At a loss with new horse - ideas please

ew1801 said:
yes i know you pain. i had my mare for 11 years and she was quirky but she was my one in a life time horse. i have another one now who is perfect in everyway but i still miss my stubborn grumpy quirky mare, but you will find horses that dont trust people very much have barriors up but once you get through those barriors you have a friend for life
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I do hope you are right.

Thanks everyone for the advice
 
mcw
I think withhold food is a bad idea.
It's a necessity for a horse to trickle feed, stopping its wrong and could make the horse angrier!

The suggestions of reinforcement is best, back him up, reposition him and consistent with the behavior that is and isn't acceptable.
 
goodtimes said:
From what I can gather, he didn't have a good upbringing as a youngster
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It can be difficult but you really need to see things from his POV. I'm probably going to sound terribly fluffy here, when in fact I expect all horses to be well-mannered and will slap them if they are naughty BUT it doesn't sound to me as though he is being naughty, more that he is being defensive.

IMO you will need to be very calm and consistent. This horse needs to know exactly what he can expect from you. You need to avoid putting him in a position where he is tempted to threaten you and ignore behaviour which is just annoying, rather than dangerous. Put his haynets in the stable when he isn't in it.
I once had a similar horse to yours, with a poor upbringing. She was extremely proud of her food, to the point that she wouldn't let you into the box, if she had hay. We worked around this by putting the hay and feed in before her, to start with. There was a walk-way behind a grill at the back of the stable and we used to stand there while she was eating. She got used to it gradually. We gave her bucket feeds in the field, by holding the bucket over the wall. It took time but we had her for 20 yrs and for most of that time, we went into/through her box, with/without food, with no problem. In fact after the first couple of years, when she got her first hay of the winter, she would bring a mouthful to show me. She was actually a very affectionate horse but you would never have guessed that when we first got her.
 
Pearlsasinger and others have given great advice.

As a sharer I know it can be hard to bond with a new horse after establishing a good relationship with the previous one.

Try not to compare the two.

A wise instructor said to me once that every hour you spend with a horse is a unique privilege because that is an hour no other person will ever experience as each horse is individual, and each hour of a horse's life is different.

She got me to enjoy a schooling session with a horse who’d consistently tried to chucked me off and I’d said I’d never ride again after previous instructor had bailed out as she didn’t want to ride him either!

Your horse doesn’t sound bad at all. He sounds to have had a pretty rotten start, to be bored/hungry in stable (you try it for a couple of hours with no one of your own kind to interact with!) and to be defensive because he is scared.

I know something the size of a horse can be scary but in this circumstance it sounds as though he is more scared than you are… just bigger! The same instructor said to me that she has never lost her fear of horse, because it isn’t smart to forget they can do us damage.

So, yes, be careful. But be empathetic and appreciate the immense privilege you have in spending that time with your horse.
 
are you sure he's not hungry which is causing the grumpiness? If he's only getting 2 hour turnout and is in the rest of the time do make sure there's ad lib hay. When horses have something to munch on all the time they are in they are usually a lot more friendlier. :) Cobs especially

kicking doors and pawing are often signs of boredom and frustration, is there no way you can leave him out for longer - if grass is the issue then pile of hay in the field?
 
T's mum said:
are you sure he's not hungry which is causing the grumpiness? If he's only getting 2 hour turnout and is in the rest of the time do make sure there's ad lib hay. When horses have something to munch on all the time they are in they are usually a lot more friendlier. :) Cobs especially

kicking doors and pawing are often signs of boredom and frustration, is there no way you can leave him out for longer - if grass is the issue then pile of hay in the field?
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Unfortunately, 2 hours a day is all he can get over winter at our yard - that's pretty good round these parts - most yards have no winter turnout.

