At last! Pssm update #3

[Nudibranch]

Finally we are getting somewhere! My lovely almost 8yo Dales has a muscle myopathy of some description. Over the last 6 months she's really struggled with energy levels, had a nasty dose of EHV, and tied up. I was spending a fortune on supplements and we had some improvement but not enough.

Then, the spring grass came through and suddenly I have my partner in crime back. We are now up to hacking 8km in walk with a bit of trot, so I'm hoping we can up it to 12 so we can do a local fun ride. Ears forward, lovely swinging stride and that Dales trot is back! She's such a responsive ride when she's well; I'm sure she can read my mind.

Now I just have to work out whether it's the grass, the supplements or the virus finally clearing up properly...

Here's a picture of the living legend from our ride this morning

 

[tda]

Great to hear this x

 

[ycbm]

Vitamin E is abundant in fresh green grass? I don't know what you already have her on in winter but I'd think of increasing it or changing to a more bioavailable form.

Lovely to read your update.
.

 

[Nudibranch]

Yes I am wondering whether it's a vitamin e issue. She's been on PE natural over winter and currently synthetic at double dose (natural was sold out last order) but possibly she needs a lot more.
Hopefully if she stays well I can try and figure it out in the autumn!

 

[ycbm]

Yes I am wondering whether it's a vitamin e issue. She's been on PE natural over winter and currently synthetic at double dose (natural was sold out last order) but possibly she needs a lot more.
Hopefully if she stays well I can try and figure it out in the autumn!

OK , my advice would be a minimum of 4000iu a day of natural in winter, given how she's behaving, more if she runs out of steam. You might have a straightforward vitamin E myopathy, which would be easy to manage except for the effect on your purse!
.

 

[SEL]

That's brilliant news - plus if she does well on grass and doesn't need restricting it makes life so much easier

 

[Fransurrey]

Hope it lasts for you. My PSSM1 boy also went into turbo cob mode with the grass coming through, but our last ride was wading through treacle again. I think the balance into 'too much grass' has been tipped.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Great to read this OP Love the behind the ears photo.

I started giving nat vitamin E back in December due to liver damage and slowly weaned my mare off it (due to liver being back to health) but noticed she was much quieter in herself. I put her back on 4,000 IU a day, baring in mind she doesn't get much fresh grass being such a good doer.. so be interesting how she goes when I next ride. @ycbm Can some horses just be deficient in Vit E? Lots must be on restricted grazing, or maybe owners do not notice the symptoms..

 

[SEL]

Hope it lasts for you. My PSSM1 boy also went into turbo cob mode with the grass coming through, but our last ride was wading through treacle again. I think the balance into 'too much grass' has been tipped.

I'm waiting for that as my mob had to go back onto the winter field after the deluge of rain last night.

I wouldn’t take something that isn’t quite sound to a competition though… there’s being in work because it is basically physio, and competing, and they are not the same

Great to read this OP Love the behind the ears photo.

I started giving nat vitamin E back in December due to liver damage and slowly weaned my mare off it (due to liver being back to health) but noticed she was much quieter in herself. I put her back on 4,000 IU a day, baring in mind she doesn't get much fresh grass being such a good doer.. so be interesting how she goes when I next ride. @ycbm Can some horses just be deficient in Vit E? Lots must be on restricted grazing, or maybe owners do not notice the symptoms..

Vitamin E deficiency causes symptoms much like a myopathy. Dr Valberg has a few papers on it if you google

 

[Titchy Reindeer]

Brilliant that she's doing well! I hope you get it all figured out to keep her at her best.

 

[PurBee]

Nutrients from fresh growing foods are far superior to nutritional supplements.
In fresh food, minerals and vits are ‘fresh and actively alive within the plant’, whereas supplemental forms are ‘inert, dried-out and dead’ in comparison.
Fresh grass is loaded with goodness if your horse tolerates it. It may well be the omega fats, as they are overall health-boosting cellularly, anti-inflammatory, and as ycbm mentioned, that added with the fresh vit e of grass gives iur horses fresh natural fats that are in their superior nutritional form.

I was surprised at the amount of omega 3 in grass, when i looked into it. Here’s a table from an article/study about cow meat flavour on grass where they measured the omega fat content of grass:

https://www.aber.ac.uk/en/media/departmental/ibers/pdf/innovations/98/98ch6.pdf

Linolenic acid is omega 3 - on average its roughly 10grams per kilo of dry matter grass - which means for every roughly 8kg of wet grass there’s 10grams of fresh omega 3 oil.
A horse grazing for 6 hours could easily eat 16kg of fresh grass giving them 20 grams of omega 3 - fresh omega 3.

That is dependent on quality of the grazing grass of the paddocks. Eating of whole fresh leaf is a healthier unstressed grass full of more nutrition than a tightly grazed paddock with just 5mm of grass leaf tips to eat.

