again, but has become really dangerous

You are not alone

 

[cptrayes]

Its nice to hear I'm not alone in this problem! My mare is the same - really want to work her long and low at the beginning of a session and focus on getting her soft and supple but she is so spooky that we have to start doing proper work far earlier than i'd like. Although having said that, I have taken to warming up for 10 mins on a totally long rein and not asking for anything and this seems to help......although have to be brave as at times this means she just spooks, spins and sets off across the arena!

I can only warm up in walk, where I have to absolutely insist that he does not raise his head. Nothing relaxed and loose, otherwise I have no control for the next 50 minutes.

I've lost my instructor because she has moved and no-one else understands him or lets me ride him the way he needs to be ridden. They just won't believe me, and think it's me

 

[cptrayes]

One tip is to make every schooling session a new experience until they give up being frightened out of their wits by new experiences. I gathered a collection of umbrellas, towels, rugs, boxes etc and put one or more in a new place every time and worked around them. Schooling wise, mine is now pretty good, but I have no idea what would happen if I ever compete at a new place, we only go to the one.

 

[charlie76]

I have a spooky horse. If I am soft with him he is worse! I ride him from the start with a firm contact and without being aggressive make sure his really in front Of my leg with transitions and a tap with the stick or a quick kick if he drops behind. The first fifteen minutes are like this until he us really on the aids and probably a bit too deep But when he is like this he focus on me. When he is listenin I then work him long and low but midway through the session not at the start or you have no connection. Then up and out.
All the time however, I still have deep and forward in my tool box to go back to if he starts spooking again.
he is that bad he spooks at some one sneezing !

 

[MandyMoo]

havent read everyones posts so sorry if this has already been said.. but maybe she is literally just taking the p***?? and just needs bossing about?

alternatively you could always try miracle kalm paste syringe which is what i use on Bugsy for competing as he is a very spooky horse and finds it hard to concentrate at venues and leaps about (and once he is upset once, thats it for the day!!!)

hope you get it sorted!!!