I feed him ad lib hay - he never goes without during the day or night.
 
how is pawing and rubbing the head being rude - the horse is clearly saying it needs something and that something is either turn out, food or some attention, trying providing those 3 basic things and i am sure the horse will become the little angel you want it to be, do not withhold food/hay or throw water that is just barbaric i am afraid. i do not agree with one poster saying close the top door, why, take an animal that is supposed to be in a herd and lock it in a dark place so it clearly cannot see any other horses, frightens me i am afraid.
 
mcw - pray tell me you do not own horses if your way of training them is by withholding their food, animals do not have the ability to reason or think rationally like humans, eating is the most natural thing for them to do.

OP horses sense when you are nervous and they play on it esp if they have had a bad experience from another time, so when you go in to his box and he puts his bum to you do this (1) stand there and get his attention with a wisp of hay or treat in your hand for him to turn around towards you then enter the box and be confident in yourself and get his head collar on or (2) just walk past his bum, even touching his back end so he knows you are there and around him, if you dilly dally about he is going to think something is up and be ready for whatever it might be e.g. kicking out with hind legs. This type of behaviour is very common in racehorses (can you blame them) and this is the way we go about getting that one that doesnt want to go out for work today.
 
I think pawing and rubbing on me is rude.

These were just examples.
If you read my thread it is when he is told NO! That the problem behaviour starts.

Not the fact that he paws, rubs on me, turns his bum when I enter the stable sometimes, tries to snatch as grass when leading etc - its when he is told that this is unnaceptable, that the problem starts.

Maybe I should have re worded it to ask, 'How do you correct unnaceptable behaviour in a horse which doesn't like being told NO'
 
I have never let my horses rub their head on me since my mum's ex racehorse broke my mum's cheeckbone by rubbing his head on her face - because he was lead to believe that rubbing on a human was acceptable behaviour.
 
Don't worry goodtimes or feel you need to defend yourself. It was perfectly clear that you were looking for ways of managing his reactions to being told off. I too agree that barging and rubbing on you are 'rude' behaviours.
 
canteron said:
Interesting Rhino. I have a horse who when she gets worried is very bargy. I think I would definitely investigate this. It may be that a bit of clicker training, just to let him know exactly what behaviour you were looking for might be a fun way to bond with him and let him know his boundaries.
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I was going to suggest clicker training too. I think it is very valuable for use with animals that have behaviour issues which escalate if you respond to the behaviour. Teaching him what is good and acceptable behaviour and ignoring unacceptable behaviour can work wonders. I know some people are a bit dismissive of it, but if I can train my very shy cat to come when called, sit, hold out a paw and have his claws trimmed and take tablets with clicker training then teaching a horse some basic manners should be a doddle ;) Clicker training is great for setting boundaries and giving an animal confidence in knowing what is acceptable - the more my cat learns what I do like the more his unacceptable behaviours have stopped.
 
He sounds bored and wants attention. Horses don't understand words per-say more the language of your body. I certainly would not smack him. Get him working outside the stable on the ground and let him rest in the stable that way he will see the stable as somewhere to relax rather than escape and demand attention from.
 
goodtimes said:
I think pawing and rubbing on me is rude.

These were just examples.
If you read my thread it is when he is told NO! That the problem behaviour starts.

Not the fact that he paws, rubs on me, turns his bum when I enter the stable sometimes, tries to snatch as grass when leading etc - its when he is told that this is unnaceptable, that the problem starts.

Maybe I should have re worded it to ask, 'How do you correct unnaceptable behaviour in a horse which doesn't like being told NO'
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My answer is exactly what I said before, avoid the opportunity for him to do anything which is dangerous and ignore the merely annoying. I agree that rubbing is dangerous behaviour but instead of saying/shouting no, I'd simply push his head away. When he puts his head down while you are leading him, lift it back up again, etc, etc.
IMO you need to look at each behaviour individually and 'risk-assess' it. Then look at it from the horse's POV. When you have built a relationship with him and he trusts you to be consistent, he will not react badly to your voice/body-language, which is what is happening atm.
This will take time (and effort).
 