Micronised linseed has about 18 grams per 100 g of omega 3. Taking account losses of ingestion solubility, some oxidation during processing and storing, you’d need to roughly supplement 150g to try to match amount got from grazing 6 hrs.
( i cant find figures for omega 3 content measured in cold pelleted grass nuts but would imagine thats cheaper and better to feed for omega 3 than linseed)

However, quality of a nutrient is paramount and weight becomes irrelevant really - 1 gram of omega 3 ingested in its living state from fresh plant sources will always be superior to 1 gram of dried, processed omega 3 nutrient.
Nutrients are bound to enzymes and proteins of a colloidal nature suspended in a nutrient fluid within the matrix of a living plant.
When we cut that plant, dry it out, store it, that nutritional medley of activity dies rather rapidly and all nutrients become unbound, dried-out.

I generally quit supplementing linseed when mine are getting good grass grazing. I only supplement linseed when the winter months come in and grass supply is minimal. I love mine on grass during the better months - theyre sanely lively, healthy, relaxed, actively seem to be in a good mood! The fresh nutrition from fresh grass can’t be beaten imo. The more info i read about grass nutrition the more i appreciate the lowly plant as primary king of balanced fresh nutrition for herbivores.

If yours tolerates grass well, maybe consider sourcing cold-pelleted grass leaf nuts to feed during winter. i think emerald green use a cold-pelleted process for their grass leaf nuts. You could ask to make sure. Many pellets are made using a very hot process, which destroys more delicate vitamins like vit C and destroys omega fats. So getting cold-pressed pellets will provide more nutrition, while winter grazing is slim.

Hope you have a summer of enjoyable happy hacks as you did yesterday …i love your ponies sweet ears!

 

[JackFrost]

Interested in this - I have a horse with low energy levels and always a bit tense, sharp and spooky - except when there is lots of fresh grass, this seems to calm him down and produce a much more relaxed and focused horse. I know a lot of horses get fizzy on too much spring growth but for this horse it seems to provide something that is otherwise lacking. Just trying to work out what that thing is! Be glad to hear if anyone has ideas (it's not magnesium, I've tried that).

 

[SEL]

@PurBee great post

Linseed makes one of mine itch annoyingly

 

[PurBee]

@PurBee great post

Linseed makes one of mine itch annoyingly

Linseeds have a hard shell coating - and like many seed coats, these can contain ‘anti-nutrients’ - bitter compounds that are designed to prevent animals eating all seeds so they can be squashed into the ground and germinate rather than be eaten. These bitter compounds can cause an allergic reaction. Some nutritionists call these compounds toxins, because they can cause symptoms in humans/animals. But the fact many people and animals arent seemingly affected by these compounds, i dont think its accurate to call them toxins, as we understand a toxin to be. It’s likely a case of some having gut microbes that easily neutralise these compounds better than other gut biomes. A few folk mention in here their horse doesnt tolerate linseed so it seems the reaction is fairly common.

These compounds are usually neutralised by high heat like boiling.

Have you tried pure cold-pressed linseed oil? That should contain less seed-shell ‘anti-nutrients’ than the ground-up whole seed micronised linseed.

Yet it’s worth trying to find a cold-pressed grass leaf pellet, as that will contain the natural omega 3 that grass has plenty of. When i looked for true ‘grass nuts’ i found many companies calling their pellets ‘grass nuts’ but they were made out of stemmy hay and grass leaf.
Emerald green emailed conversation assured me they harvest their grass leaf only for their grass nuts, at that time their grass for this was tall fescue as that grows very quickly and long, enabling many cuts per season for pellet making. Whether its still tall fescue leaf i dont know - emailed with them about 6yrs ago. They were very helpful and answered all questions readily, so worth shooting them an email to ask if they still provide cold-pelleted process grass leaf only.

 

[Cragrat]

Thank you for all this information Purbee!

The oil levels in grass are surprising, especially that there isn't a huge seasonal variation.

One of ours is generally itchy/skin reactive to many things, and Linseed meal definitly makes things worse. It is good to have a reason for this, and I will give oil a go.

I will also try to dind cold pressed grass nuts - I guess most are hot pressed?

 

[SEL]

I'll try the oil Purbee - she's an itchy, wheezy pony at the best of times but also a native so access to lush grass will end up in disaster.

I'm on simple systems grass nuts right now so will find out what theirs are.

Really interesting!

 

[Widgeon]

I'll try the oil Purbee

Just to bob in on this in case it's at all helpful....ours are on linseed oil and the best place I've found to buy it is https://www.thelinseedfarm.co.uk/ - £91 for 25 litres and they do free next day delivery. They're an excellent company and it's the best price I've found anywhere. I ordered a new barrel on Monday and it arrived yesterday. I don't get commission!

 

[SEL]

Just to bob in on this in case it's at all helpful....ours are on linseed oil and the best place I've found to buy it is https://www.thelinseedfarm.co.uk/ - £91 for 25 litres and they do free next day delivery. They're an excellent company and it's the best price I've found anywhere. I ordered a new barrel on Monday and it arrived yesterday. I don't get commission!