Pearlsasinger said:
My answer is exactly what I said before, avoid the opportunity for him to do anything which is dangerous and ignore the merely annoying. I agree that rubbing is dangerous behaviour but instead of saying/shouting no, I'd simply push his head away. When he puts his head down while you are leading him, lift it back up again, etc, etc.
IMO you need to look at each behaviour individually and 'risk-assess' it. Then look at it from the horse's POV. When you have built a relationship with him and he trusts you to be consistent, he will not react badly to your voice/body-language, which is what is happening atm.
This will take time (and effort).
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Thanks - Like I said, most of the time he is as good as gold.

He was kicking the door tonight at tea time (he can hear me preparing his tea) I ignored it - when he stopped I told him how good he was.

It all makes perfect sense - but very different to the way I have been with my other horses - which is a No! or OI!, when they are being rude. Its always worked in the past - but obviously not this this fella.

I will just have to grit my teeth and ignore the annoying behaviour for now and praise the good.

Thanks again for your advice - it is appreciated.
 
You don't need to ness completely ignore the annoying behaviour. Some of it you could correct. He rubs on you, push him off and make him step back away from you etc. And poss put in a firm NO, but in a loud or aggressive tone. He'll quickly learn to associate the acceptable (to him) NO with being stopped and moved away.
 
Kallibear said:
You don't need to ness completely ignore the annoying behaviour. Some of it you could correct. He rubs on you, push him off and make him step back away from you etc. And poss put in a firm NO, but in a loud or aggressive tone. He'll quickly learn to associate the acceptable (to him) NO with being stopped and moved away.
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Yes - sorry, I didn't mean I will ignore everything, just the things that annoy me like kicking the door or pawing.

I've got it in my head to just gently reposition him when he paws, or ask him to take a step back; move his head away with a quiet No (rather than a loud NO) when he pushes me; move his head when he lunges for grass etc.

I don't think being a teacher as a job helps! I'm a bit of a bossy bugger with high expectations - got to be with the kids I teach!
 
Haven't read all th posts and I don't know if this will help but when my cob used to do this I would get a treat (something small, like a polo) draw it under his nose and hold it right close to his chest until he walked backwards a few steps, then gave him the treat. He is now good as gold, if I so much as open his stable door when he has his head over it he steps right back! Might be worth a try!
 
goodtimes said:
I don't think being a teacher as a job helps! I'm a bit of a bossy bugger with high expectations - got to be with the kids I teach!
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I'm a teacher too!

You need to view the ignoring, just like you would at school. It is a behaviour management strategy, your horse has special needs. To some people it will look like doing nothing but you will know better, (think about training your lunchtime supervisors, lol!).
 
I would possibly be tempted to 'tone down' the tellings off. Not stop telling him, but rather than saying it with a bit of a growl or angry tone, just start off by saying it normally (as if you were having a conversation with them!!)and pushing them away/pulling head up if pulls down to eat etc, then just try and ask him to do something else straight away. If he does it - reward. Keep doing this over and over again and if necessary, after time increase the tone a little bit if he still tries, until you find where his threshold is - ie what level of 'telling off' he responds to positively rather than flying off the handle. My mare is a TINY bit like this (not any way the same behaviour wise, but she reacts very badly to tellings off by running backwards and rearing if on lead rein etc). I struggled with her for the first year when leading her in from the field - she would start getting very bargy and rearing/shooting forwards and circling around me etc. At first I though it was fear so I played very softly softly, but that did nothing. I then tried the telling off and growling route with her, but she freaked out even more and would go mental. Gradually, over time I found the exact 'level' that she responded best to. It's a very fine line with her but when I get it right she listens. I got it very wrong a few months back and raised my voice a little too much at her as I was squashed against a gate between her and another horse and she went at it.. unfortunately because I went over that 'threshold' with her she ran backwards, reared up and broke my finger in the leadrope. :(
 
Ignore the bad behaviour, reward the good.

I can't remember where I read this before but it is golden advice (although a little hard to put into practice sometimes).

My boy will sulk if he's told off so the most effective way of dealing with his naughtiness is to just ignore it...if he walks all over me I'll just stand clear/tie him up until he's ready to go again.

Granted if the horse is bolshy to the point of danger there is more of a problem for you but maybe this maxim will help you with some of his behaviour :) good luck!
 
Daisy2 said:
He sounds bored and wants attention. Horses don't understand words per-say more the language of your body. I certainly would not smack him. Get him working outside the stable on the ground and let him rest in the stable that way he will see the stable as somewhere to relax rather than escape and demand attention from.
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Your body language says it all. Make yourself look big , square on to him and direct eye contact. try raising your arms aswell till he retreats to back of the stable then remain like that till he starts to get submissive, lowering head etc. Then whens he's ready let him come to you and gently stroke him. After recently being shown around a stud farm and all the laid back horses we were shown the stallion. Believe me the owners body language changed and the horse knew it. Didn't even say a word.
 
I have tried this - the bigger I get, the bigger he gets!

My trainer has already told me he hates being looked in the eye - she worked this out when she was lunging him once.

He was never lunged by his previous owners as he would throw himself on the floor or plunge towards them and kick out hence me getting my trainer to retrain him on the lunge.

He is much better now - unless something spooks him, then he will turn in and charge at you.

Strange boy.
 
goodtimes said:
I have tried this - the bigger I get, the bigger he gets!

My trainer has already told me he hates being looked in the eye - she worked this out when she was lunging him once.

He was never lunged by his previous owners as he would throw himself on the floor or plunge towards them and kick out hence me getting my trainer to retrain him on the lunge.

He is much better now - unless something spooks him, then he will turn in and charge at you.

Strange boy.
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Just wanted to say - sounds like he is learning to trust you and his new situation, if he's improving wiht this sort of thing, and it's great ot hear that you're trying so hard to find the right thing with him, good on you. If the lunging is improving and he's starting to trust you., I bet you'll find everything else starts to improve as well, in time.

I agree wiht all the answers about rewarding good etc - if this horse has had a bad upbringing and, as you've said, reacts badly to any sort of reprimand (becoming more dangerous) then you need to find another way to be with him, and it sounds like you're doing a great job. Well done and good luck, and let us know how it goes.
 
Morgan123 said:
Just wanted to say - sounds like he is learning to trust you and his new situation, if he's improving wiht this sort of thing, and it's great ot hear that you're trying so hard to find the right thing with him, good on you. If the lunging is improving and he's starting to trust you., I bet you'll find everything else starts to improve as well, in time.

I agree wiht all the answers about rewarding good etc - if this horse has had a bad upbringing and, as you've said, reacts badly to any sort of reprimand (becoming more dangerous) then you need to find another way to be with him, and it sounds like you're doing a great job. Well done and good luck, and let us know how it goes.
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Aw thank you - means a lot.

I suppose he has come a long way. When he first came home he would not wear boots, spinning, rearing general objections - now he happily wears them, lets me shower him, apply fly spray - so yeah, he has come a long way - I just forget that sometimes.
 
misst said:
The trouble with witholding food is surely the horse does not associate hay with "being good". Horses need food and water regardless of how they act or how good or bad you feel they are.

I understand how rewarding with a treat would work but making him hungry when he would not understand why does not make sense to me.
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I utterly agree with this. To even think of witholding hay as a punishment that the horse cannot possibly connect with the 'crime' is very ignorant & can only succeed in winding the poor animal up further.

It sound like he is displaying defensive behaviour,reassurance is what is needed in this instance.
 
I've known a couple who responded with aggression out of fear of what you would do. What seemed to work best was being very black and white with them, always giving a calm verbal 'no' before anything else, and being totally fair. They got told off exactly the same as any other horse, but as soon as there was the slightest hint of them doing anything good, they were showered with love and praise. Any over-reaction to being told off was generally ignored. So for example, horse goes to bite you, you say 'no' and raise hand to protect yourself, horse throws itself around/pulls away/swings hind quarters towards you to kick, you move calmly out of range, ignore what it's doing, then as soon as it calms down shower it with 'good boy, good boy' and give pat/treat/stroke/whatever works. Then carry on as if the incident never happened. They soon learn that actually you're fair, not particularly violent and there's no need to worry. I've seen this approach work very well, and tried it out on milder cases myself.
 
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