Thank you!!

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Very interesting Purbee.

Emerald green emailed conversation assured me they harvest their grass leaf only for their grass nuts, at that time their grass for this was tall fescue as that grows very quickly and long, enabling many cuts per season for pellet making. Whether its still tall fescue leaf i dont know - emailed with them about 6yrs ago. They were very helpful and answered all questions readily, so worth shooting them an email to ask if they still provide cold-pelleted process grass leaf only.

I have a sack of Emerald Grass nuts but my mare really isn’t keen on them! I’ve just bought a 20kg sack of micronised linseed as she doesn’t get much decent grass.. be interesting if it makes her itchier.

 

[PurBee]

Thank you for all this information Purbee!

The oil levels in grass are surprising, especially that there isn't a huge seasonal variation.

One of ours is generally itchy/skin reactive to many things, and Linseed meal definitly makes things worse. It is good to have a reason for this, and I will give oil a go.

I will also try to dind cold pressed grass nuts - I guess most are hot pressed?

It surprised me the months of grass tested weren’t all that disimilar, which is encouraging! We know as soon as we can get them out on grass, theyll be getting a good amount of fresh omegas

Yes, the heat produced from the common industrial biomass pelleting machines is rather high, high enough to break bonds of fatty acids and destroy the more delicate vitamins like vit C.
I was recently shopping for a small-scale farm one to make my own biofuels/horse dung fertiliser pellets and the pelleting process of them runs rather hot. Many larger industrial ones are temperature controlled, @ 100-300C. This would be ok for my purposes, but if I wanted to make my own grass pellets from my fields, i’d want a machine that runs cold and hot, which are eye-wateringly expensive!

There is now a small market of cool-run pellet machines where 40C is possible - i’ve seen a minority of feed pellet manufacturers mention they use cool-pellet methods to retain nutrients. Unless that is mentioned, it’s likely the pellet was formed using the usual large industrial hot pelleting machines.

There’s advantages to hot pellets of hay though, for instance - the heat will kill some bacteria and mould spores making a good clean fibre mineral feed pellet. There will be existing minerals from hay still in the pellet, but the fats and some vitamins will have been destroyed at those high temperatures.
So if i wanted more fibre and minerals for my tooth-challenged horse, or couldnt find decent mould-free hay, or just wanted a good clean fibre pellet as additional feed, i’d look for a high heat hay pellet, and feed balancer vits/fats as extra. Hay stalks compared to fresh grass are not the same nutritionally, so the losses of fats/vitamins from hay i wouldnt be too fussed about.
If i wanted the whole nutrition from grass, i’d give a cold-pressed grass pellet.

 

[Birker2020]

Great update, so pleased for you.

 

[PurBee]

Very interesting Purbee.



I have a sack of Emerald Grass nuts but my mare really isn’t keen on them! I’ve just bought a 20kg sack of micronised linseed as she doesn’t get much decent grass.. be interesting if it makes her itchier.

That’s interesting your mare isnt into the EG grass nuts. The long leaves of tall fescue are not hugely high in sugar - it’s quite a fibrous dry grass leaf.
It’s planted in heavier soils here in ireland commonly, and i have it on my land. The leaves grow amazingly long, but my own horses don’t eat them first, if there’s plenty of other sweeter grasses to eat, telling me theyre so not high in sugars, than the other grasses. They do enjoy them though as they’ll even escape their field to grab the patch of very long tall fescue leaves!

Maybe if you try adding a jug of luke-warm water to rehydrate them, and release the grassy odours she’ll be more interested?

Maybe get in touch with EG and ask if they now do a mixed grass leaf nut - explain your mare isnt so keen on the current nut. (If that is still tall fescue). You may sow an idea in their product-line I expect they use tall fescue as it is low sugar/high fibre, so would suit the EMS/lami prone equines too.
The other fast growing grasses are the hybrid and italian ryegrasses, which are higher in sugar, so they’d likely not want to use that exclusively and cut-out potential customers of EMS equines.

When i moved to this land there were literally ‘humps’ of tall fescue all over the fields. It hadnt been grazed or cut for 50yrs, abandoned farm, and the tall fesue had rooted so deeply, and grew a root stock like tree stumps above the soil level that were 1-2 foot tall! I ended up having to use a flail mower and annually grind them down inch by inch. We spent a few years tripping up on tall fescue humps in the fields A circular saw on a strimmer didnt work. In places i used a mattock and dug them out but couldnt do that on 7 acres. A chainsaw didnt work either as there was too much mud mixed in with the roots and easily blunted the blade. Tall fescue is a mighty grass, and can withstand the worst wet heavy soils. Its not high in sugar, and very fibrous so is a good grazing grass for all grazers - i see why they planted it everywhere here.